In your opinion.
Catholics give many verses. It is you who just give your opinions.
Show me where the Catholic Church teaches those things.
Biblical Mary
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Show me where the Catholic Church teaches those things.
I meant are we ok me and you personally... I have worked very hard to maintain GOOD communication with you Mungo... I don't know why thatI'm good.
How are you?
is so important to me... it just is.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And back then if you were not a Roman Catholic you were condemend. C'mon Mungo learn church history.
It wasn't until Vatican 2 that the Catholic Church Officially says protestants were no longer anathema.
Do I really need to look and post every doctrine that syas if a person was spearated from teh catholic church they were lost?
If a person was denid the eucharist they were lost?
In the Roman Catholic Church an anathema is not merely a symbolic protest. Here is the definition of “anathema” from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha. (Emphasis mine.)
As the reader can see, all Protestants who do not agree with everything the Roman Catholic Church teaches in the sessions with anathemas are in mortal danger of hellfire.
Learn you rchurch history will you?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Sadly you will find out how Wrong that statment is.
God does not need romanism to tell the world what He meant when He said what He said. Rome began the abomination known as allegorical interpretation of Scripture. IOW Yes the word says this, but it really means this! They do take many things literally, but when they go allegorical, they leave God behind for their own opinion. Like thee faith, the faithful parrot of Romanism he is, does.
<<<First, let me share with you how I define doctrine in our conversation: Doctrine is a truth taught by The Church.>>>
Would that be the same definition by RCC of doctrine?
If so, are you trying to say then that what is contained in the letter is truth taught by the church in Jerusalem, as such what the letter contains is all doctrine?
Tong
R4585
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This reminds me of couples that are living together and not married being denied communion - before the 2016 fiasco caused by this present Pope.
Some would tell me that they cannot receive communion but that the priest told them they were not in sin.
IF a person in the CC is not offered communion, it means he is considered to be in mortal sin and thus is separated from God.
The same holds true for Anathama.
No communion - no salvation.
You're also right about Vatican II.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I already did.
But to repeat what was written, they are not official doctrine of Romanism, but widely accepted and implicitly affirmed by the Church.
- Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is a reflection of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.
- All three aspects of this one role are substantially different from, and wholly subordinate to, Christ's triune role as Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate.
- Mary's role is different from, and subordinate to, Christ's role because, in God's plan for Creation, the role given to women is different from, and subordinate to, the role ...
Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix
catholicplanet.com/CMA/
The Blessed Virgin Mary: Co-redemptrix - The Fatima Center
Mary Co-Redemptrix - Catholicism.org
How Can Catholics Understand Mary as Co-Redemprix, Mediatrix of All Graces and Advocate? - Featured Today - Catholic Online
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted) 7
If you wish I can even give you a reference from the Catholic Action bible I passewd on to my son (it is a family heirloom for4 generations) that call Mary, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.
Learn you rreligion will you?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I have only needed a few verses.
with one bible verse the myth of perpetual virginity is shredded by God!
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
I cannot produce verses that show Mary is not assumed into heaven, not a perpetual virgin, di dnot have other kids ( I did produce th everse showing she had other children)
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
So show me I added my opinion when the bible teaches Joseph refrained form having sex until Jesus was born and that Jesus had at least four half brothers and two half sisters?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The proble3m is that over the centuries the church has altered its teachings on many issues! Things that were mortal sins are no longer mortal sins. Whiochanged their mind? god or the men? And if the church no longer calls something a mortal sin, according to their doctrine does that mean if people died in just that mortal sin are they removed from hell and granted their tour of purgatory or go to heaven???
Of course with god there is no "mortal or venial sin" concerning salvation. If one is saved all their sin is forgiven. even future ones!
the entire structure of Romanism is based on savation by faith and doing good works and adhering to ecclestical decrees.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
BTW to correct one of your misquotes of Scripture you parrotted by Romanist sources:
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee
It is not Mary who crushes the head of the seprent, but her seed Jesus! And seed before you go crazy means descendants. And jesus is the descandant of Eve.!
One day I hope you will elarn that though Mary is blessed among woman, she is not what the Romansits teach. that was brough tinto teh cvhurch when gentiles became th epredominant race in teh church and brough tin many of their false ideologies with them.
Among them is the reverence for the Queen of Heaven, and that teh mother of the savior is to be venerated above all mortals! this wireship began with semiramis ansd nimrod and kept going under vartious guises and names.
Calling Mary a co-redemptrix has been discussed for years.I already did.
But to repeat what was written, they are not official doctrine of Romanism, but widely accepted and implicitly affirmed by the Church.
More items...
- Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is a reflection of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.
- All three aspects of this one role are substantially different from, and wholly subordinate to, Christ's triune role as Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate.
- Mary's role is different from, and subordinate to, Christ's role because, in God's plan for Creation, the role given to women is different from, and subordinate to, the role ...
Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix
catholicplanet.com/CMA/
The Blessed Virgin Mary: Co-redemptrix - The Fatima Center
Mary Co-Redemptrix - Catholicism.org
How Can Catholics Understand Mary as Co-Redemprix, Mediatrix of All Graces and Advocate? - Featured Today - Catholic Online
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
1. Mary is the Mother of God.
2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
In ancient times:
St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1
1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1
1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1
1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted) 7
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4
1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1
If you wish I can even give you a reference from the Catholic Action bible I passewd on to my son (it is a family heirloom for4 generations) that call Mary, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.
Learn you rreligion will you?
You post a lot of information, but I'm sure you must understand that the teaching of the CC comes only from the
CCC....the Catechism of the Catholic Church which was published at the request of John Paul II and was printed in 1992.
I don't know of anywhere in the CCC where it is stated that Mary is a co-redemptrix.
Have you found any such information?
Agreed that the CC has changed since the Council of Trent about 500 years ago.
They will say it's progressive revelation
However, I do believe they are trying to make their way back to the beginning.
At that time, the CC was the only church and was in keeping with biblical truths - this can be confirmed by the beliefs of the early church fathers.
It's unfortunate that it changed so much over the years.
I will state that I am not a hater of the CC as I find that many of my Protestant brothers are.
Different denominations believe different doctrine and we don't castigate them for it.
A saved person is saved and it does not matter what denomination they are.
You get over excited. You need to calm down and not fret about something that was rarely enacted and does not exist now.
According to Jimmy Akin (Catholic apologist)
Over time, a distinction came to be made between excommunication and anathema. The precise nature of the distinction varied but eventually became fixed. By the time of Gregory IX (1370–1378), the term anathema was used to describe a major excommunication that was performed with a solemn pontifical ceremony. This customarily involved the ringing of a bell, the closing of a book, and the snuffing out of candles, collectively signifying that the highest ecclesiastical court had spoken and would not reconsider the matter until the individual gave evidence of repentance.
Such solemnities have been rare in Church history. They remained on the books, however, as late as the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which provided that, "Excommunication . . . is called anathema especially when it is imposed with the solemnities that are described in the Roman Pontifical" (CIC [1917] 2257 §§ 1–2).
Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means that today the penalty of anathema does not exist in Church law. The new Code provided that, "When this Code goes into effect, the following are abrogated: 1º the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917 . . . 3º any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code" (CIC [1983] 6 §1). The penalty of anathema was not renewed in the new Code, and thus it was abrogated when the Code went into effect on January 1, 1983.
And he continues to list some errors in peoples understanding.
1. An anathema sentenced a person to hell. This is not the case. Sentencing someone to hell is a power that is God’s alone, and the Church cannot exercise it.
Marymog
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Well, the dictionary defines doctrine as "a principle of law established through past decisions". Which means any decision made in the past by church leaders, like at the Council of Jerusalem, is binding upon all Christians as "law". So YES it would be the same definition as The Churches definition which is the common definition of all of mankind....You are wearing me out Tong.
I don't know how to be more clear: Scripture is the Truth so YES, "what the letter contains IS all doctrine". If there is an explicit command in the bible by Jesus or the Apostles then it IS doctrine. I don't understand your line of questioning.
I already did.
But to repeat what was written, they are not official doctrine of Romanism, but widely accepted and implicitly affirmed by the Church.
More items...
- Mary's triune role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is a reflection of the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity.
- All three aspects of this one role are substantially different from, and wholly subordinate to, Christ's triune role as Redeemer, Mediator, Advocate.
- Mary's role is different from, and subordinate to, Christ's role because, in God's plan for Creation, the role given to women is different from, and subordinate to, the role ...
Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix
catholicplanet.com/CMA/
The Blessed Virgin Mary: Co-redemptrix - The Fatima Center
Mary Co-Redemptrix - Catholicism.org
How Can Catholics Understand Mary as Co-Redemprix, Mediatrix of All Graces and Advocate? - Featured Today - Catholic Online
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
1. Mary is the Mother of God.
2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
In ancient times:
St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1
1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1
1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1
1964-NOV-21: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II, and "Solemnly promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI" states, in part:
"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3
"...the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator."
"For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source." (Footnotes deleted) 7
1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4
1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1
1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1
If you wish I can even give you a reference from the Catholic Action bible I passewd on to my son (it is a family heirloom for4 generations) that call Mary, co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix.
Learn you rreligion will you?
I asked you to show me where the Catholic Church teaches what you claimed.
None of the above does that.
Moreover I answered the junk you post about co-redemptrix in post #1559.
None of the above says that Mary is co-redeemer
None of the above says Mary is the fount of all grace.
That neither says nor implies that Mary and Joseph had sex at any time.
Your quotes do not say those were the children of Mary.
Show me one verse that plainly says that Mary and Joseph had sex
Show me one verse that plainly says that Mary had children other than Jesus.
Bruce Atkinson
Active Member
I'm going to jump in on a couple of things. The first is Mary's being full of grace.
For starters, it would seem the Catholic Church 'invented' that Mary was 'full of grace'. In particular, except for the DRB, eg, Douay-Rheims (I think the Catholic Church stopped using that translation not long after Vatican II - I'm probably wrong as I'm was never a Catholic) Luke 1:28 has no mention of 'grace' whatsoever! I checked multiple bible translations that I have downloaded on e-Sword - KJV, ESV, NLT, NASB, NIV, ISV, NRSV-CE and DRB. Compare the differences - (by the way, e-Sword is free for downloading, most Bible translations are free)
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV)
28 And he came to her and said, "Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" (ESV)
28 Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!” (NLT)
28 And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." (NASB)
28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." (NIV)
28 The angel came to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!" (ISV)
28 And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.' (NRSV-CE - Catholic Edition)
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (DRB)
The Douay-Rheims uses 'grace' a 2nd time in verse 30.
30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. (DRB)
In doing a quick search of the 4 Gospel and Acts in e-Sword, most versions do not use 'grace' except in connection with Jesus and God. In particular, many versions 1st use of 'grace' in the Gospels is Luke 2:40 describing Jesus' childhood -
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (KJV)
Other versions 1st use of 'grace' in the Gospels is in John 1:14 -
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)
It is JESUS that is full of grace! Draw your own conclusions about Mary's being filled with grace.
My second concern is tying ('manufactured') grace in Luke 1:28 to grace in Hebrews 4:16. The issue is taking a verse out of context. Read the preceding verses of Hebrews to get the context of verse 16 -
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (KJV)
It's clear that the grace in verse 16 speaks of Jesus IS the throne of grace...no reference whatsoever to Mary.
Remember, too, that Hebrews was written after Jesus ascended into Heaven to show Israel that Jesus WAS the Messiah they've been looking for and that FAITH in Him is the way to salvation. In the Gospels, Jesus was all about showing Israel directly that HE was the promised Messiah as he fulfilled all the prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament. The leaders simply couldn't believe that the lowly carpenters' son WAS the promised Messiah!
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