The Flesh & The Spirit

[justaname]

Father allow me to humble myself so I may teach. Holy Spirit open eyes and ears so none can refute your truth.


First let us take the name Jesus
Matthew 1 : 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Ask yourself this. Am I saved? Am I his? If I am, who saves me? Clearly from this verse it is Jesus who saves.

Isaiah 46 : 21-23
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together; who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me and ye be saved, all ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

From here it is the Lord who saves, and the Lord is God. He is a just God and Saviour. Look unto him and be saved.

And Paul writes in
Philippians 2 : 5-11
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Here every tongue confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Paul says "Who, being in the form of God,"

Ask yourself this. Is anyone else called Lord, or Saviour, or Emmanuel? From his very name Jesus we see he saves us. He is the Son of Adam, Jesus of Nazareth (the man you try reducing him to), also first and only begotten Son of the Almighty, Jesus Christ, and Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. Only God can save. Are you one of his chosen? Have you been called by the Father?

Jesus being born of woman, took on flesh and blood. He was fully man. Every man on earth who saw Jesus, saw this image.
That which was conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost. He was fully God. No man with their eyes could see unto the Spirit, from which the temple was led.

No man has seen God. Truth. It was not until Thomas saw the wounds did he exclaim. And at that did Thomas see into Jesus' Spirit? Has he seen all the faces of God? No man knows the depths of the Father.

God was seen as a cloud. God passed by Moses. God was here in Jesus Emmanuel. Jesus and God are one. Jesus is God's word. He was sent from Heaven for no one was worthy. None could complete the task of the law. Salvation comes not from man, but from God. Yet Jesus is our head, for suffered the flesh, and salvation is through him. Is that not God's power?

His temple was received in Heaven. He saw the Father, yet no man has seen the Father. Is not their relationship beautiful?


John 1 : 1, John 1 : 14, Isaiah 9 : 6, 1 Timothy 3 : 16, Matthew 1 : 23, Phillipans 2 : 6

What you argue has validity. You see I wrestled with that myself. I have heard word from the Almighty, trust the Son. Jesus did not come the first time to set up Kingdom. The Jews believed this. Satan believed this. He came to tear the vail, so we might come to know God. Not all things were revealed to him either. We know this from his reply to the timing of his second coming. With this said he is no normal man. Are you or anyone you know the direct spawn of God? Can you walk on water? Will you tell the fig tree to wither? He was/is the perfect host for God. God is not limited to his Son, for nothing can contain him. Yet it was the Fathers plan for us to come to him in this manner. I will not judge the plan of the Father. Let me put it to you like this, do you know all the depths of your soul? My limits will be set by my God and Saviour Jesus Christ, in whom I have put all my trust.

May God Bless His Truth

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this recently. This is what I believe. I believe Jesus is God and that Jesus never had a sinful nature.

[sup]Titus 2:13[/sup] while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Colossians 1: [sup]15[/sup] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [sup]17[/sup] He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [sup]18[/sup] And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [sup]19[/sup] For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [sup]20[/sup] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The evidence in support of the deity of Christ as God is just too powerful. One of the most powerful statements Jesus made regarding this is:

[sup]54[/sup] Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [sup]55[/sup] Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [sup]56[/sup] Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

[sup]57[/sup] “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

[sup]58[/sup] “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [sup]59[/sup] At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.





I was listening to a teaching by Charlie Campbell who reminded me that "begotten" doesn't necessarily mean "created" into existence. Jesus conception was by the Spirit, both which existed before time began. That though Christ was born in time, He existed before time began in both plan and His very person.




I had to struggle out whether or not Jesus had to have a sin nature in order to experience what it means to be human and to experience temptation. The only way I could reconcile this was if somehow God by nature has a sinful nature that must be subdued in order for Him to sustain His character. But all that is required to be tempted is desire. And there are two types of desire, those that stem from our needs (hunger, intimacy, etc.) and the other stems from our wants (God's desire to love us unconditionally though God needs nothing to survive since He is self sustaining). Adam and Eve both sinned before they had a sinful nature, which means they had a desire, and chose to meet that desire against the will of God. There is nothing innate in the flesh that is sinful. Hunger is not sinful. The physical is not sinful. Desire and need and want are not in themself sinful. In conclusion, Jesus did not require a sinful nature in order to experience human need and desire to the utmost of what we would/could/should ever experience. Hopefully each of us can reconcile by Christ's standard what it truly means to be human.





Jesus and God definitely serve one another in their own respects positionally. You can pull them so far apart that you can recognize two complete individuals, but not so far apart that you can't recognize either one as truly being God.

 

[Alethos]

Father allow me to humble myself so I may teach. Holy Spirit open eyes and ears so none can refute your truth.


First let us take the name Jesus
Matthew 1 : 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Ask yourself this. Am I saved? Am I his? If I am, who saves me? Clearly from this verse it is Jesus who saves.

Isaiah 46 : 21-23
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together; who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me and ye be saved, all ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

From here it is the Lord who saves, and the Lord is God. He is a just God and Saviour. Look unto him and be saved.

And Paul writes in
Philippians 2 : 5-11
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Here every tongue confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Paul says "Who, being in the form of God,"

Ask yourself this. Is anyone else called Lord, or Saviour, or Emmanuel? From his very name Jesus we see he saves us. He is the Son of Adam, Jesus of Nazareth (the man you try reducing him to), also first and only begotten Son of the Almighty, Jesus Christ, and Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. Only God can save. Are you one of his chosen? Have you been called by the Father?

Jesus being born of woman, took on flesh and blood. He was fully man. Every man on earth who saw Jesus, saw this image.
That which was conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost. He was fully God. No man with their eyes could see unto the Spirit, from which the temple was led.

No man has seen God. Truth. It was not until Thomas saw the wounds did he exclaim. And at that did Thomas see into Jesus' Spirit? Has he seen all the faces of God? No man knows the depths of the Father.

God was seen as a cloud. God passed by Moses. God was here in Jesus Emmanuel. Jesus and God are one. Jesus is God's word. He was sent from Heaven for no one was worthy. None could complete the task of the law. Salvation comes not from man, but from God. Yet Jesus is our head, for suffered the flesh, and salvation is through him. Is that not God's power?

His temple was received in Heaven. He saw the Father, yet no man has seen the Father. Is not their relationship beautiful?


John 1 : 1, John 1 : 14, Isaiah 9 : 6, 1 Timothy 3 : 16, Matthew 1 : 23, Phillipans 2 : 6

What you argue has validity. You see I wrestled with that myself. I have heard word from the Almighty, trust the Son. Jesus did not come the first time to set up Kingdom. The Jews believed this. Satan believed this. He came to tear the vail, so we might come to know God. Not all things were revealed to him either. We know this from his reply to the timing of his second coming. With this said he is no normal man. Are you or anyone you know the direct spawn of God? Can you walk on water? Will you tell the fig tree to wither? He was/is the perfect host for God. God is not limited to his Son, for nothing can contain him. Yet it was the Fathers plan for us to come to him in this manner. I will not judge the plan of the Father. Let me put it to you like this, do you know all the depths of your soul? My limits will be set by my God and Saviour Jesus Christ, in whom I have put all my trust.

May God Bless His Truth

Thank you for your thoughts.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phil 2:6-7

“form of God” to mean Jesus “is” God?

Do you think this is a right use of Scripture?

The original Greek word actually implies a much different and more accurate interpretation than the one you have provided.

Jesus’ nature Gr "morphe of God") form, shape, figure, fashion is much different to the exact form; it has to do with appearance. "morphe of God" means: demeanour, character, attitude, rank, standing. Its only other usage is in Mark 16:12. This word is used of visible shapes, but may also be used of abstract things as well: i.e. 2 Ti 3:5 "a form (morphosin) of godliness"; and Gal 4:19 "until Christ be formed in you".

Again we come back to the divine mind revealing the Character dwelling in the Son. This mind of the Spirit is what vindicated him and “made” Jesus (the man) righteous. But while in his flesh where the enmity lay, he was only in the form of God in Character, standing, attitude etc.

In Eph 2:15 are you saying that God (Himself) had enmity in His Flesh? God cannot transform Himself and dwell in flesh!

Justanaman this is impossible and irreconcilable not to mention totally against every Scripture we know about the Father and His Absolute Holiness Dwelling in Light Unapproachable.

Jesus is in God’s moral image: Heb 1:3; Col 1:15.which gave him a divine status or rank by reason of the unique manner of his birth: John 1:14,18; 17:6,26; Luk 20:42-44 (cited from Psa 110); John 13:13,14.

Justaname, I pray the next lesson will rest on you gently.

The absolute KEY to unlocking this scripture is the idea that Jesus was the "form” of a servant! Which implies his rank or standing before his Father was one of servitude, although his mind was in total harmony with the Father.

Does God serve God? Can God become a servant and Serve Himself?

Does God need to empty Himself? Of what? Does God have two minds?

Does God need to become anything but what HE is?

Does God need to Grasp at anything?

Does God need to make Himself nothing?

Can God who is Spirit be in Human Likeness (repugnant)?

For Christ to have had equality with God, therefore required him to unlawfully take to himself something which he did not have! But you say otherwise?

So how does this read..

“God grasping at being God, although already being God, thought it not robbery to be God?

“SOMETHING TO BE GRASPED”​

"Robbery" (AV) "harpagmos": the act of seizing, robbery, ie, something which belongs to someone else, which is unlawfully taken by another!

So you have God seizing upon something which already belongs to himself?

No!

Jesus is not God. Jesus was a servant unto death and he was raised up by the Father and given rightly the nature of God and sits now at His right side awaiting His command.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this recently. This is what I believe. I believe Jesus is God and that Jesus never had a sinful nature.

[sup]Titus 2:13[/sup] while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Colossians 1: [sup]15[/sup] The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [sup]16[/sup] For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [sup]17[/sup] He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [sup]18[/sup] And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [sup]19[/sup] For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [sup]20[/sup] and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

The evidence in support of the deity of Christ as God is just too powerful. One of the most powerful statements Jesus made regarding this is:

[sup]54[/sup] Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [sup]55[/sup] Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [sup]56[/sup] Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

[sup]57[/sup] “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

[sup]58[/sup] “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [sup]59[/sup] At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.





I was listening to a teaching by Charlie Campbell who reminded me that "begotten" doesn't necessarily mean "created" into existence. Jesus conception was by the Spirit, both which existed before time began. That though Christ was born in time, He existed before time began in both plan and His very person.




I had to struggle out whether or not Jesus had to have a sin nature in order to experience what it means to be human and to experience temptation. The only way I could reconcile this was if somehow God by nature has a sinful nature that must be subdued in order for Him to sustain His character. But all that is required to be tempted is desire. And there are two types of desire, those that stem from our needs (hunger, intimacy, etc.) and the other stems from our wants (God's desire to love us unconditionally though God needs nothing to survive since He is self sustaining). Adam and Eve both sinned before they had a sinful nature, which means they had a desire, and chose to meet that desire against the will of God. There is nothing innate in the flesh that is sinful. Hunger is not sinful. The physical is not sinful. Desire and need and want are not in themself sinful. In conclusion, Jesus did not require a sinful nature in order to experience human need and desire to the utmost of what we would/could/should ever experience. Hopefully each of us can reconcile by Christ's standard what it truly means to be human.

Jesus and God definitely serve one another in their own respects positionally. You can pull them so far apart that you can recognize two complete individuals, but not so far apart that you can't recognize either one as truly being God.

Hi Martin,

Please read the Blood of Christ series (2 parts - more to come)... your above view may change somewhat.

Alethos

p.s Icouldnt help but notice you only used verses whcih speak to Jesus' exalted position, its a shame you didnt balance your thoughts from those scriptures already provided. Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15 2 Cor 5:21 all of Rom 8 and Eph 5 most of Johns Epistles and so on.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

To add to why I believe Christ was born without a sinful nature and to why I believe Adam and Eve were created without that nature:

God created Adam and Eve in His image. God would have had to have had a sinful nature for Adam and Eve to have been created with that nature. And for God to have a sinful nature would contradict the meaning of "Good", because good in it's definition doesn't require evil to constitute itself. God would be in contradiction of His character if Christ was born any other way. Christ was the second Adam, born without sin, but He had victory over every temptation we experience that would lead any one of us into sin. If Christ had sinned then he would have acquired a sinful nature like Adam, but I think we agree that that is an impossibility.

 

[Selene]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phil 2:6-7

“form of God” to mean Jesus “is” God?

Do you think this is a right use of Scripture?

Yes, this scripture is saying that Jesus is God because He is in the form of God and equal to God. What man on earth is equal to God? The Bible says that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because Jesus made Himself not only the Son of God, but even equal to God (See John 5:18).

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God. Jesus is equal to God because He is God. However, His human nature is not equal to God because His human nature came from Mary. This is why in the Bible, Jesus says that the Father is greater than Him (John 14:28). He was referring to His human nature.

The Early Christians believed that Jesus is God. God loved the world and wanted to become one with us that He came down to meet us. This is what the Early Christians have always believed that Jesus is God. Below are just a sample from documents written by the Early Christians in the first and second centuries and all of them testify that Christ is God.

1. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).

2. "For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).

3. "We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 21 (c. A.D. 175).

4. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).

5. "For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man." Novatian, Concerning the Trinity, 11 (A.D. 235).


6. If of Christ; he could not become His temple, since he denies that Christ is God." Cyprian, To Jubaianus, Epistle 72[73]:12 (A.D. 256).

 

[Alethos]

Yes, this scripture is saying that Jesus is God because He is in the form of God and equal to God. What man on earth is equal to God? The Bible says that the Jews tried to kill Jesus because Jesus made Himself not only the Son of God, but even equal to God (See John 5:18).

Jesus is 100% human and 100% God. Jesus is equal to God because He is God. However, His human nature is not equal to God because His human nature came from Mary. This is why in the Bible, Jesus says that the Father is greater than Him (John 14:28). He was referring to His human nature.

The Early Christians believed that Jesus is God. God loved the world and wanted to become one with us that He came down to meet us. This is what the Early Christians have always believed that Jesus is God. Below are just a sample from documents written by the Early Christians in the first and second centuries and all of them testify that Christ is God.

1. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin." Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 7 (A.D. 110).

2. "For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God." Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).

3. "We do not act as fools, O Greeks, nor utter idle tales, when we announce that God was born in the form of a man." Tatian the Syrian, Oration Against the Greeks, 21 (c. A.D. 175).

4. But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one--that is, God." Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).

5. "For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man." Novatian, Concerning the Trinity, 11 (A.D. 235).


6. If of Christ; he could not become His temple, since he denies that Christ is God." Cyprian, To Jubaianus, Epistle 72[73]:12 (A.D. 256).

Seline, read over the list of 6 points and ask me are these inspired prophets and apostles?

I know exactly where the doctrine of the trinity originated, but never before have I encounter one to "blatantly" quote the creeds of men to support a Bible teaching? I don’t quite know how to respond to this?

I am left wondering where do I start? how do I convey to you the clarity of this error? And how can one guide you back into the Living Word of God to discover a living truth.

However you take me to sinful men who Peter tells us are “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, [sup]25[/sup] but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word that was preached to you. Many like yourself hold the doctrine of the Trinity, imagine if an emperor today rose up and designed such a doctrine, you no doubt would strongly refute it, however this happened 1700 years ago and is accepted as truth.

I can only suggest you read Constantine’s Trinity and test it against the Word...I encourage you to pray for Gods wisdom and search the Scriptures deeply, asking lots of questions of the Father.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

To add to why I believe Christ was born without a sinful nature and to why I believe Adam and Eve were created without that nature:

God created Adam and Eve in His image. God would have had to have had a sinful nature for Adam and Eve to have been created with that nature. And for God to have a sinful nature would contradict the meaning of "Good", because good in it's definition doesn't require evil to constitute itself. God would be in contradiction of His character if Christ was born any other way. Christ was the second Adam, born without sin, but He had victory over every temptation we experience that would lead any one of us into sin. If Christ had sinned then he would have acquired a sinful nature like Adam, but I think we agree that that is an impossibility.

Their nature before their fall was "good", they neither were mortal or immortal - their existence is something difficult for us to comprehend - I will not try to so here.

However their nature after the fall changed; they became corrupting creature which returned back the ground from whence they were taken. Notice Gen 5:3 yes no longer was man in Gods likeness thereafter his children are in his (sinful) likeness. Jesus inherited this same nature 2 Cor 5:21 Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15. The law in the flesh members which prompted temptation and sin needed to be destroyed. Jesus MUST need have this in him to destroy it!

I am sure you won’t refute this truth either esle how can he be your Captain?

How did he "free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death".

While you hold onto the doctrine of the trinity you will not come to a correct understanding of the victory of Jesus Christ. I must admit, its a big step of faith, but one which must happen.

Alethos

 

[Selene]

Seline, read over the list of 6 points and ask me are these inspired prophets and apostles?

I know exactly where the doctrine of the trinity originated, but never before have I encounter one to "blatantly" quote the creeds of men to support a Bible teaching? I don’t quite know how to respond to this?

I am left wondering where do I start? how do I convey to you the clarity of this error? And how can one guide you back into the Living Word of God to discover a living truth.

However you take me to sinful men who Peter tells us are “All people are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, [sup]25[/sup] but the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word that was preached to you. Many like yourself hold the doctrine of the Trinity, imagine if an emperor today rose up and designed such a doctrine, you no doubt would strongly refute it, however this happened 1700 years ago and is accepted as truth.

I can only suggest you read Constantine’s Trinity and test it against the Word...I encourage you to pray for Gods wisdom and search the Scriptures deeply, asking lots of questions of the Father.

Alethos

Hello Truth,

The Early Christians from the first and second centuries believed that Jesus is God because the Apostles of Christ taught them that Jesus is God. It wasn't until the fourth century when men started to question Christ's divinity. The God we believe in not only knows about humility, but also knows humility from experience. The God we believe in knows humility because He humbled Himself in the form of man so that He could be close to us. The god you believe in is a distant god who teaches you to be humble but does not know how to be humble himself.

The God we believe in knows much more about death and about human sufferings because He has experienced death and sufferings Himself. What does your god know about death and human suffering when he has never experienced any of those? Perhaps, he has knowledge of death and human suffering, but his knowledge is very limited considering that he has no experience of it. Humans know much more about death and human suffering than your god. But the God we believe in knows everything and even experienced what humans have experienced. Jesus is God, and God is three persons in one. And because God is three persons in one, our God knows very well about relationships because He has been in a relationship with the Son and Holy Spirit since the beginning. Your god is alone and knows nothing about relationships.

In Christ,
Selene

 

[aspen]

The Early Christians from the first and second centuries believed that Jesus is God because the Apostles of Christ taught them that. It wasn't until the fourth century when men started to question Christ's divinity. The God we believe in not only knows about humility, but also knows humility from experience. The God we believe in knows humility because He humbled Himself in the form of man so that He could be close to us. The god you believe in is a distant god who teaches you to be humble but does not know how to be humble himself.

Excellent. You know, I am learning to respect how thorough duckybill is when it comes to producing verses in context........he is concrete at times, but he knows his scripture and I finding myself inspired.

 

[Alethos]

Perhaps, he has knowledge of death and human suffering, but his knowledge is very limited considering that he has no experience of it.
In Christ,
Selene

Selene

You profess to teach about God and yet not one verse is quoted? You may take this comment rather hard, I expect you will. Your above statement is a sign of your ignorance arrogance toward the God of Heaven and Earth and His riches. I would be ashamed of those professing Christians on this forum, if I was the only one to correct this foolishness.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

And you say He is very limited!

Maybe while you are stewing over this post you can spend a little time looking at these verses and hopefully you will not return without reverence and fear of the Almighty.

Psa 36:6 Rom 9:23; 10:12; Eph 3:18,19

Alethos

ps. My God is alone! For the past two Thousand years He has His Son at His right side (sitting next to Him) and before that legions of Angels without number, who stand before him continally singing praises to Father and Son day and night. These Angels do His work always Eze 37:9; Dan 7:2; Rev 7:1. They are His vehicles of power Heb 1:7,14 Gen 3:24

 

[Alethos]

The Early Christians from the first and second centuries believed that Jesus is God because the Apostles of Christ taught them that Jesus is God. It wasn't until the fourth century when men started to question Christ's divinity. The God we believe in not only knows about humility, but also knows humility from experience. The God we believe in knows humility because He humbled Himself in the form of man so that He could be close to us. The god you believe in is a distant god who teaches you to be humble but does not know how to be humble himself.

Ancient Egypt
If they led a life in conformance with the precepts of the Goddess Maat, who represented truth and right living, the person was welcomed into the Two Fields. If found guilty the person was thrown to a “devourer” and didn't share in eternal life.The person who is taken by the devourer is subject first to terrifying punishment and then annihilated. These depictions of punishment may have influenced medieval perceptions of the inferno in hell via early Christian and Coptic texts.Purification for those who are considered justified may be found in the descriptions of “Flame Island”, where they experience the triumph over evil and rebirth. For the dammed complete destruction into a state of non being awaits but there is no suggestion of eternal torture; the weighing of the heart in Egyptian Mythology can lead to annihilation.Divine pardon at judgement was always a central concern for the Ancient Egyptians.

"These depictions of punishment may have influenced medieval perceptions of the inferno in hell via early Christian and Coptic texts"

No, you dont say!

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Excellent. You know, I am learning to respect how thorough duckybill is when it comes to producing verses in context........he is concrete at times, but he knows his scripture and I finding myself inspired.

Thank you for the very nice compliment. I respect those who are sincere. I'm sure there will be many in God's eternal Kingdom who disagree with me about many things. I do look forward to meeting you and all of God's children whom we will spend eternity with in His wonderful everlasting Kingdom! But I truly believe there are MANY who have blasphemed God's Holy Spirit and have no hope.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

2 Corinthians 5:21- I think it is one thing to be made sin, and another to be made sinful. Sin was attached to His identity on the cross since He took our sin put it to death in Himself, because there was no sin found in Him. That separation was just as much in spirit as it was His flesh, but that does not affect his nature or character. Hebrews 2:14- talks about Jesus' humanity which isn't in question. Hebrews 4:15- Jesus' nature didn't have to be sinful for Him to have experienced our temptation the way we do. Jesus experienced every repercussion of our sinfulness in himself.

"While you hold onto the doctrine of the trinity you will not come to a correct understanding of the victory of Jesus Christ. I must admit, its a big step of faith, but one which must happen."

I do my best to never judge the character of any individual based on their understanding of doctrine outside of Jesus Christ dead and raised and as Lord and Savior, especially those I don't know online. I know truth isn't dependent on what I think of truth so if what you are saying is true what anyone else thinks won't make it any less true. That being said, I warn everyone on this forum not to undermine the work and faith God is developing in any one person's life here on the forum. We don't demolish individuals here, thinking their argument won't stand because of it, but truth does not require a defender and defends itself quite well, it just needs to be brought forth.

I have learned a lot from you concerning the positional authority and identity of God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. You know more about it than most, and it has helped me a great deal reading about it on this forum.

-edit- and, uh, by truth I mean the characteristic truth, not you, the person Truth. That might have been confusing.

 

[[email protected]]

Ducky said:There is nothing to reconcile. The Scriptures are true. You are trying to explain the INFINITE Almighty God. Lots of luck.

I understand.

The two greatest Bible studies are God and Jesus and its impossible to explain them or their relationship!

Alethos



Very true statement rjp

1 John 4:2 & 2 John 1:7

I believe the emphasis is on his flesh.

I wonder why? And what does it mean to be "in flesh"?

Alethos

The basic meaning is that Jesus is God-as-manflesh. Jesus had the same flesh as all men do. His spirit was that of God and His mind was like-minded with God instead of like-minded with passions and lust as most men are. Because Jesus lived in the flesh He had to do battle with it's lusts as we do, but without the tendency to yield to it and commit sin. The yielding part is important. All men yield to their temptations at one time or another. Jesus never did. At this point He is something of a hero to me as well as a role model.

1 John 4:2 is a confusing passage to some.
Most use it as a rubber stamp kind of doctrine to identify spirits.
The verse does not refer to spirits!
DO NOT use it to ID ANY spirit.

I strongly encourage the reader here to consult scholarly commentaries and interpretations before proceeding further.
1 John 4:2-3 is referring to men (as teachers) and the precepts of men - NOT SPIRITS.
For example, it is thought by some to refer to Jews who do not recognize Jesus as God.

Here's a thumb nail sketch of why we can't use this verse to ID spirits.

The Holy Spirit and the holy angels will ALWAYS glorify Christ.
They never do anything to draw attention to themselves.
They practice humility and men will do well to follow their example.

BUT.....
There are two classes of false spirits that we need to be wary of.
One is generally referred to as demons.
They are the fallen or 'grounded' angels (there is some suggestion that they cannot fly as holy angels do, but that's another subject)
Demons do not, as a rule, admit to any positive thing about God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
They are constantly and continually full of denial, curses and vile accusations regarding the holy.

Second is generally referred to as unclean spirits.
These ARE NOT demons.
In fact, scripture sometimes states that they openly recognize certain people as servants of God. (see Acts 16:16-18)
I have spoken to missionaries in S.A. that have encountered unclean spirits.
I have been unfortunate enough to encounter some myself.
My experience agrees with theirs.

The encounter actually leaves you feeling really very dirty.
So much so that I had to take a shower and put on clean clothing afterwards.
It was physically disgusting.
Not for nothing are they called unclean spirits.
They are filthy things and any contact with them leaves you feeling soiled.
I AM NOT KIDDING!
SCRIPTURAL DESCRIPTIONS ARE NOT METAPHORICAL - THEY ARE LITERAL.

If you have encountered the Holy Spirit or a holy angel you will remember how clean it left you feeling.
Unclean spirits really actually leave you feeling foul.

The bottom line for ANY spiritual encounter is to NEVER engage either a demon or unclean spirit in conversation.
That's a rule, boys and girls!
Never means never under any circumstance. Period.

Returning to the meaning of 1 John4:2-3 and remembering that one ought not question or speak to a spirit, how might one determine that a spirit does or does not confess Jesus has come in the flesh?

The answer is that the verse refers to the doctrines of men, not to spiritual identification.

If you think you have been approached by a spirit and do not know it's origin, pray to Jesus NOT the spirit.
Let Jesus sort things out. It's His job, not ours.
It's the only way to be sure - and safe.

 

[Alethos]

It is interesting the actual only occurrences of the word "antichrist" are found in John's letters and we find them associated with Jesus being made flesh? I find it also interesting that those who confess the trinity doctrine cannot bring themselves to acknowledge Jesus was made sin for us and suffered "in" the same flesh as we do today 2 Cor 5:21 Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15

These people would have people believe that God Himself can dwell, or be made sin!

They are wrong and the scriptures prove their doctrine to be false.

"By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit (mind) which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit (thinking) of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already." (1 John 4.2-3 RSV)

"For many deceivers (false message) have gone out into the world, men who will not acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh; such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 7 RSV)

The inspired word of the Apostle John states very clearly, everyone who does not acknowledge that Jesus Christ came "in the flesh" is a of antichrist!

Why did John write these words?

There were people in his day who claimed Jesus was a “spirit” who only used a body for 33 years and then discarded the body when he died. Sadly, there people in this forum who believe and teach Jesus was a pre-existing spirit who took on a body during his life on earth and then left his body when it was killed.

The apostle John states very clearly these people have the antichrist teaching, because it separates Jesus from his body, and teaches falsely that Jesus did not really come "in the flesh", as these people believe falsely he could exist without the body.

Many times in various posts we have seen the truth of the matter, that Jesus was born of a human mother, with God as his father (Luke 1: 34,35; 2 John 3). Because Jesus’ mother was human, Jesus therefore inherited a nature like ours, which can be tempted to sin (Matthew 4:4; Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:15), and like all people from the days of Adam Jesus inherited mortality (Romans 5:12-14). I have stated from Scriptures the body of Jesus was exactly like ours, no difference at all, and he could no more leave his body, than we can leave our own. We know when the body of Jesus died, Jesus died also and in fact remained dead for three days (Acts 2:23-32; Matthew 16:21). After this period of darkness in the grave Jesus (with his body) was resurrected and his body was changed to flesh and spirit, instead of flesh and blood (Luke 24:36-43; Acts 2:24,32). What did Jesus himself say after his resurrection:

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." (Luke 24:39 RSV)

Rjp, you cannot refute this truth, no doubt you will hold onto your expert commentaries as many have not thought about this topic for themselves.

The Bible explains to us very clearly that Jesus Christ came in actual FLESH styled "in the flesh".

You have God warning upon you rjp in His Word that to separate Jesus from his flesh is deadly wrong!!! For this you are teaching the mind of the antichrist.

You cannot help but notice how John uses "antichrist" to describe a group who teach that that Jesus Christ did not really come "in the flesh".

Selene is correct in that this false teaching of the Trinity was alive and well in various forms but has its root in Egyptian mythology.

I actual believe many Christians here are very loving caring people who sadly taken to themselves lies, theories which cannot fit the inspired Word, though they try!

Therefore fellow believers I leave you with a very important verse, one I have used in this forum time and time again.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Jesus Christ “in” the flesh and was made sin for us that we might be partakes of eternal life. 2 Cor 5:21

Alethos

 

[Selene]

Selene is correct in that this false teaching of the Trinity was alive and well in various forms but has its root in Egyptian mythology.

Where in my post did I say such a thing? I never even mention Egyptian mythology in any of my posts.

 

[Alethos]

Where in my post did I say such a thing? I never even mention Egyptian mythology in any of my posts.

You stated it was being taught in the first century AD. You make the false statement the Apostles were teaching such doctrine but 1 John 4:2-3 & 2 John 7 show you are mistaken. The false teachings of Hell, Trinity & Heaven going has its roots in Egyptian Mythology, and further back (but thats another lesson), you have been led to believe in these doctrines by fallible men, and not of God and His Word.

Should you search the Bible for yourself without these pre conceived beliefs...well, you wouldnt say such things.

Do you believe Jesus came "in" the flesh?
Do you believe God could dwell in sinful nature?
Do you believe God as you quote has "very limited power and understanding"

I could only imagine how correcting the Apostle John would be if he were writing to you?

You understanding is in the world, in Nicene Creed and other such man made dogmas. Even the Catholic Church toady acknowledge openly the Trinity has no basis in Scripture and as such we find no word in all the Bible as Trinity!

1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.


A lot here like to listen to each other and their devils and three gods in one, their make believe fantasies. Truth has clarity and stands apart from those who speak of this world.

1Jn 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

And what is truth Selene?

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

You fail to see the beauty & His bountiful love shown in offering of His only-begotten son John 3:16; Rom 5:5,6; 8:32)

You would prefer God to kill Himself :blink:



I offer you true teaching in the hope of Titus 1:11 being applied.

But so far you have not shown yourself to be teachable from the inspired Word.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

God is the creator of all things, Jesus Christ included. God spoke things into being, Jesus being His very Word. God created God's son and temple. I can can think of no greater creation. Jesus was not sin ever, a suitable temple for God, ordained from inception of God who was, and is, and will be. His proof is in His Word, Jesus. By his very name are you saved and there is only one God. Check your scriptures. Jesus Christ is Lord. His name is justified, vindicated, Loved and proclaimed.


Obedient host of the Almighty. One with the Father. The very word given by such a creation gives life, and has given life from the beginning, for being sent from Heaven, the Father does not fail. The Father can do as He choses, being love as His nature. That which was created, Jesus' temple, is righteousness. We who proclaim it glorifies that which was created sharing in righteousness. But that which created needs no justification and is glorified by His creation.

Scripture tells us Jesus Christ=God, proclaim his name. I have posted mine proof. What you speak of is temple, not Spirit. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and will return. Jesus being the very Word of God Almighty was/is Spirit in the flesh. The Father spoke of His coming through His Word written, told, and His flesh. You do not know the depths of the Father and Son, and you can not limit God. Jesus Christ is risen, justified to the non believer, so they may stand convicted. God does not fail ever. He did for us what no man could do. Thank you Father for your great and masterful plan.
Take heed from a Son, and humble thyself, and see the Glory which is God.

 

[Alethos]

God is the creator of all things, Jesus Christ included. God spoke things into being, Jesus being His very Word. God created God's son and temple. I can can think of no greater creation. Jesus was not sin ever, a suitable temple for God, ordained from inception of God who was, and is, and will be. His proof is in His Word, Jesus. By his very name are you saved and there is only one God. Check your scriptures. Jesus Christ is Lord. His name is justified, vindicated, Loved and proclaimed.


Obedient host of the Almighty. One with the Father. The very word given by such a creation gives life, and has given life from the beginning, for being sent from Heaven, the Father does not fail. The Father can do as He choses, being love as His nature. That which was created, Jesus' temple, is righteousness. We who proclaim it glorifies that which was created sharing in righteousness. But that which created needs no justification and is glorified by His creation.

Scripture tells us Jesus Christ=God, proclaim his name. I have posted mine proof. What you speak of is temple, not Spirit. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and will return. Jesus being the very Word of God Almighty was/is Spirit in the flesh. The Father spoke of His coming through His Word written, told, and His flesh. You do not know the depths of the Father and Son, and you can not limit God. Jesus Christ is risen, justified to the non believer, so they may stand convicted. God does not fail ever. He did for us what no man could do. Thank you Father for your great and masterful plan.
Take heed from a Son, and humble thyself, and see the Glory which is God.

How can I respond? Not one Bible verse provided.

I understand....2 Tim 4:4 can only apply.


Alethos