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marks

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My dad once told me you can find anything you want in the Bible. I believe there is a lot of truth in that. You can defend almost anything you do by picking out a scripture that seems to support what you did.
Oh, and at the end of the day, this isn't actually defensible, as, it will always turn out to be a misuse and twisting of Scripture. It may seem to support what you say at a glance, but with any looking, it says what says. The thing is, people don't like what it says.

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BloodBought 1953

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Paul was a great man, so they hung onto his letters and had people read them. Somehow, people got the idea they were perfect.



Peter said that anything that Paul wrote was equal to anything found in Scripture......You think Holy Scriptures are Flawed?
 

Tong2020

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Paul was a great man, so they hung onto his letters and had people read them. Somehow, people got the idea they were perfect.



Peter said that anything that Paul wrote was equal to anything found in Scripture......You think Holy Scriptures are Flawed?
There is no doubt that the writings of Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit and were put in writing by Paul, either with his own hand or with the help of a scribe.

The writer of scriptures of the book of Acts, also without doubt, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. And much had been written about Paul, his person, his election, his conversion, his previous work, his works after conversion, his calling and ministry, his encounter and experiences with the Lord Jesus Christ, how he was taught of many things concerning the gospel, Jesus Christ, truth, and was given revelation concerning the things of the Spirit of God, not by men, but by the Lord Himself. And what he received from the Lord is what he preached, taught, and written about.

Tong
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marks

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Paul wasn’t perfect, though. He commanded much respect, so his letters were kept, and in time considered scripture.

I came across this in our morning reading,

2 Peter 3:15 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Peter attests that Paul wrote "according to the wisdom given unto him". So that would mean that Paul was not just writing whatever he thought was nice, or useful, or whatever. Rather, that Paul was writing "according to the wisdom" given to him by Jesus.

But I suppose you can respond, Well, Peter wasn't perfect either . . . and on it will go.

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Bob Estey

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Or maybe none of them are true, and it's made up out of the writer's imagination. Imperfect man writing imperfect tales of things he knows nothing about.

Much love!
I don't think it's the writer's imagination. The Bible doesn't lie.
 

Bob Estey

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Oh, and at the end of the day, this isn't actually defensible, as, it will always turn out to be a misuse and twisting of Scripture. It may seem to support what you say at a glance, but with any looking, it says what says. The thing is, people don't like what it says.

Much love!
It can be someone taking something out of context. It can be misunderstanding a complicated phrase.
 

Bob Estey

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I came across this in our morning reading,

2 Peter 3:15 KJV
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Peter attests that Paul wrote "according to the wisdom given unto him". So that would mean that Paul was not just writing whatever he thought was nice, or useful, or whatever. Rather, that Paul was writing "according to the wisdom" given to him by Jesus.

But I suppose you can respond, Well, Peter wasn't perfect either . . . and on it will go.

Much love!
Neither Paul nor Peter were perfect.
 

marks

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It can be someone taking something out of context. It can be misunderstanding a complicated phrase.
But still, the point is, it's "misuse". There is a thing the Bible says, and the fact that you can make it "appear" to some to say something different doesn't mean it's not correct in what it actually does say.

Much love!
 

Bruce Atkinson

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There are several things I would like to DIS-BELIEVE that Paul wrote, but it would only be trying to justify sin. I cannot for the life of me ignore Paul's words, if I did that, then I'd be questioning ALL scripture...can't do that as, I would be so confused and unsure of what is truth and what is not. I think all of us at one time or another wanted to cherry pick who is of God and who is NOT of God in the scriptures. I think it is all or nothing with The Lord and His Word. How can you not trust in scripture? It then becomes our own vain imaginations...I could NEVER go there bro, sry.
If we cannot trust in scripture, how else to base our belief and get to know Christ and the characteristics of God?
Are there certain things in Paul's writings that you find do not line up with other scripture?

If one were to pick and choose what portions of the Bible to believe or not believe, everyone would end up choosing different parts and in no time at all, if everyone 'put their heads together', they'd throw the Bible in the trash. Perhaps the pick and choose 'theology' is due to ones' upbringing, teaching, and even the church and preachers included. Then one has to discern whether the preacher/Sunday school teacher is rightly dividing Gods' Word or are they misinterpreting something. One can only discern the difference through knowing scripture. And one thing I've learned through the years reading and being taught Gods' Word by very Bible-knowledgeable preachers and teachers at church, the more I know of His Word, the easier it is to 'connect the dots' of what is being taught to the rest of His Word.

I hesitate in bringing up the term: dispensation, as I know there's more than a few anti-dispensationalists on this forum. There are dispensationalists that will argue how many dispensations are in the Bible. It's easy to think of dispensations like raising a child. As a toddler, we know they are learning much and we're certainly not teaching them calculus before they can even count to 10. As teens, we reinforce what they've been taught in their early years, and add to that how to drive a car, the basics of dating, and in school, they get some higher level math, science, etc taught to them. I'd call it a dispensation of cash to put them through college. In short, as parents, we both teach and treat our children differently as they grow up and eventually go out on their own...although we're still concerned about their welfare and may help them if needed.

Knowing what dispensation God is using dealing with individuals in the Bible is important, particularly the Old Testament. Dispensations are serial, where one ends, the next one begins. But there is sometimes a brief overlap between them when necessary. Adam and Eve were in one dispensation (innocence). There were several intervening dispensations until the dispensation of law through Moses. Once Paul started his apostleship to the Gentiles beginning with his 3 years in Arabia being taught by Jesus, the dispensation of grace officially began. Prior to Jesus and Paul in Arabia, the age of grace (aka dispensation) was completely hidden from everyone. Even from Jesus' disciples. He even told them He was going to Jerusalem to fulfill all prophecy about His first coming and they understood none of it. Gods' going to the Gentiles through Paul was kept hidden as well.

Luke 18:31-34 (KJV)
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

The dispensation of grace actually overlapped the dispensation of law. Paul started his ministry to the Gentiles roughly 40 AD, but the temple continued (dispensation of law) continued until its destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. At that point, praying at the temple, the temple priests, animal sacrifices, etc ended...ie, the dispensation of law ended. Until Paul came along, salvation by grace through faith alone was completely unknown. Were the Jews that believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah saved because of grace? Nope. During Jesus' ministry, Jews only needed to believe that He WAS the promised Messiah. Period. Just like Peter told Jesus -

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (KJV)

Nothing about Jesus death for our sins, burial and resurrection. Just faith that He was the Messiah.

Only Paul taught salvation through grace by faith alone. Of course, our fully believing that Jesus IS the Son of God that paid for all our sins at the cross is first and foremost. His death was the perfect sacrifice for sins, exactly as animal sacrifices for sins were made under the law.

Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul all about grace. Not law. And wrote of our not being under the law, but of grace.

Romans 6:14-18 (KJV)
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Just to clarify the dispensation grace, it was kept hidden (eg, a mystery) until revealed to Paul -

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (KJV)

Galatians 1:11-12 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is Paul alone that was taught and teaches the dispensation of grace -

Ephesians 3:1 (KJV)
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 1:24-27 (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Hopefully, all the preceding helps clarify Paul's writings. He makes it clear that being under the law (Exodus-John) is NOT the same as being under grace (Romans-Philemon).
 

Nancy

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If one were to pick and choose what portions of the Bible to believe or not believe, everyone would end up choosing different parts and in no time at all, if everyone 'put their heads together', they'd throw the Bible in the trash. Perhaps the pick and choose 'theology' is due to ones' upbringing, teaching, and even the church and preachers included. Then one has to discern whether the preacher/Sunday school teacher is rightly dividing Gods' Word or are they misinterpreting something. One can only discern the difference through knowing scripture. And one thing I've learned through the years reading and being taught Gods' Word by very Bible-knowledgeable preachers and teachers at church, the more I know of His Word, the easier it is to 'connect the dots' of what is being taught to the rest of His Word.

I hesitate in bringing up the term: dispensation, as I know there's more than a few anti-dispensationalists on this forum. There are dispensationalists that will argue how many dispensations are in the Bible. It's easy to think of dispensations like raising a child. As a toddler, we know they are learning much and we're certainly not teaching them calculus before they can even count to 10. As teens, we reinforce what they've been taught in their early years, and add to that how to drive a car, the basics of dating, and in school, they get some higher level math, science, etc taught to them. I'd call it a dispensation of cash to put them through college. In short, as parents, we both teach and treat our children differently as they grow up and eventually go out on their own...although we're still concerned about their welfare and may help them if needed.

Knowing what dispensation God is using dealing with individuals in the Bible is important, particularly the Old Testament. Dispensations are serial, where one ends, the next one begins. But there is sometimes a brief overlap between them when necessary. Adam and Eve were in one dispensation (innocence). There were several intervening dispensations until the dispensation of law through Moses. Once Paul started his apostleship to the Gentiles beginning with his 3 years in Arabia being taught by Jesus, the dispensation of grace officially began. Prior to Jesus and Paul in Arabia, the age of grace (aka dispensation) was completely hidden from everyone. Even from Jesus' disciples. He even told them He was going to Jerusalem to fulfill all prophecy about His first coming and they understood none of it. Gods' going to the Gentiles through Paul was kept hidden as well.

Luke 18:31-34 (KJV)
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

The dispensation of grace actually overlapped the dispensation of law. Paul started his ministry to the Gentiles roughly 40 AD, but the temple continued (dispensation of law) continued until its destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. At that point, praying at the temple, the temple priests, animal sacrifices, etc ended...ie, the dispensation of law ended. Until Paul came along, salvation by grace through faith alone was completely unknown. Were the Jews that believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah saved because of grace? Nope. During Jesus' ministry, Jews only needed to believe that He WAS the promised Messiah. Period. Just like Peter told Jesus -

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (KJV)

Nothing about Jesus death for our sins, burial and resurrection. Just faith that He was the Messiah.

Only Paul taught salvation through grace by faith alone. Of course, our fully believing that Jesus IS the Son of God that paid for all our sins at the cross is first and foremost. His death was the perfect sacrifice for sins, exactly as animal sacrifices for sins were made under the law.

Ephesians 2:7-10 (KJV)
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul all about grace. Not law. And wrote of our not being under the law, but of grace.

Romans 6:14-18 (KJV)
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Just to clarify the dispensation grace, it was kept hidden (eg, a mystery) until revealed to Paul -

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (KJV)

Galatians 1:11-12 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is Paul alone that was taught and teaches the dispensation of grace -

Ephesians 3:1 (KJV)
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 1:24-27 (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Hopefully, all the preceding helps clarify Paul's writings. He makes it clear that being under the law (Exodus-John) is NOT the same as being under grace (Romans-Philemon).

Many good points. Not much up on the dispens. yet, I understand it better now as the "overlapping".
Agreed, until Paul was commissioned to preach to the Gentiles that they were all still under the law. The Jews in the OT, or those before Christ, looked forward to Him and we look back.

Good post.

 
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Bob Estey

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You seem to be missing my point. You seem to be saying that God made sure they got some parts right, but not other parts. The inconsistency bothers me.

Much love!
I don't think the Lord looks at the Bible like you do. You think the Bible is the Word of God. Maybe the Lord thinks it's a book of information compiled by people. He's made sure that the Bible is a trustworthy account, but when it comes to opinions expressed by Paul and others, you need to use discernment, just as you would when listening to your pastor's sermon.
 

BloodBought 1953

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I don't think the Lord looks at the Bible like you do. You think the Bible is the Word of God. Maybe the Lord thinks it's a book of information compiled by people. He's made sure that the Bible is a trustworthy account, but when it comes to opinions expressed by Paul and others, you need to use discernment, just as you would when listening to your pastor's sermon.


If you can go through the Bible and “ pick and choose” what you Choose to accept or reject, its worthless....most people can see the obvious Truth of that.....
 

Bob Estey

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If you can go through the Bible and “ pick and choose” what you Choose to accept or reject, its worthless....most people can see the obvious Truth of that.....
You can't pick and choose when God and Jesus are directly quoted. You have to obey.
 

Davy

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But aren't you saying that we have to treat his words as if they are God's words?

Are you saying God's written Word is not inspired??

If you don't believe God's Holy Writ is inspired by The Holy Spirit directly from God Himself through His servants, then what are you doing put the label Christian on your Faith space? You are a Christian, right?
 

BloodBought 1953

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There is no doubt that the writings of Paul were inspired by the Holy Spirit and were put in writing by Paul, either with his own hand or with the help of a scribe.

The writer of scriptures of the book of Acts, also without doubt, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. And much had been written about Paul, his person, his election, his conversion, his previous work, his works after conversion, his calling and ministry, his encounter and experiences with the Lord Jesus Christ, how he was taught of many things concerning the gospel, Jesus Christ, truth, and was given revelation concerning the things of the Spirit of God, not by men, but by the Lord Himself. And what he received from the Lord is what he preached, taught, and written about.

Tong
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On at least one occasion ,Paul confided that he was offering his opinion and it was NOT God that was speaking through him....We can easily infer by what Paul revealed that God was using Paul as His “ Mouthpiece” unless Paul indicated otherwise.....
 
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Tong2020

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On at least one occasion ,Paul confided that he was offering his opinion and it was NOT God that was speaking through him....We can easily infer by what Paul revealed that God was using Paul as His “ Mouthpiece” unless Paul indicated otherwise.....
Also to @Bob Estey

What do you say, how should we treat the Bible we now have, at least those which are said to be written by Paul? Are they to be all taken as “scriptures”? Take for consideration the following passages, for example in Romans:

Romans 1:7-15; 9:1-5;10:1;15:14-19, 22-32; 16:1-16, 21-23

Tong
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BloodBought 1953

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Also to @Bob Estey

What do you say, how should we treat the Bible we now have, at least those which are said to be written by Paul? Are they to be all taken as “scriptures”? Take for consideration the following passages, for example in Romans:

Romans 1:7-15; 9:1-5;10:1;15:14-19, 22-32; 16:1-16, 21-23

Tong
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According to Peter, Paul’s writings were “ the Wisdom Of God”

According to Peter, Paul’s Letters were additional “parts of Scripture” ....

Check out 2 Peter 3:16
 
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