The scriptures are clear that God desires all men to be saved. A sovereign God can allow free will. A sovereign God can know our ultimate choice without making it for us. People are not predestined to become rapist or child molesters. Once you're saved you are predestined to adoption, to be conformed to the image of God, to be justified, to be glorified, to redemption. All of these things take place at the Rapture. Predestinated is used only 5 times in the scripture. Read them correctly with saved to rapture in mind. Romans 8:23, Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11. Predestination starts at salvation.
Are you part of the elect?
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Yes, He desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). But His will is a different thing altogether. I'll offer this parable... :) A person is trying very hard to lose weight. She really wants (desires) a piece of chocolate cake for dessert, but, her will trumps her desire and she passes up indulging herself with the cake. This is called will power. :) By the same token, God's heartfelt desire is that all would be saved, but not all will be saved; God's justice demands the wages of sin be met -- this is the will of the Father -- and some will bear that burden themselves instead of repenting of their sin, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and His bearing our burden on our behalf on the cross. As Paul points out in Romans 9:16, it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy, and God has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills. So, there is indeed human (free) will and exertion, but our salvation depends not on our will or exertion but on God and His mercy.
Nobody's denying that. We all have free will, and we all have a choice to make, and God's offer of salvation requires us to make a choice. The issue not about choice or whether our choice is free or not. It is about whether we are born again or not, made alive by the Spirit and thus enabled to freely choose God. As Jesus tells Nicodemus, the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes... so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit (John 3:8). Until that point, we are dead in our sin and cannot choose God... we will not fail to choose against God, because we are not of God until then. So our choice depends on God's initial work in our hearts -- whether He does that work via His Holy Spirit (or not) and causes us to be, as Peter puts it, born again to a living hope. Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 that it is by God's grace that we have been saved through faith, and this is not our own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Paul also says that if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace (Romans 11:6). Jacobus Arminius, however unwittingly -- as Pelagius did before him -- made faith out to be a work of man rather than the gift of God, and that is antithetical to Scripture.
No, but all people are sinners, and some are given up to their own selfish desires and passions (Romans 1), and some unfortunately become rapists or child molesters. As for God, though, using Paul's words in Romans 9:22-24, in desiring to show His wrath and to make known his power, He has endured with much patience these vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.
The opposite is true. As Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will. The saving comes at the point of the Spirit's work in our hearts, which -- as in Acts 13:48 ("... when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed...") -- happens for each individual at the time God appoints.
There is no "Rapture." Jesus's return is certainly a rapturous event, but there is no time that God takes His people out of the world. He is with us every step of the way -- walking with us even as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death (Psalm 23), and when Jesus returns, it is a once-and-for-all event. The judgment ensues, the ones on the wrong side of that judgment are sent away, and eternity begins. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms, right? :)
Again, As Ephesians 4-5 says, God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. So for those who are predestined to eternal life, that predestination occurs long before salvation is actually effected in any individual's heart. Continuing, in love God predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.
Grace and peace to all.
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I've seen all the Calvinist talking points before. I see things differently. The important thing is that my salvation and I truly hope yours will have us worshiping in Heaven together one day soon.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
"I think we will find the gate to heaven open."
Heaven's Gate founder Marshall Applewhite
I thought I'd seen you somewhere before.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I think you are mischaracterizing my comment. I believe heaven is open to all that obey the Lord's commandments.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
This one I want to investigate a little more on my own time, in light of Paul's frequent use of the phrase, "In Christ", and particularly relevant to this discussion, Ephesians 1:4-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace ...
I've run across Robert Shank's book, Elect in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Election, which does a deep dive into this topic. I see Amazon has it in Kindle format. I think I'll take a look-see.
Lifelong_Sinner, while you're studying the Bible and getting comfortable in your despair, spend some time in the Gospels and get to know Jesus. What He did, what He said, how He treated the outcasts and the throwaways, and what He said about His Father's love. Hey, you don't know what decrees God may or may not have made before the foundation of the world, but can you at least go to Jesus? Maybe Jesus won't turn you away.
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I'm sure you have. And I've seen all the Arminian talking points before (those of Jacobus Arminius, which were refuted at the Synod of Dort in 1618-19). But putting a label on something and dismissing it is, I think, something none of us should do. The "talking points" I offered previously are not really John Calvin's, but rather straight from Scripture, which, of course, is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).
Right, I get that, but again, just dismissing something blindly because of the label attached just shouldn't be done. It's a discussion worth having. This difference of opinion goes back long before the days of Calvin and Arminius, as I'm sure you know. Augustine and Pelagius were the faces of it centuries earlier. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the other reformers were just a human beings (and sinners) like you and me, but championed a Biblical soteriology that had been badly obfuscated, mainly by the Catholic Church for political reasons. The Holy Spirit used the reformers mightily, despite their faults/sin, to maintain the integrity of God's Word even up to today.
Absolutely. Agreed.
Grace and peace to you.
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That's one of the places I'm looking at, "we have every spiritual blessing in Christ."
I've heard this referred to as "Sonship Doctrine", that as we are immersed into Christ, we are sons of God as Jesus is the Son of God, and we share His place.
Much love!
bbyrd009
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almost certain our current concept of hell came from norse/angle scribes who just had no better word to translate the original into, Bob; so you might look that phrase up. Anyway, the Bible states many times, many different ways, that that scenario just isnt true, and i guess you can look these up too,
and you and your sons will be here with me
that’s Samuel (accepted) speaking to king saul (rejected) through the Witch of Endor
all go to the same place
No one has ever gone up to heaven…
There is only One Immortal
All sins will be forgiven
The Father judges no one, but has given all judgement to the Son
and some others, and i guess you’ll want to read the religious refutes to those too but you’ll find them, and it is for you to decide if they hold water or not. Now Tartarus is also xlated as “hell,” and that could be made to fit our concept i guess, but near as i can tell not only do the “repentant” not go to hell, no one does.
Now might it seem that Scripture is inferring an “afterlife?” sure! It is written so as to hide wisdom from the wise right, and Constantine, being firmly Cult of Sol Invictus like most ppl in that region were then, i guess just basically dragged all of that into Christianity when he “converted.” Our “afterlife” is supposed to begin when we are “converted” i think? “Buried with Him in death, raised to new life in Him” sound fam?
Ps and if you hear the word “sin” being discussed by the people who are supposed to be bringing Good News then i would run, run like the wind, Bob. Look for ppl talking about forgiveness imo. Which i say bc the hell talkers are also preoccupied with sin, and fwiw they will even demonstrate in their speech/posts that they are still firmly “under the law,” once you learn what to listen for; “its like this, its like that, this is the ‘truth,’ you have to do this, you cant do that, i know what im talking about, you are obviously lost,” on and on.
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It might surprise you but I'm not Arminian. I do not put any stock in the Synod of Dort. I do not put any doctrinal value in Calvinism nor Arminianism. I feel that both have roots in Gnostic teachings and the underlined assumptions (definitions) that accompany both views are flawed. I put my faith in Jesus Christ and understand that my logic on these matters is inferior and its foolish to lean on our own understanding in certain matters.
This guy goes into depth on the matter of election. I'm not sure I agree with everything here but it makes a lot of sense. This guy is a strong strong opponent of Calvinism. He does make a lot of good points to ponder.
Agreed. I think we can gain even more insight by remembering that, like Abraham, Christ's righteousness is accredited to us, and also what Paul further says in Colossians 2 and 3, that we have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so we walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him (2:7), and we have been raised with Christ, so we set our minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, and we have died and our lives are hidden with Christ in God (3:1-3).
Hope this helps you folks as much as it has helped me to realize who I am in Christ, and that my true identity is in Christ and not in myself.
Grace and peace to you.
It helps me tremendously!
I have to keep in mind, whatever in me that doesn't look just like Jesus is "old me", not "new me", and is suitable for burning.
Much love!
Hmm... well, you might not identify your understandings with him and his teachings, but it seems you certainly believe intensely in his five premises, that:
- man retained, even after the fall, the ability in and of himself to choose God (false; the man not of God will never lift a finger to do God's will; each of us has gone astray, each to his own way [Isaiah], and thus is dead in his sin [Romans])
- election (and condemnation on the Day of Judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith (or non-faith) of each person (false; faith is the gift of God [Ephesians, Hebrews])
- the atonement was for everyone but only efficacious for the person who had manufactured faith in himself (false; God gave to Jesus who He gave Him, and Jesus will lose none of them [John])
- God's saving grace, effected by His Spirit, is not irresistible (false; God's purposes cannot be thwarted [Job, the Psalms, Philippians])
- believers are not beyond the possibility of falling from God's grace (false; we are kept from stumbling in God's power to the end [Jude])
I would agree regarding Pelagianism/Arminianism.
Ah yes, me too, but do you think that you did this in and of yourself? Because Pelagius and Arminius certainly did. And that is directly opposed to what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 -- "...by grace (we) have been saved through faith... (a)nd this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... (f)or we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them...") -- as I said above. It's also opposed to what Paul says in Philippians 2:12-13 ("work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to [so that we] will and to [so that we] work for His good pleasure.").
Fair enough, but we see these things which God has said and can understand them. I have watched some of Kevin Thompson's videos. They are filled with false premises about what Calvin (and thus Calvinists) believe, as well as inaccurate takes on Scriptural passages themselves (like his take on 2 Thessalonians 2:13 *). This is a very common theme with those who attempt to refute it, regardless of their personal perspectives.
* The more accurate translation of this verse is not "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation..." [KJV], but rather "God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved..." [ESV]. The KJV is not wrong, but because of the antiquated language is easier to misread than the ESV. Plus, in interpreting "from the beginning" he erroneously sees that as from the beginning of Paul's ministry rather than from the foundation of the world, God's creation, which is totally out of context and is quite astounding in and of itself.
Grace and peace to you.
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That old question, the chicken, or the egg?
Are we born again so that we will choose to be born again? Re-created so that we can receive Jesus?
To as many as received Him, believing in His name, God gave the right to become children of God . . . born of God.
Much love!
The fact is that before we are born of the Spirit, we are dead in our sin. When one is dead, he or she is unable to do anything. The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)... they know nothing of their sinfulness and need of salvation or a Savior through Whom this salvation may be obtained. Dead is... well, dead is dead. :) But being born again of the Spirit is what -- in the words of Isaiah (35) -- causes our blind eyes to be opened, our deaf ears to be unstopped, our lameness healed so that we may leap like a deer, and our muteness cured so that we might sing for joy.
Yes, the same number, which speaks to the inability of anyone created by Him to thwart His purposes -- in Calvinistic terms, the inability of anyone created by Him to resist His saving grace.
Grace and peace to you!
"Received Him", and "believing in His name", these are "active voice" verbs, so they are done by the person themself.
Do you consider yourself Calvinist?
Much love!
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