Paul

[Bob Estey]

How would you know whether God and Jesus are quoted? You say, "other writers", other than God, that is, the only part I can think of that God wrote were the stone tablets of the 10 commandments. Are you saying the only part you accept of Scripture are the 10 commandments? And even so, aren't you relying on imperfect witnesses? So then how could you say with any reliablity or certainty at all that God and Jesus are in fact quoted, and if so, where?

If you remove divine inspiration as the source of Scripture, you remove any thought of reliablity from all of Scripture. It was all penned by human writers.

Much love!

There are some things I take on faith. One thing I take on faith is that the Bible doesn't lie. I don't have to agree with everything Paul says, but I know those are Paul's words.

 

[Bob Estey]

The Writers that God CHOSE to record His Holy Words were mainly Saved murderers—- Saved because of their Faith in the Promises Of God ( Moses, David and Paul) They we’re FAR from perfect.....it is the WORD that is Perfect.....not the men that put pen to paper .....a wise man would derive hope from these facts....

I think the men who led the church decided what went into the Bible, and what stayed out. It was pretty much established back in the 4th century, I believe.

 

[Bob Estey]

I “Worship” God Alone.....I “Appreciate” His Sacred Word ( The Bible) for the Gift that it is—- It reveals “ WHY” He and He ALONE merit my aforementioned Worship..... It allows us to KNOW God , and if and when that vital thing occurs, the Worship takes care of itself....

I think when you believe something is perfect, then then you worship it. If you think the Bible is perfect, then you worship it. I think only God is perfect, so we need to get to know him through prayer.

 

[marks]

There are some things I take on faith. One thing I take on faith is that the Bible doesn't lie. I don't have to agree with everything Paul says, but I know those are Paul's words.

I think I'm understanding you.

Your thinking is that the Bible writers wrote everything accurately that God said, and that Jesus said, but the things they themselves said aren't the same, not being God's Words. We can trust God's Words as flawless, but not man's words. Except where the man quotes God.

I curious, how did the human writers know what God said outside of their presence?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I think when you believe something is perfect, then then you worship it. If you think the Bible is perfect, then you worship it.

I think that's not so. In fact, I find that to be very different from reality, at least as I know it.

Our perfect God wrote us a letter. What is so difficult in that? Except it may call you to believe things you don't agree with, which is sounding like the case here.

Whatever those things are, you still haven't posted for me a passage you think is wrong, that I recall.

But this notion that if I believe something is perfect I'm just going to automatically worship it, no, I don't find that at all, and I don't see any good reason to assume it true.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

I think I'm understanding you.

Your thinking is that the Bible writers wrote everything accurately that God said, and that Jesus said, but the things they themselves said aren't the same, not being God's Words. We can trust God's Words as flawless, but not man's words. Except where the man quotes God.

I curious, how did the human writers know what God said outside of their presence?

Much love!

Hi Marks!
"I curious, how did the human writers know what God said outside of their presence?"

Angelic messengers? Like He did with the OT prophets?

 

[Truman]

"Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me." - Psalm 51:11
You mean like this?

 

[Bob Estey]

I think I'm understanding you.

Your thinking is that the Bible writers wrote everything accurately that God said, and that Jesus said, but the things they themselves said aren't the same, not being God's Words. We can trust God's Words as flawless, but not man's words. Except where the man quotes God.

I curious, how did the human writers know what God said outside of their presence?

Much love!

As far as I know, human writers didn't know what God said outside of their presence. We are supposed to pray constantly, so we get to know God, but it seems to me understanding him is a skill that we need to develop. Who among us has a perfect understanding of what God is saying to us?

 

[Bob Estey]

I think that's not so. In fact, I find that to be very different from reality, at least as I know it.

Our perfect God wrote us a letter. What is so difficult in that? Except it may call you to believe things you don't agree with, which is sounding like the case here.

Whatever those things are, you still haven't posted for me a passage you think is wrong, that I recall.

But this notion that if I believe something is perfect I'm just going to automatically worship it, no, I don't find that at all, and I don't see any good reason to assume it true.

Much love!

You might not realize it, but if you think something is perfect, I think you worship it. Only God is perfect. It is to him we turn, not the Bible. The Bible is a helpful tool, but not a crutch.

 

[marks]

As far as I know, human writers didn't know what God said outside of their presence. We are supposed to pray constantly, so we get to know God, but it seems to me understanding him is a skill that we need to develop. Who among us has a perfect understanding of what God is saying to us?

So then for instance, the account of Creation is not necessarily accurate, as being relayed by a man from what he knew, or thought?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You might not realize it, but if you think something is perfect, I think you worship it.

I understand you think that, but what I think is that you are way off base. You might not realize it, but I may be very different from what you imagine. We've never met, you know virtually nothing about me, but you know the way my mind works? I think not.

Allow me to try another time to expain myself. Our absolutely perfect God and Father has written to us a letter, perfect, being from Him. He used human writers, but the letter is from Him.

I've received letters from my wife. There were entirely from her. But I don't love the letter, only because it is from her. And I love the Bible, because it is from Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but not a crutch.

Where does that come from?

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

There's much discussion in this thread centered around the word: perfect. As stated several times in the past few days (I've been offline), the only thing perfect is God. However, Paul uses it more often to mean 'complete' or 'mature' than referencing Gods' being perfect. Look at the verses below in several translations I have on my computer: (Note: I intentionally chose different translations for each verse to show the differences of wording)

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (KJV)
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (ESV)
Do not be conformed to this world, but continually be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may be able to determine what God's will is--what is proper, pleasing, and perfect (ISV)
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (NIV)

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (KJV)
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (ESV)
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. (NIV)
but he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for power is made perfect in weakness.' So, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. (NRSV-CE)

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. (KJV)
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God. (ESV)
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of the Messiah Jesus, sends you his greetings. He is always wrestling in his prayers for you, so that you may stand mature, completely convinced of the entire will of God. (ISV)
Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured. (NIV)

As the above verses show, Pauls' use of 'perfect' meaning 'flawless' only when referencing God. The rest of the time, he's using it to mean 'complete', etc.

For what it's worth, I just did a search for 'perfect' in the entire KJV Bible. The OT uses it sometimes in reference to God, but the rest of the time to mean 'complete', etc.

 

[Bob Estey]

So then for instance, the account of Creation is not necessarily accurate, as being relayed by a man from what he knew, or thought?

Much love!

Interesting question. Off the top of my head, I think it likely the story of creation was passed down by word of mouth from generation to generation, until the day arrived people started writing things down. One might wonder where the story began. One might wonder if the story was altered along the way.

Another possibility is that someone who had gotten to know God very well was told the story by God himself.

Both of these explanations could be true.

 

[Bob Estey]

I understand you think that, but what I think is that you are way off base. You might not realize it, but I may be very different from what you imagine. We've never met, you know virtually nothing about me, but you know the way my mind works? I think not.

Allow me to try another time to expain myself. Our absolutely perfect God and Father has written to us a letter, perfect, being from Him. He used human writers, but the letter is from Him.

I've received letters from my wife. There were entirely from her. But I don't love the letter, only because it is from her. And I love the Bible, because it is from Him.

Much love!

Lots of people believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. Does THAT make the entire Bible the Word of God.

Paul says all scripture "is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Paul says women shouldn't speak or ask questions in the churchs (1 Corinthians 14:34-36). Doesn't that seem a little weird?

Paul says according to the law (same scripture as above), women shouldn't speak or ask questions in the churches. What law was he referring to?

Paul says to obey our government leaders because they were put in place by God. Did God make Hitler dictator of Germany (or did he just allow it to happen?

God said the great, and first commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. He said there is a second like it, to love your neighbor as yourself. Paul said everything comes from one commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus said not to call yourself a teacher. Paul calls people teachers.

Paul was a great man, so they hung onto his letters and had people read them. Somehow, people got the idea they were perfect.

 

[Bob Estey]

Where does that come from?

My dad once told me you can find anything you want in the Bible. I believe there is a lot of truth in that. You can defend almost anything you do by picking out a scripture that seems to support what you did.

 

[Nancy]

There are several things I would like to DIS-BELIEVE that Paul wrote, but it would only be trying to justify sin. I cannot for the life of me ignore Paul's words, if I did that, then I'd be questioning ALL scripture...can't do that as, I would be so confused and unsure of what is truth and what is not. I think all of us at one time or another wanted to cherry pick who is of God and who is NOT of God in the scriptures. I think it is all or nothing with The Lord and His Word. How can you not trust in scripture? It then becomes our own vain imaginations...I could NEVER go there bro, sry.
If we cannot trust in scripture, how else to base our belief and get to know Christ and the characteristics of God?
Are there certain things in Paul's writings that you find do not line up with other scripture?

 

[marks]

My dad once told me you can find anything you want in the Bible. I believe there is a lot of truth in that. You can defend almost anything you do by picking out a scripture that seems to support what you did.

I see.

Yeah, there are people that make is say and not say whatever they want.

Both say, and not say.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Lots of people believe the entire Bible is the Word of God. Does THAT make the entire Bible the Word of God.

No, the answer to that is if God gave it as His Word. Lots of people don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. Does their disbelief change what the Bible is? No, of course not.

Paul says all scripture "is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." Isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy?

No, it's a didactic passage, a simple daclarative statement.

Paul says women shouldn't speak or ask questions in the churchs (1 Corinthians 14:34-36). Doesn't that seem a little weird?

Apparently it does to you. And equally apparently it didn't to Paul, or if it did, he didn't let it bother him. Should you're sense of appropriateness be the judge of Scripture?

I'm not going to try to change your opinions on these. But I don't see how you are offering more than, "It just doesn't sound like God's Word to me".

Much love!

 

[marks]

Interesting question. Off the top of my head, I think it likely the story of creation was passed down by word of mouth from generation to generation, until the day arrived people started writing things down. One might wonder where the story began. One might wonder if the story was altered along the way.

Another possibility is that someone who had gotten to know God very well was told the story by God himself.

Both of these explanations could be true.

Or maybe none of them are true, and it's made up out of the writer's imagination. Imperfect man writing imperfect tales of things he knows nothing about.

Much love!