Who can speak to the text?

[face2face]

Luke 10:
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The fall of an Angel, Satan IS A Reference.
Fallen Angels (demons) power having over powered men IS Knowledge.
Disciples speaking commands to Fallen (demon) Angels (that they Depart from men), Speaking such Commands With And In the Power of Jesus’ NAME...was being revealed as a Joy of the Commanding men.

If you are familiar with Scripture, Satan is Referenced AS The Devil and other angels that follow Satan are referenced as devils.
Devils Are Angels that Stood Against God and Fell from Holiness.

The Scripture in question is men Observing By the Power of Jesus’ NAME ... devils being Separated from men, in a similar fashion Satan was Separated from God, ie. Gods Power.

It’s such a simple concept. I do not find what your fixation is or what you are trying to prove...other than your opening statement...that Angels can not Sin, which is ludicrous.

Do you know what a simile is?

 

[face2face]

@face2face ,

If at the center of your interpretation is the supposition that angels cannot sin, I'd also point to this passage:

Isaiah 24:17-23 KJV
17) Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18) And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The host of the high ones on high = celestial beings
The kings of the earth upon the earth = terestrial beings

Much love!

So you believe from that verse the entire angelic host of heaven will be locked up in a literal pit?

Okay.

 

[face2face]

This acceptance of Scripture as written doe not require a reinterpretation of passages and words and events as your explanation does. I think you need to take a relook at the passages and understand that the sons of korah and the 250 were no greater sinners than other sinners. They are not kept in everlasting chains. they are like all other lost- in the place of torments.

Are you down playing their rebellion?
You dont believe the earth opening up and swallowing them and their families whole to this day is not represented by everlasting chains? You dont believe the chains are literal do you?

 

[face2face]

Talk to me about "oiketerion", our celestial body. The angels left their oiketerion.

Much love!

"A place where one dwells permanently" i.e the 250 Korah, Dathan & Abiram had a place, and a house they dwelt in which God allotted their families and you know what they wanted don't you?

 

[marks]

So you believe from that verse the entire angelic host of heaven will be locked up in a literal pit?

Okay.

Is that what I said?

No it is not.

Care to actually address the post? Or just leave it at this deflection?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"A place where one dwells permanently" i.e the 250 Korah, Dathan & Abiram had a place, and a house they dwelt in which God allotted their families and you know what they wanted don't you?

Your OP title was about speaking to the text, you seem allergic to that.

There are two places in the Bible that word appears. Numbers is not one of them.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Your OP title was about speaking to the text, you seem allergic to that.

There are two places in the Bible that word appears. Numbers is not one of them.

Much love!

It seems as though you are trying to make a point? Make it.

 

[marks]

Are you down playing their rebellion?
You dont believe the earth opening up and swallowing them and their families whole to this day is not represented by everlasting chains? You dont believe the chains are literal do you?

This sounds like something that makes sense to you, but something I don't find written in Scripture, this equivalency.

To me, being cast alive into the pit is not the same as being bound in chains of darkness, they are different, so I'd need to see something in the Bible that tells me one means the others.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It seems as though you are trying to make a point? Make it.

Oiketerion.

2 places it's used.

Angels left their oiketerion.

The redeemed have an oiketerion, eternal in the heavens. It's our celestial body.

The angels left their celestial bodies.

People don't even experience their celestial bodies until we are dead.

Angels left there "first estate". That's how they were already. Oiketerion.

This word is only used this way in Scripture.

The rebellion of Korah does not change any of these realities of the text.

Much love!

 

[marks]

@face2face

Never did see a proper response to this . . .

If at the center of your interpretation is the supposition that angels cannot sin, I'd also point to this passage:

Isaiah 24:17-23 KJV
17) Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18) And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The host of the high ones on high = celestial beings
The kings of the earth upon the earth = terestrial beings

The LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth that are upon the earth. The host of the high ones on high are in contrast to those on the earth, they are not on the earth, they are celestial beings, who will be punished. Why, if not for sin?

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Is that what I said?

No it is not.

Care to actually address the post? Or just leave it at this deflection?

Much love!

At that time the Lord will punish the heavenly forces in the heavens...

At that time = At what time @marks ?

heavenly forces in the heavens = Heb “the host of the height in the height.” The “host of the height/heaven” refers to the heavenly luminaries (stars and planets, see, among others, Deuteronomy 4:19; Deuteronomy 17:3; 2 Kings 17:16; 2 Kings 21:3, 2 Kings 5; 2 Kings 23:4–5; 2 Chronicles 33:3-5

When you are positing Scripture can you be more explicit in what you are suggesting the verse means? This is a prophecy about God judging the inhabitants of the earth - try reading the chapter before you post it.

Isaiah 24:2 Cities, townships etc.
Isaiah 24:3 Strong nations
Isaiah 24:4 The poor and needy
Isaiah 24:5 The tyrants and foreigners
And so on and so on...and so on and so on... until you get to the end of the chapter where the fortified cities (on earth) will be brought down.

 

[marks]

At that time = At what time @marks ?

Isaiah 24:23 KJV
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Much love!

 

[marks]

try reading the chapter before you post it.

Oh my! Why didn't I think of that?

 

[marks]

When you are positing Scripture can you be more explicit in what you are suggesting the verse means?

(from my previous post)

Isaiah 24:17-23 KJV
17) Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18) And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The host of the high ones on high = celestial beings
The kings of the earth upon the earth = terestrial beings

Some angels, but not stars and planets, sin.

We can see other verses which will tell us that the heavenly bodies, i.e. planets and stars, follow God's order for them. But some of the angels did not.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

Oiketerion.

2 places it's used.

Angels left their oiketerion.

The redeemed have an oiketerion, eternal in the heavens. It's our celestial body.

The angels left their celestial bodies.

People don't even experience their celestial bodies until we are dead.

Angels left there "first estate". That's how they were already. Oiketerion.

This word is only used this way in Scripture.

The rebellion of Korah does not change any of these realities of the text.

Much love!

Are you saying the word Oiketerion in Jude 6 is used in the exact same way as 2 Corinthians 5:2 concerning your theory of angels sinning?

Jude 6 the angels (messengers) who did not keep within their proper domain

Its referring to people keeping within their assigned domain.

 

[face2face]

Oh my! Why didn't I think of that?

That's the issue...I am not sure you have. You know as well as I do the entire chapter is focused on judgement to take place by the rulers of the earth and its inhabitants...what made you think it has anything to do with your fallen angel theology?

Also note...God uses the Heavens to mean the Political rulers of the earth. Let me know if you want proof although you just posted it.

 

[face2face]

(from my previous post)

Isaiah 24:17-23 KJV
17) Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18) And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22) And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23) Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

The host of the high ones on high = celestial beings
The kings of the earth upon the earth = terestrial beings

Some angels, but not stars and planets, sin.

We can see other verses which will tell us that the heavenly bodies, i.e. planets and stars, follow God's order for them. But some of the angels did not.

Much love!

You choose the wrong Scripture.

 

[Curtis]

All those things you have said are true...the only difference is the meaning you attach to them. Same Bible - I use the NET, ESV, KGV, NKJV and others depending on the application.

There’s always someone with a bizarre twist on interpretation, that’s not a reasonable exegesis of text.

 

[marks]

Are you saying the word Oiketerion in Jude 6 is used in the exact same way as 2 Corinthians 5:2 concerning your theory of angels sinning?

Jude 6 the angels (messengers) who did not keep within their proper domain

Its referring to people keeping within their assigned domain.

I'm saying that's the Biblical usage.

Jude 1:6 KJV
6) And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.



That habitation, it's the same habitation which we live in after our terestrial bodies are like a tent collapsed.

These left theirs. They left their "first estate", or, as we see above, they did not keep their "archen", translated here sovereignty.

There left their realm, left their bodies, for what?

Jude 1:7 KJV
7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"in like manner . . . going after 'strange' flesh", strange, from heteros, flesh of a different kind.

Those men of Sodom, seeking to have sex with God's angels, who were sent to remove Lot. Flesh of a different kind.

1 Corinthians 15:39-40 KJV
39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

That's the issue...I am not sure you have. You know as well as I do the entire chapter is focused on judgement to take place by the rulers of the earth and its inhabitants...what made you think it has anything to do with your fallen angel theology?

Also note...God uses the Heavens to mean the Political rulers of the earth. Let me know if you want proof although you just posted it.

No.

There are spiritual evil rulers in the heavens, per Ephesians 6 for one, we fight not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Satan is the prince of the power of the air, as an example.

Rulers in the heavens are spirit entities.

And just because there are human and spirit messengers, does not mean you can claim all messengers are humans.

That is not a reasonable hermeneutic.