Who can speak to the text?

[face2face]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

Angels were able to sin in the past. Fallen angels still sin, and it appears that teh angels who did not choose to fall no longer are able to.

but these angels mentioned are the same angels in Jude and Genesis 6. these are the angels who left heaven and had sex with women and are now chained to darkness in Tartarus. This was the second and it appears the final rebellion of angels from heaven.

 

[face2face]

Angels were able to sin in the past. Fallen angels still sin, and it appears that teh angels who did not choose to fall no longer are able to.

but these angels mentioned are the same angels in Jude and Genesis 6. these are the angels who left heaven and had sex with women and are now chained to darkness in Tartarus. This was the second and it appears the final rebellion of angels from heaven.

Just another imaginative Christian who can't deal with the text. Answer the question what OT story was Peter and Jude alluding to? Human messengers remember!

 

[Jay Ross]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israel's history could it be alluding to?

The question I have, is why does 2 Peter 2:4 have to be referring to "false prophets" or OT incidents in Israel's history? Could it also be referring to fallen wicked angels, who Isaiah wrote about in chapter 24, in verses 21-22, who would be judged in heaven and gather together with the Kings of the earth, and together they would be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their future punishment.

As to OT stories where they are depicted in the narrative, one example could be the reference to the "four winds of heaven" mentioned in Jer 49:36, Ez 37:9, Dan 7:2, Dan 8:8, and Zech 2:10 in the Old Testament and also in Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27 and Rev 7:1.

However, rather than put down members answering your hypothetical question, would it not have been better to have provided a more detailed overview as to the point that you were wanting to make?

Perhaps Paul provided the best example for what you are asking when he wrote:

Ephesians 6:10-13: –– 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​

Shalom

 

[face2face]

The question I have, is why does 2 Peter 2:4 have to be referring to "false prophets" or OT incidents in Israel's history?

Ah because that is the context of that section of Scripture and clearly 2 Peter 2:1 sets that context very clearly and to avoid it is what you go on to do....

Could it also be referring to fallen wicked angels, who Isaiah wrote about in chapter 24, in verses 21-22, who would be judged in heaven and gather together with the Kings of the earth, and together they would be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their future punishment.

No, because Isaiah is not in view. If you want me to go over to Isaiah 24 and show you the true context there I am more than willing but lets first agree 2 Peter 2:4 is speaking about human messengers who rebelled and God judged.

As to OT stories where they are depicted in the narrative, one example could be the reference to the "four winds of heaven" mentioned in Jer 49:36, Ez 37:9, Dan 7:2, Dan 8:8, and Zech 2:10 in the Old Testament and also in Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27 and Rev 7:1.

However, rather than put down members answering your hypothetical question, would it not have been better to have provided a more detailed overview as to the point that you were wanting to make?

Perhaps Paul provided the best example for what you are asking when he wrote:

Ephesians 6:10-13: –– 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​

Shalom

So you have jumped from 2 Peter 2:4 to Isaiah 24 and then to Ephesians 6 and totally ignored Peters thoughts in 2 Peter 2:1-5.

Do you think that is a good way to read the Bible?

The only instance which could logically be explained Numbers 16. Read it and then go back and read 2 Peter 2:4 - its rather compelling, more so than angels sinning!

I will say this @Jay Ross you were at least willing to respond and give the text a go...well done! Others here couldn't even speak about context, all they wanted to do was run away with fanciful notions.

Take care.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Context...
2 Peter 2:1-3...
"However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. [Matthew 24:24; 1 Timothy 4:1] These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, [Jude 4] and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. [Isaiah 52:5] 3 Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping [2 Peter 3:9]."

History was to repeat because the same enemy corrupted both religious systems...using his tried and true tactics.

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4...
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."
The "angels that sinned" is a allusion to the rebel angels of Noah's day and the term "Tartarus" is used only once in the scriptures to describe a condition of spiritual darkness.....A parallel text is found at Jude 6:
“And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” Showing when it was that these angels “forsook their own proper dwelling place,” Peter speaks of “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed.” (1 Peter 3:19-20) This directly links the matter to the account at Genesis 6:1-4 concerning “the sons of the true God” who abandoned their heavenly abode to cohabit with women in pre-Flood times and produced children by them, such offspring were known as Nephilim (literally those who made others fall).
So the angels that sinned were spirit beings not human messengers of God. These angels often materialized in human form.
Gabriel e.g. appeared as an man to both Daniel and to Mary.

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future

Yes they did come....and they did exactly what the false prophets in Israel had done....they led the people down the wrong path.
Jesus' parable of the "wheat and the weeds" is the same story.....the devil sowed seeds of counterfeit Christianity in the same "field" as Jesus sowed the "wheat"...but having time up his sleeve, the devil did this "while men were sleeping"....by slowly adding things over time, with people who were forbidden to read the Bible so that no one could check and see that they were being fed error after error. With growing power came growing corruption.

but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point.

2 Peter 2:5-7...
"And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come. 7 And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people"....
These incidents set a pattern for the ungodly of things to come....He goes on to say in verse 12..."But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course, 13 suffering harm as their reward for their own harmful course."
God is not fooled by their pretense of being Christ's followers, and their deeds speak loudly about their character...we have seen their kind before. God will deal with them in the same way. History repeats because humans never learn the lessons of the past and repeat the same mistakes, over and over again.

The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

I think that is self evident....

 

[Taken]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

* God “IS” Spirit. God “IS ALL Powerful”. God “gives” Power (and the amount thereof) to whom He pleases. God “takes” Power Away from, whom He pleases, (in a manner, according to Gods Pleasure.)
* Angels “ARE” spirits. They have “MORE” power than earthly (human) men.
(Their “power” is derived “FROM God”.)
* God “IS” without beginning, or ending, ie NOT created.
* Angels “ARE” created.
* Earthly men “ARE” created, FORMED and made, ALIVE. Earthly men “HAVE” a spirit. (It IS their Natural TRUTH...IN THEIR HEARTS THOUGHTS).
* God Himself, has FREEWILL, to MAKE choices.
* Created Angels, Created Earthly men....HAVE FREEWILL, to MAKE choices.
* SIN...IS the express TERM, meaning AGAINST GOD.
* GOD CANNOT SIN, (meaning God can NEVER be AGAINST Himself.
* Angels CAN SIN, CAN BE “AGAINST” God.
* Earthly men CAN SIN, CAN BE “AGAINST” God.
* Angels do “NOT” have a recourse, to be forgiven their Sin Against God.
* Angels do “NOT” have a recourse, to BE reconciled “WITH” God.
* Earthly men “DO” have a recourse, to be Forgiven their Sin Against God.
* Earthly men “DO” have a recourse, to BE reconciled “WITH” God.
* Earthly men “WHO DO” elect to FREELY CHOOSE Gods Offering of “recourse”...”OF Forgiveness and Reconciliation WITH God”...”RECEIVE” ...
MORE POWER “from” God.
* THE “POWER” from God (received unto an Earthly man) PER historical evidence, was given “ancient men”, in increments, bit by bit. Increase by Increase.
* THE “POWER” given from God “forward” to modern men, is similar, Given “individuals”, “babes, maturing, becoming adults”... bit by bit, Increase by Increase.
* THE “POWER” given from God “forward” to “earthly men”...bit by bit...
Reveals .... A DIFFERENCE, between created Angels and created Mankind.
.......Created Angels were CREATED and MADE “WITH” great Power from God.
.......Created Mankind were CREATED “WITHOUT” great Power from God...
RATHER, ARE (by Gods Giving) Recipients TO RECEIVE great Power, and MADE more Powerful

God IS JUST. He “gives” measures of Power to all “EARTHLY” men...
....Earthly men...WHO elect TO BE HIS SERVANT, and USE their “received Power”, TO SERVE God, “and” Advocate FOR God.
...Earthly men....WHO elect TO BE AGAINST God, and USE their “received Power”, TO Stand AGAINST God, “and” even “ADVOCATE” Against God.

* YES...as earthly men RECEIVE POWER from God, (and the bit by bit increase) they ARE “recognized” as “comparable” to Angels.
* Jesus spoke about “earthly men”, receiving increase IN Power FROM God, being ABLE to use that POWER, for miraculous works.

THE LESSON “includes” understanding....Power, earthly men receive from God.....HANGS ON....IF, an individual earthly man....Exercises USE of THAT POWER....TO “SERVE GOD”....OR.....TO “STAND AGAINST GOD”.

THE BIG PICTURE “end of days PROPHETIC result IS:...
*Earthly men WHO, exercised USE of their “received (from God) Power” TO SERVE GOD...shall Be Rewarded with Everlasting LIFE with God.
*Earthly men WHO, exercised USE of their “received (from God) Power” TO
STAND AGAINST GOD...shall have their Power (returned to God), shall NOT be rewarded with Everlasting Life, shall NOT be With God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just another imaginative Christian who can't deal with the text. Answer the question what OT story was Peter and Jude alluding to? Human messengers remember!

Wow your lack of civility is alarming.

but the story is this:

Genesis 6
King James Version

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Only you connect the angels of verse 4 with the false prophets of verse 1. Messengers is a generic term, but prophets are a specific term. As Peter alludes to Noah- it is a direct reference ot the angels that left heaven and had sex with human women. there is no other way to understand that without doing harm to the scriptures

 

[bbyrd009]

well, so you say

 

[Jay Ross]

Ah because that is the context of that section of Scripture and clearly 2 Peter 2:1 sets that context very clearly and to avoid it is what you go on to do....



No, because Isaiah is not in view. If you want me to go over to Isaiah 24 and show you the true context there I am more than willing but lets first agree 2 Peter 2:4 is speaking about human messengers who rebelled and God judged.



So you have jumped from 2 Peter 2:4 to Isaiah 24 and then to Ephesians 6 and totally ignored Peters thoughts in 2 Peter 2:1-5.

Do you think that is a good way to read the Bible?

The only instance which could logically be explained Numbers 16. Read it and then go back and read 2 Peter 2:4 - its rather compelling, more so than angels sinning!

I will say this @Jay Ross you were at least willing to respond and give the text a go...well done! Others here couldn't even speak about context, all they wanted to do was run away with fanciful notions.

Take care.

Thanks for your opinion on what I posted.

It seems that you have a particular view, but you have not provided the evidence to demonstrate or substantiate that your understanding is right. As for my reading the actual text and what it states, you then go on to ask me if this is a good way to read the Bible. Here is a KJV Interlinear snip from PC Study Bible: -



and the corresponding occurrences of the Hebrew word,"ἀγγέλων" found in the New Testament can be found in these verses: -



where this word is consistently translated as "angel," in 30 of the 31 occurrences. Only in Luke 7:24 it is translated as "messengers" of John the Baptist. Angels are also considered to be "messengers of God," and so the understanding that Peter was referring to heavenly entities and not earthly entities is consistent with his use of this Greek word that is also found in 1 Pet 3:22.

As for agreeing with your understanding of 2 Pet 2:4, you have not provided the necessary proof to cause me to change my understanding.

It seem to me that you need to show all of your cards, so to speak, to justify your put downs of the expressed opinions of the responding members of this forum, including myself.

I await you rebuttal, if you truly have one worthy of reading.

Shalom

 

[ScottA]

Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?

The warning is not only to Israel (nor specifically about their history), but to all. That is the point. He only uses Israel and their history for example.

 

[face2face]

Wow your lack of civility is alarming.

The irony here is I've been trying to get @Taken to deal with 2 Peter 2:4 for over a week and all he could do is speak about everything but 2 Peter 2:4, agree patience is low, hence why I moved to another forum where I am now having constructive dialogue with honest Christians who actually want to deal with the text and not run off to Gen 6 or a ventriloquist serpent.

Only you connect the angels of verse 4 with the false prophets of verse 1.

I did not write 2 peter chapter 2. Peter did. He sets the context and if any of you here cannot be open and honest but rather say the context to this chapters is some supernatural agent of evil having fallen from heaven is some heavenly rebellion ( Matthew 6:10 makes that impossible!!!) then I am wasting my time with anything you all say.

Be honest that's all I am asking, be honest - say "I dont know" or say "I do know the true context of 2 Peter 2 but don't make stuff up just because it please you to do so...that's @Taken approach and @Mungo etc. They all just make stuff up rather than dealing with the actual text.

Messengers is a generic term, but prophets are a specific term. As Peter alludes to Noah- it is a direct reference ot the angels that left heaven and had sex with human women. there is no other way to understand that without doing harm to the scriptures

My word the ignorance is so confronting. Show me the text of angels coming down from heaven to have sex with humans - have you been watching Percy Jackson movies?

 

[face2face]

The warning is not only to Israel (nor specifically about their history), but to all. That is the point. He only uses Israel and their history for example.

Whew, thank you for 1. referencing Israel's example in 2 Peter 2:1 and 2. providing us the warning for our present time and for now not forcing fallen angels on the text. The question remains - who are those God judged as unworthy messengers - locked up in darkness

Numbers 16:32

 

[face2face]

Thanks for your opinion on what I posted.

Again thank you for approaching 2 Peter 2:4 as you have

where this word is consistently translated as "angel," in 30 of the 31 occurrences. Only in Luke 7:24 it is translated as "messengers" of John the Baptist. Angels are also considered to be "messengers of God," and so the understanding that Peter was referring to heavenly entities and not earthly entities is consistent with his use of this Greek word that is also found in 1 Pet 3:22. Shalom

Before we proceed, the above statement makes the assumption you know each of those occurrences and predetermined their status as angelic messengers, although having made one exception.

However, messenger "aggelos" is also used in Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:27; Luke 9:52 & James 2:25

Numbers 16:32 fits Peters colorful language regarding the fate of those who would be false messengers in the camp of Israel. Those who await a certain judgement for their actions.

Angels behold the Face of God and as Divine beings do not have the nature to sin (James 1:14)

If divine nature can be tempted with evil your reward is flawed.

 

[Jay Ross]

Again thank you for approaching 2 Peter 2:4 as you have



Before we proceed, the above statement makes the assumption you know each of those occurrences and predetermined their status as angelic messengers, although having made one exception.

However, messenger "aggelos" is also used in Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:27; Luke 9:52 & James 2:25

Numbers 16:32 fits Peters colorful language regarding the fate of those who would be false messengers in the camp of Israel. Those who await a certain judgement for their actions.

Angels behold the Face of God and as Divine beings do not have the nature to sin (James 1:14)

If divine nature can be tempted with evil your reward is flawed.

Here is the full document that I referenced above in my previous post.



The Greek Root word is "ἄγγελος" and it is translated 47 times as "Angel."

The Greek words that you referenced have been highlighted in blue above and the respective verses that you have referenced in your post in yellow.

2 Peter 2:4 is a reference to an Angel. Matthew 11:10 and Luke 7:27 is an Old Testament reference to John the Baptist who paves the way for Jesus' Ministry and Luke 9:52 refers to Disciples that Jesus sent before Him on the way to Jerusalem to prepare the way for Him, and James 2:25 is a reference to the two spies that Joshua sent to Jericho to spy out the lay of the land before they began to march around it for seven days.

While James 1:14 does not reference Angels at all and so you conclusion with respect to this verse is very suspect.

I would humbly suggest that you need to do more study on 2 Peter 2:4, particularly with respects to the Greek words that you have referenced which are different from one and other such that their meaning is different from the Greek Root word from which they were derived.

Being a teacher of the Scriptures and the meanings contained there in, we must be very careful that we do not bring error with what we teach.

Perhaps the other forum is for you as you have demonstrated that your understanding here in this thread is somewhat suspect.

Shalom

 

[face2face]

Here is the full document that I referenced above in my previous post.

View attachment 19000

The Greek Root word is "ἄγγελος" and it is translated 47 times as "Angel."

Agree - how its translated whether Angel or Messenger is at the discretion of the translators who don't always get it right though we appreciate their efforts.

The Greek words that you referenced have been highlighted in blue above and the respective verses that you have referenced in your post in yellow.

2 Peter 2:4 is a reference to an Angel.

Or a messenger depending on what definition you decide to use.

Matthew 11:10 and Luke 7:27 is an Old Testament reference to John the Baptist who paves the way for Jesus' Ministry and Luke 9:52 refers to Disciples that Jesus sent before Him on the way to Jerusalem to prepare the way for Him, and James 2:25 is a reference to the two spies that Joshua sent to Jericho to spy out the lay of the land before they began to march around it for seven days.

Okay...good you acknowledge Angel can be used of humans...that is a start.

While James 1:14 does not reference Angels at all and so you conclusion with respect to this verse is very suspect.

If you reread my post you will see it was in reference to divine nature not being able to sin...sin comes from flesh and not Spirit. Read James 1:13-15 again for reference. i.e if angels could sin by God's divine law they must die!

I would humbly suggest that you need to do more study on 2 Peter 2:4, particularly with respects to the Greek words that you have referenced which are different from one and other such that their meaning is different from the Greek Root word from which they were derived.

I believe you have already proved ἄγγελος refers to humans (many in fact) so this falls on you to now prove Peter had divine messengers in view when the context is clearly human messengers 2 Peter 2:1.

Being a teacher of the Scriptures and the meanings contained there in, we must be very careful that we do not bring error with what we teach.

Perhaps the other forum is for you as you have demonstrated that your understanding here in this thread is somewhat suspect.

Shalom

Your initial post contained omissions having played down the use of ἄγγελος for human messengers which has now been corrected. It appears John the Baptist and the Disciples are now Angels, hmmm what to think of your "somewhat suspect" claim.

How about you go away and reconsider all of 2 Peter 2 &3 and here is your challenge:

Show us anywhere in chapter 2 where the evil messenger is anything but a human?

Here I will help you with the overall structure:

(1) False human teachers (see 2 Peter 2:15, 2 Peter 2:19; 2 Peter 3:3–4, 2 Peter 2:15–17)
(2) Human denial of authority and judgment (see 2 Peter 2:10–11, 2 Peter 2:20; 2 Peter 3:4-9)
(3) Bad theology leads to bad morals (see 2 Peter 2:13–14, 2 Peter 2:18, 2 Peter 2:20–22)
(4) immediate judgment on humans affirmed (see 2 Peter 2:4–10, 2 Peter 2:12, 2 Peter 2:16, 2 Peter 2:17; 2 Peter 3:5–7, 2 Peter 3:8-10)
(5) ruin of humans affirmed (see 2 Peter 3:7, 2 Peter 3:16)

 

[face2face]

While @Jay Ross is looking into 2 Peter 2&3 I will put down my evidence for Numbers 16 being the reference to 2 Peter 2:4

So if you read Number 16 you will find evidence that the human angels were the 250 princes in the Israelite congregation (see Numbers 16:2) which were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram.

1. They were "aggeloi" (angels) since their office was to "minister" to the congregation. (see Numbers 16:9).
2. Their "first estate" or "principality" (2 Peter 2:4 Jude 1:6) was the "princes" or "leaders" (see Numbers 16:2).
3. They left this "former estate" when they sought the priesthood. (Numbers 16:10).
4. They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. ( see Numbers 16:31-33).
5. They were "sinners" in claiming to themselves the priesthood. ( see Numbers 16:10 & Numbers 16:38).
6. The judgment will be administered by Christ (see 2 Timothy 4:1).
7. Those who opposed Moses in the rebellion of Korah were called the "sons of Levi" ( see Numbers 16:8). In Malachi 2:7 we see the levitical priests were also called "messengers ("aggeloi") of the LORD.

Now if a believer here is able to provide this type of detail to their fallen angel story, I would be more than willing to examine but these above 7 points more than convince me the messengers in 2 Peter 2:4 are Korah, Dathan & Abiram and all those number with them.

 

[ScottA]

Whew, thank you for 1. referencing Israel's example in 2 Peter 2:1 and 2. providing us the warning for our present time and for now not forcing fallen angels on the text. The question remains - who are those God judged as unworthy messengers - locked up in darkness

Numbers 16:32

Any and all under the spirit of antichris.

 

[Taken]

The irony here is I've been trying to get @Taken to deal with 2 Peter 2:4 for over a week and all he could do is speak about everything but 2 Peter 2:4, agree patience is low, hence why I moved to another forum where I am now having constructive dialogue with honest Christians who actually want to deal with the text and not run off to Gen 6 or a ventriloquist serpent.

Your Post #1 was an invitation to DEAL with 2 Peter 2:4.
2 Pet 2:4

Your Comment #1 gave your view that Angels do not SIN.

2 Pet 2:4 IMO doesn’t need to be DEALT with, to decide or challenge Gods decision or What God Chose to DO with the “ungodly”...(angels & mankind).

2 Peter 2:
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

What I chose to deal with, was to DISAGREE with YOUR VIEW, (that angels DO NOT SIN). Not only does 2 Pet 2 expressly reveal some angels DID Sin, I gave other Scripture of angels who Sinned.

You claiming that IS DISHONEST is laughable.

 

[marks]

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

Is your point here to say that angels (celestial beings) cannot sin, and therefore when Peter spoke of messengers being cast into hell, he is talking about people?

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

You've asked, what is the true context, without posting it, so, here,

2 Peter 2:1-12 YLT
1) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
2) and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
3) and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
4) For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
5) and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
6) and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them ;
7) and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
8) for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.
9) The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
10) and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,
11) whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;
12) and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed—in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil—in their destruction shall be destroyed,

What would you say it is about "messengers" that causes them to be "in strength and power being greater"? And greater than what or whom?

Isn't the point of this passage to say that God didn't spare the angels, and He is not going to spare man? Not even the angels - greater in power and strength - dare do what men do!

One other question, what would be the significance of God saying He didn't spare the messengers, and He didn't spare the old world, but only saved Noah and his family? Why make a distinction between "messengers" and "the old world"?

Much love!