Are you part of the elect?

[PinSeeker]

What I'm coming to understand is that your POV is that without anything to do with what the man thinks or does, God gives rebirth to the man, who then goes on into the Christian life, beginning with repentance and believing in Jesus. Is that correct?

Pretty much, yes. Again, Paul says (in Romans 9:16) that it -- God's purpose of election -- depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. And (in Ephesians 1:4-5) he says that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (and thus) predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will. Regardless of what my point of view is, it can't be any clearer than that.

My POV is that rebirth follows the man believing in and receiving Jesus.

Fair enough, but that flies directly in the face of the two citations above.

You would say that man requires a grace gift from God before he can do anything, and that grace gift is regeneration.

Sort of... :) I would say that man must be given this new birth in the Spirit before he will accept God as His god or anything of God. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 2:12-13, that we (Christians) have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

I would also say man requires a grace gift, and that gift is the ability to make a choice whether to believe or not.

Okay, don't disagree; this grace gift is new life in the Spirit. And that enables us to then choose wisely. :) Okay, look. Sure, before we are born again, we can make choices, even regarding salvation. What I am saying is that since we are dead in our sin (a result of the Fall, man's natural state, sometimes called the human condition), we will make a choice, but we will not fail to choose... unwisely.

One question I'd ask . . . why would the man need to choose to repent and believe if he's been reborn into a new heart/nature?

God's execution of His purpose of election does not absolve us of any personal responsibility, including making the choice, acknowledging it publicly, and then acting on it throughout the rest of our lives. Right.

Wouldn't that new heart/nature already believe? Already been cleansed of sin?

Yes! And the will follows... is driven by the heart, as I have said. But like I said above, God's saving grace, while it comes to us freely, demands our responsibility... that we live as becomes followers of Christ. And repentance is not just a once-and-for-all thing; the "old man" is still with us, part of us (we are still sinners), so we continually confess our sin, asking forgiveness for such, knowing that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). So we live a life of repentance, striving to put off the old man and put on the new (Colossians 3:10-11).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You see "not your own doing" as saved through faith. I see "not your own doing" as given grace. Without God's grace, we could not have salvation by faith. Grace is God's free gift and not our own doing.

Actually, both are true. You're separating faith out from what Paul said there in Ephesians 2:8-10 -- taking words out of his mouth, as it were, which is really just as bad as putting words into one's mouth.

In other words, we cannon manufacture grace, we cannot earn grace, we cannot purchase grace. Nothing we can do can earn grace. God has a gift of grace for us but we have to have faith.

I totally agree with this. But faith is included in that. This will help, I think: faith -- saving faith -- is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a spiritual gift, as we see in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 (emphasis mine):

"For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."​

This is certainly not to say that some Christians are given faith and some are not -- or that the faith of some Christians is insufficient -- but that some have a greater faith than others, and this is the will of God to apportion as He chooses, for the corporate good. So we cannot have this faith unless it is given to us from something (Someone) outside of ourselves. God even defines (through the writer of Hebrews) faith for us; it is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. This assurance and conviction must be given and thus comes to us from outside ourselves. This is just part of a greater discourse on faith that begins in Hebrews 10:19 and wrapping up in Hebrews 12:2, where we read that Jesus is the author/founder and perfecter of our faith.

I do not see "works" as a thought. I see works as an action. I think the definition of works is routinely abused.

That may be, but the point is that good works inevitably follow God's grace of new birth in the Spirit and the gift of faith. Before this, we are capable of doing good things, for sure, but God regards them as "filthy rags." And the implication of what you're saying -- however unintended it may be, and it is unintended, I know -- is that faith is a work of man. No, God works saving faith in man by giving Him new life in the Spirit, and in the Spirit's then ongoing work in the man. It is God Who begins the good work in man, and He will -- will -- bring it to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm surprised at this. Does that mean you are universalist?

Absolutely not.

That God chooses those who will be saved, all whom God chooses for salvation will be saved, and God prefers all to be saved?

That last part seems to be where you're not making a distinction. Let's take each individually:

"God chooses those who will be saved"
Yes. This is His will.

"all whom God chooses for salvation will be saved"
Yes. This is His purpose being carried to completion without fail.

"God prefers all to be saved"
He desires that all would be saved, yes, but He will not compromise Himself in any way, and this includes His will and His justice.​

I'm not getting the idea you are saying God saves everyone.

Right. We see that clearly in Matthew 7, Matthew 25, Luke 16, and Revelation 20, to cite a few passages.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[TEXBOW]

Actually, both are true. You're separating faith out from what Paul said there in Ephesians 2:8-10 -- taking words out of his mouth, as it were, which is really just as bad as putting words into one's mouth.


I totally agree with this. But faith is included in that. This will help, I think: faith -- saving faith -- is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a spiritual gift, as we see in 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 (emphasis mine):

"For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."​

This is certainly not to say that some Christians are given faith and some are not -- or that the faith of some Christians is insufficient -- but that some have a greater faith than others, and this is the will of God to apportion as He chooses, for the corporate good. So we cannot have this faith unless it is given to us from something (Someone) outside of ourselves. God even defines (through the writer of Hebrews) faith for us; it is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. This assurance and conviction must be given and thus comes to us from outside ourselves. This is just part of a greater discourse on faith that begins in Hebrews 10:19 and wrapping up in Hebrews 12:2, where we read that Jesus is the author/founder and perfecter of our faith.


That may be, but the point is that good works inevitably follow God's grace of new birth in the Spirit and the gift of faith. Before this, we are capable of doing good things, for sure, but God regards them as "filthy rags." And the implication of what you're saying -- however unintended it may be, and it is unintended, I know -- is that faith is a work of man. No, God works saving faith in man by giving Him new life in the Spirit, and in the Spirit's then ongoing work in the man. It is God Who begins the good work in man, and He will -- will -- bring it to completion at the Day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you!

I view works as evidence of faith not requirements for salvation.

 

[marks]

"God prefers all to be saved"
He desires that all would be saved, yes, but He will not compromise Himself in any way, and this includes His will and His justice.

Let me see if I'm following you.

God desires all men to be saved.
All men whom God chose to be saved will be saved.
None whom God did not choose to be saved will be saved.
God chose some of men to be saved.

God acts contrary to His desire?

I feel like I'm missing something here. Why would not God choose all men to be saved? (or am I getting my conversations confused?)

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

This "general call", is it honest?

Sure it is. Think of it as an invitation. All are called in this general way.

Or more like were I to call my dead cat?

LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

And that enables us to then choose wisely. :) Okay, look. Sure, before we are born again, we can make choices, even regarding salvation. What I am saying is that since we are dead in our sin (a result of the Fall, man's natural state, sometimes called the human condition), we will make a choice, but we will not fail to choose... unwisely.

Your version of "choose" seems a little disengenous to me. It more sounds like you are describing that we will follow our programming.

We will always not choose Jesus until we are regenerated, after which we will always choose Jesus. That doesn't really sound like we are actually making choices, if the choices are always predetermined by something not us.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

I view works as evidence of faith...

Great! Me, too. Yes, Scripture is clear on that.

...not requirements for salvation.

Well, Jesus did say, though, that "...if (we) have faith like a grain of mustard seed, nothing will be impossible for (us)” (Matthew 17:20; Luke 17:6). But fortunately, this requirement is fulfilled for us, in that we are given this saving faith by God via His Spirit. What He's saying, too, is that the size of our faith matters not; that even if it is very small, it is still 100% effective.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your version of "choose" seems a little disengenous to me. It more sounds like you are describing that we will follow our programming. We will always not choose Jesus until we are regenerated, after which we will always choose Jesus. That doesn't really sound like we are actually making choices, if the choices are always predetermined by something not us.

God makes the choice to change hearts/natures... or not. We always make choices; we have wills. But regarding salvation, our choice is in the context of His gracious choice. Only God, as Creator, is a "free agent," if you will; we, as His created, are not. Paul anticipates in Romans 9 the objection you are essentially making thusly:

"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' "

We should just leave it at this, that if God were to leave us all to ourselves, we would never choose the Right... this is a result of the Fall, and the human condition. But because of His never-stopping, never-giving-up, unbreaking, always-and-forever love, He does not leave us (members of His elect) to ourselves but changes our hearts -- gives us new life in the Spirit -- so that we will freely choose the Right.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

But regarding salvation, our choice is in the context of His gracious choice. Only God, as Creator, is a "free agent," if you will; we, as His created, are not.

It seems to me that there is a lot of confusion over what "free will" and human choice really mean.

Call it what you want, but just the same, someone is choosing what's going to happen regarding each man's relationship with his Creator. So either it's man choosing to either be with God or not, or it's God choosing who is going to be with Him, and who will not.

"It is God's sovereign decree, and none can overturn it, that man must choose." That would be how I'd state the determination of whether a man will be with God or not.

God has already reconciled humanity to Himself, what remains is that we receive that reconciliation.

Paul anticipates in Romans 9 the objection you are essentially making thusly:

"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' "

This is something else, I'm not going that direction. This would be man's response to a rejecting Creator. I'm looking at the internal consistency of your view or understanding of God.

I don't "find fault" with God, but I don't believe He both does and doesn't want people to be in relationship with Him, or that, desiring to commune with man, with His being the only determinative choice, that He goes on to choose to not commune with some. That sounds contradictory to me.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

You said "the grace given by God", but I'd sooner say "a grace".

Sure. A particular grace, that He gives to His elect, as opposed to general grace, which He has on everyone, whether they acknowledge it or not.

God gives us faith to believe, and we have to mix it with His Word, or none of it will do us any good.

Well, His Word is formative, for sure; it helps us to be more like Jesus. Sure.

At the end of the day, I'm thinking your idea is that God is assembling for Himself a family, and my idea is that God is assembling for Himself a family of those who want to be His family.

Well, I'd say it's a both/and thing, not an either/or.

It's nice to have someone here to discuss this stuff with that can be nice about it!

Wholeheartedly agreed!

is the supposition that the grace given by God precedes the act of a sinner exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ.

This would describe your view also, is that right?

Yes.

But the difference being maybe degree of grace? or the effect of that grace?

Not sure what you mean, here. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion (per Moses and Paul). There are not different degrees or effects of God's saving grace. It is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Well, His Word is formative, for sure; it helps us to be more like Jesus. Sure.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God

Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

The Word of God puts faith into us.

Well, I'd say it's a both/and thing, not an either/or.

I'd still have to go back on this to who is actually making the determinative choice.

So I have 10 computers, and 5 of them I set to back up the drive before shutdown.

I shut down all 10 computers, and 5 of them choose to back up the drive, and 5 do not.

How is this different?

I think God tells us to choose because He's already chosen concerning Man, having chosen to provide the way of salvation for all of us, and then urges us to receive His provision. And then leaves it with us to receive or not receive.

Not sure what you mean, here. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion (per Moses and Paul). There are not different degrees or effects of God's saving grace. It is what it is.

To clarify, a grace that regenerates and restores one to God, outside of their own desire, or a grace that suspends the hold of the devil to allow one to to desire life, when it is presented.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

It seems to me that there is a lot of confusion over what "free will" and human choice really mean.

It's really kind of a reaction of indignation -- pride, really -- that "surely I'm my own person!" and that "no one controls me except me!" And this is a result of the Fall.

Call it what you want, but just the same, someone is choosing what's going to happen regarding each man's relationship with his Creator. So either it's man choosing to either be with God or not, or it's God choosing who is going to be with Him, and who will not.

Again, it's both/and.

God has already reconciled humanity to Himself, what remains is that we receive that reconciliation.

God has provided a means of reconciliation for all of humanity. The ones who are truly reconciled to Him are the ones in Christ, Who is the mediator between God and Man.

(Romans 9:19) is something else, I'm not going that direction. This would be man's response to a rejecting Creator.

This is Paul's personal letter to those in the church in Rome. He's talking to Christians. The whole of Romans 9-11 is about God's sovereignty over His creation. So no, it would be a response of indignation at not being in total control as God is.

I don't "find fault" with God...

Good; I didn't think otherwise...

...but I don't believe He both does and doesn't want people to be in relationship with Him...

Neither do I.

...or that, desiring to commune with man, with His being the only determinative choice, that He goes on to choose to not commune with some.

Neither do I.

First, with regard to Christians, it's His choice, as Creator, before it can be ours. Even with non-Christians, they make a choice, too, but it's just that if they have not been made alive in the Spirit, they will always make the wrong choice.

Second, it's not a "determinative choice," as if His choice "forces" ours. Our choices are always free.

And third, He leaves some to their own passions and desires (Romans 1). He could do that with everyone, but for some (those He gives new life in the Spirit) he does not, and this is His prerogative as Creator. Even for those that He does leave to their own selfish passions and desires, in His love, He endures with much patience these "vessels of wrath" (Romans 9).

That sounds contradictory to me.

It's not, but I can't do much about how you perceive things.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Both are true: God's elect is surely a corporate entity, the Body of Christ. But individuals are members of this corporate entity and thus themselves members of God's elect.

Jesus is "my elect servant", Isaiah.

We are baptized into Jesus, sharing what He has, including His Father's election. Is how I see it. All we have, we have in Christ. Including election.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God... Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. The Word of God puts faith into us.

Sure. This is the Work of the Spirit. A lot of folks hear the Word of God but do not have this faith and do not believe. Why do you think this is so?

I'd still have to go back on this to who is actually making the determinative choice. So I have 10 computers, and 5 of them I set to back up the drive before shutdown. I shut down all 10 computers, and 5 of them choose to back up the drive, and 5 do not. How is this different?

Well, computers are just pieces of metal, really. Inanimate objects which possess no will of their own. :) Let me modify this metaphor a bit. If for the first five computers you change the CPU to something much, much more powerful than those still in the other five, then those first five computers are then capable in and of themselves to do far greater things. No? :)

I think God tells us to choose because He's already chosen concerning Man, having chosen to provide the way of salvation for all of us, and then urges us to receive His provision.

Well, this is the general call of Scripture... His Word.

And then leaves it with us to receive or not receive.

There are no free agents in creation. :)

To clarify, a grace that regenerates and restores one to God, outside of their own desire, or a grace that suspends the hold of the devil to allow one to to desire life, when it is presented.

For God, it's not about desire, but about the inclination of the heart, the nature of all individuals, which is initially corrupted and wholly inclined toward sin as a result of the Fall, and this is only worthy of God's condemnation. For some, He changes hearts, giving them a new nature, which enables them to choose wisely, and for others, not so much, leaving them to themselves.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is "my elect servant", Isaiah.

Jesus is God the Son. Isaiah was a prophet. Isaiah was certainly an elect servant of God, but no "better" in any way than any one of us; he was a sinner, too. He was just used by God in a different way than we are today... although for the same general purpose.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Jesus is God the Son. Isaiah was a prophet. Isaiah was certainly an elect servant of God, but no "better" in any way than any one of us; he was a sinner, too. He was just used by God in a different way than we are today... although for the same general purpose.

Grace and peace to you.

I'm sorry, I meant I was referencing Isaiah. See what laziness gets me? Confusion!

Isaiah prophesied,

Isaiah 42:1-4 KJV
1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3) A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4) He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Jesus is the Elect, the Son of God, the Last Man. Being immersed into Jesus we share His "new humanity", we become sons of God, we are His elect, chosen.

Outside of Christ we don't have any of this. Everything - everything - we receive from God, including election, we receive by being "in Christ".

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus is the Elect...

No, He's not. The Elect can be and are referred to also as the Body of Christ, but Jesus is not the Elect. Jesus most certainly gave us the model of how we should live because we are members of God's Elect, though. But as I said, Jesus is God in the flesh. Further, the Elect are predestined by God for glory, whereas Jesus had no need of predestination because He, from all eternity, was and is and will always be in possession of the same glory as the Father, with the Father.

(Jesus is) the Son of God, the Last Man. Being immersed into Jesus we share His "new humanity", we become sons of God, we are His elect, chosen. Outside of Christ we don't have any of this. Everything - everything - we receive from God, including election, we receive by being "in Christ".

Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

No, He's not. The Elect can be and are referred to also as the Body of Christ, but Jesus is not the Elect.

Isaiah 42:1-4 KJV
1) Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3) A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4) He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Ephesians 1:3-4 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Much love!

 

[marks]

But as I said, Jesus is God in the flesh.

Amen!! And so we are brothers!

Much love!