The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[Eternally Grateful]

Which question?

Why mary had to be sinless considering she gave birth to a child who suffered from the result of sin (the fall)

Jesus was not born as Adam was. He died. Adam would never have died if he never sinned.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Mary didn't need a saviour because she personally sinned.
She needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin as explained in post #646

If mary never sinned, She never brok any commandments

If she never broke a commandment. She never came under the curse of the law

If she never came under the curse of the law. She did not need animal sacrifice to atone for her sin

She saved herself. She earned her right to heaven.

Paul tells us he who knew no sin became sin for us. so that we may be made right with God

He also tells us, by the law no one could be justified because cursed is the one who does not obey every word (according to you Mary never sinned so she would never be under a curse)

 

[Pearl]

The Bible Teaches it (without sin)
See posts #6 & #69. Probably more but I got bored scrolling through all the posts.

Also see the thread "Biblical Mary" and probably any thread with Mary in the title.

Yeah, I can't be bothered scrolling through the posts, as you say it's boring. But I have to say in all the forums I've ever been part of this discussion has always come up - it's a bit of a golden oldie - and not once have a seen a scripture which says that Mary's mother didn't conceive her daughter without having sex with her husband.

 

[Pearl]

Mary the mother of Jesus was a godly and blessed woman, but she was not without sin. Jesus was the only human without sin. Jesus “had no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). “In him is no sin” (1 John 3:5). Nothing of the sort is ever said of Mary or anyone else. Jesus Christ is fully human, but He is also fully God (John 1:1). He is the Lamb of God, “without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19), a title and description no other person can claim.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

To help bolster their teaching that Mary was sinless, the Roman Catholic Church has invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (formally accepted as Catholic dogma in 1854). According to this false teaching, Mary was, from her very conception in her mother’s womb, “preserved free from all stain of original sin.” That is, Mary had no sinful nature. This doctrine is neither biblical nor necessary. The virgin-born Christ Jesus was free from the stain of original sin, but it was not necessary for His mother to be—or His grandmother—or His great-grandmother, etc. How far back would we have to go to insure Jesus’ perfection, if it were necessary for Mary to be sinless?

Rather than teach that Mary was sinless, the Bible gives evidence that she was a normal person with a normal person’s need of salvation. In Mary’s praise-filled, humble prayer in Luke 1, she says, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (verse 47). If she were sinless, she would not have needed a “Savior.” Mary receives a gentle rebuke from Jesus in John 2:4, which hardly seems fitting if she were sinless.

Catholicism also teaches that the reference to Mary being “highly favored” (Luke 1:28) and one who was “blessed . . . among women” (Luke 1:42) supports the view of a sinless Mary. However, neither verse makes such a claim. It is possible to be blessed and know God’s favor without being sinless. Catholic teaching also describes Mary as “full of grace,” but that phrase is found only twice in the Bible, and neither time is it in reference to Mary. Jesus is said to be “full of grace” (John 1:14), and so is Stephen (Acts 6:8).

The veneration of Mary in Catholicism and some other liturgical religious systems has led to the unbiblical claim that Mary was without sin. Other unbiblical doctrines have also cropped up around the view of a sinless Mary: the teaching that she was a perpetual virgin, that she hears and answers our prayers, that she shares in our redemption, and that she is a mediator of grace, to name a few. Those who revere a sinless Mary are being “led astray from . . . sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3).

 

[Mungo]

Why mary had to be sinless considering she gave birth to a child who suffered from the result of sin (the fall)

Jesus was not born as Adam was. He died. Adam would never have died if he never sinned.

Jesus suffered to save us from sin.
He suffered because of the sins of others not because he sinned.

 

[Mungo]

If mary never sinned, She never brok any commandments

If she never broke a commandment. She never came under the curse of the law

If she never came under the curse of the law. She did not need animal sacrifice to atone for her sin

She saved herself. She earned her right to heaven.

Paul tells us he who knew no sin became sin for us. so that we may be made right with God

He also tells us, by the law no one could be justified because cursed is the one who does not obey every word (according to you Mary never sinned so she would never be under a curse)

No she didn't save herself.
As I keep pointing out she needed a saviour to save he from the effects of original sin - see post #646

 

[Mungo]

Yeah, I can't be bothered scrolling through the posts, as you say it's boring. But I have to say in all the forums I've ever been part of this discussion has always come up - it's a bit of a golden oldie - and not once have a seen a scripture which says that Mary's mother didn't conceive her daughter without having sex with her husband.

I don't know anybody who claims that Mary was conceived without her mother having sex with her husband.
Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Mungo]

Mary the mother of Jesus was a godly and blessed woman, but she was not without sin. Jesus was the only human without sin. Jesus “had no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21). “In him is no sin” (1 John 3:5). Nothing of the sort is ever said of Mary or anyone else. Jesus Christ is fully human, but He is also fully God (John 1:1). He is the Lamb of God, “without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:19), a title and description no other person can claim.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

To help bolster their teaching that Mary was sinless, the Roman Catholic Church has invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (formally accepted as Catholic dogma in 1854). According to this false teaching, Mary was, from her very conception in her mother’s womb, “preserved free from all stain of original sin.” That is, Mary had no sinful nature. This doctrine is neither biblical nor necessary. The virgin-born Christ Jesus was free from the stain of original sin, but it was not necessary for His mother to be—or His grandmother—or His great-grandmother, etc. How far back would we have to go to insure Jesus’ perfection, if it were necessary for Mary to be sinless?

Rather than teach that Mary was sinless, the Bible gives evidence that she was a normal person with a normal person’s need of salvation. In Mary’s praise-filled, humble prayer in Luke 1, she says, “My spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (verse 47). If she were sinless, she would not have needed a “Savior.” Mary receives a gentle rebuke from Jesus in John 2:4, which hardly seems fitting if she were sinless.

Catholicism also teaches that the reference to Mary being “highly favored” (Luke 1:28) and one who was “blessed . . . among women” (Luke 1:42) supports the view of a sinless Mary. However, neither verse makes such a claim. It is possible to be blessed and know God’s favor without being sinless. Catholic teaching also describes Mary as “full of grace,” but that phrase is found only twice in the Bible, and neither time is it in reference to Mary. Jesus is said to be “full of grace” (John 1:14), and so is Stephen (Acts 6:8).

The veneration of Mary in Catholicism and some other liturgical religious systems has led to the unbiblical claim that Mary was without sin. Other unbiblical doctrines have also cropped up around the view of a sinless Mary: the teaching that she was a perpetual virgin, that she hears and answers our prayers, that she shares in our redemption, and that she is a mediator of grace, to name a few. Those who revere a sinless Mary are being “led astray from . . . sincere and pure devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3).

Any more to add to your shopping list of supposed Catholic errors - all of which have been debunked many times?

As you can't be bothered to look at the posts I referred to, although I took the trouble to find them, I shall ignore your shopping list.

 

[Pearl]

I don't know anybody who claims that Mary was conceived without her mother having sex with her husband.
Where did you get that idea from?

Is that not what immaculate conception means?

 

[Philip James]

Is that not what immaculate conception means?

Hi Pearl,

No.

Immaculate conception means conceived without the stain of original sin.

Pax!

 

[Pearl]

Hi Pearl,

No.

Immaculate conception means conceived without the stain of original sin.

Pax!

So how does that work? Does it mean both Mary's mother and father had no sin?

 

[Philip James]

So how does that work? Does it mean both Mary's mother and father had no sin?

No, it means God, applying the merits of Christ, created Mary at conception with the fullness of sanctifying Grace.

Peace be with you!

 

[farouk]

So how does that work? Does it mean both Mary's mother and father had no sin?

Hi @Pearl In Scripture it's clear that Mary herself needed a Saviour; "My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (From the Magnificat in Luke's Gospel).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hi @Pearl In Scripture it's clear that Mary herself needed a Saviour; "My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (From the Magnificat in Luke's Gospel).

She absolutely did - and He saved her at conception.
It had NOTGING to do with her parents and EVERYTHING to do with her Savior.

If Scripture teaches us anything - it's that NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types. This goes without exception -and the Ark of the Covenant (OT) and Mary (NT) are NO different:

OT - The Tabernacle that housed the Ark was overshadowed by the cloud of glory of the Lord (Shekinah glory) filled the Tabernacle (2 Chron. 5:13-14).
NT - Mary was overshadowed by the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35).

OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) who carried the Word of God.

OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the Word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house in the hill country of Judea for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

OT - On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

Augustine, speaking with the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers, wrote that the “New Testament
lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New”. This statement means that
unless one understands the Old Testament, one cannot understand the New Testament.


In the Book of Revelation, we see the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19: Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

The very next verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1): A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman 2 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Verse 2 says: She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.

We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read: She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.

 

[Taken]

Mary, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

Mary...the

Ark of the NEW Covenant

Scripture does not say what you claim.

Act 1:
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

There is simply NO getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.

Scripture does not say what you claim.

 

[theefaith]

We cannot fully express the sublime dignity of Mary the mother of God!

She reigns as queen of the kingdom of God!

Queen of all angels and saints!

is our holy and immaculate mother!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Scripture does not say what you claim.
Act 1:
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Revelation 12 is Mary.
Scripture does not say what you claim.

It absolutely does.

Scripture teaches us in TWO different ways:
Explicitly and implicitly - and BOTH are equally binding on the believer.

I made a Scriptural case for Mary being the fulfillment of the Ark.
Prove me wrong using a Scriptural case.

 

[Taken]

It absolutely does.

Scripture teaches us in TWO different ways:
Explicitly and implicitly - and BOTH are equally binding on the believer.

I made a Scriptural case for Mary being the fulfillment of the Ark.
Prove me wrong using a Scriptural case.

THIS is how your teaching APPEARS...

* your teaching "MAKES" Mary an ARK, from her own natural birth,
* through Jesus being within her womb,
* and continued claiming MARY IS an ARK.

IS that what you are trying to convey?

 

[theefaith]

Old Testament type or example provided by God for our instruction!

Queen Esther

Queen Esther fair: est 2:7
Mary all fair: gen 3:15 Song of Solomon 4:12 Lk 1:28 rev 12:1

And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; est 2:17
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
Lk 1:28 also Lk 1:30 1:42 1:45 1:48
Mary obtained grace and favor: Lk 1:28
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Esther merits the graces of the king for the people. Est
Mary merits the graces we need but don’t deserve. Lk 1:30
Mother is the mother of our savior and our salvation! Lk 2:30 matt 1:21

They prayed to Esther to intercede for them before the king. As Mary intercedes for Christians before God.

Queen Esther found favor with the king: est 2:17
Mary found favor with God: Lk 1:30

Queen Esther saves her people interceding with the king: est 8:17
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

Queen Esther receives half the kingdom!
Mary receives half the kingdom, Christ retains the kingdom of justice as just judge and Mary is the queen of grace & mercy! Hence the throne of grace is Mary’s throne! Heb 4:16
Depicted in genesis as the greater light that rules the day (those living in God’s will) and the lesser light that governs the night (those living in sin) Mary the mother of mercy and refuge of sinners!
Notice the sun is the source of all good and moon only reflects this goodness!
She directs all to Her divine son! Jn 2:5

 

[BreadOfLife]

THIS is how your teaching APPEARS...

* your teaching "MAKES" Mary an ARK, from her own natural birth,
* through Jesus being within her womb,
* and continued claiming MARY IS an ARK.

IS that what you are trying to convey?

No - this is what Scripture flatly states, using OT Type and NT fulfillment.
It pretty much states it explicitly in Rev. 11:19-12:1-5.

As I told you before - I presented a solid Scriptural case for Mary being the fulfillment of the Ark.
ANYBODY can spout off denials - but proving your case is quite a different kettle of fish. If ALL you have are denials without a Scriptural rebuttal - then you have NO valid argument.

The Bible doesn't deal in "coincidences" or chance.
EVERY jot and tittle of God's Word has meaning - and His plan is perfect.