Who can speak to the text?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did you know the word for angels "aggelos" is also used of human messengers / agents

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 85.7%
  • No

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • Never thought about it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,509
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where do you get this from?
Scripture and a lot of cross references and Strong's Concordance, original language...
“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”
— Revelation 12:4 (KJV)
So does Satan really have a tail? A tail of a dragon would be able to draw angels unto him...but since this is metaphor it is basically saying Satan drew a following of angels who agreed with him.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Scripture and a lot of cross references and Strong's Concordance, original language...
“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”
— Revelation 12:4 (KJV)
So does Satan really have a tail? A tail of a dragon would be able to draw angels unto him...but since this is metaphor it is basically saying Satan drew a following of angels who agreed with him.

A couple of points worth noting.

Firstly, you have taken me to a highly symbolic section of Scripture with meaning not always expressed in literal terms.

Let me show you what I mean.

In Daniel 7, if we were not told the Lion with wings was Babylon; if this wasn't stated so clearly would you immediately assume a literal creature, or even a supernatural agent of evil who wrecks havoc on the world?

dan7-lion-wings.jpg


Have you assigned notions or meaning to Revelation 12 which may not be there?

Also, it concerns me when someone goes to the end of the Bible to prove their theology.

F2F
 

Attachments

  • upload_2021-12-1_14-35-5.png
    upload_2021-12-1_14-35-5.png
    538 KB · Views: 0

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,034
2,615
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
A couple of points worth noting.

Firstly, you have taken me to a highly symbolic section of Scripture with meaning not always expressed in literal terms.

Let me show you what I mean.

In Daniel 7, if we were not told the Lion with wings was Babylon; if this wasn't stated so clearly would you immediately assume a literal creature, or even a supernatural agent of evil who wrecks havoc on the world?

dan7-lion-wings.jpg


Have you assigned notions or meaning to Revelation 12 which may not be there?

Also, it concerns me when someone goes to the end of the Bible to prove their theology.

F2F

So with all of your wisdom, who do you say are the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are? Who is the little horn beast that is also written about in Daniel 7 - 8.

Let us see your wisdom and understanding by explaining their identity so that we can understand what you believe.

Shalom
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,509
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A couple of points worth noting.

Firstly, you have taken me to a highly symbolic section of Scripture with meaning not always expressed in literal terms.

Let me show you what I mean.

In Daniel 7, if we were not told the Lion with wings was Babylon; if this wasn't stated so clearly would you immediately assume a literal creature, or even a supernatural agent of evil who wrecks havoc on the world?

dan7-lion-wings.jpg


Have you assigned notions or meaning to Revelation 12 which may not be there?

Also, it concerns me when someone goes to the end of the Bible to prove their theology.

F2F
Don't be concerned...Revelation quotes the OT alot...
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So with all of your wisdom, who do you say are the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are? Who is the little horn beast that is also written about in Daniel 7 - 8.

Let us see your wisdom and understanding by explaining their identity so that we can understand what you believe.

Shalom

If you want to start a new thread by all means.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,509
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So those concerns were valid then?
The book of revelation draws more on the Old Testament text than any other book of the Bible. There are thirty-four direct references to the Book of Daniel in the Revelation; 49 to Isaiah; 31 to Ezekiel; 21 to Exodus; 23 to the Psalms; 16 to Jeremiah; 10 to Zechariah (that's 184 direct quotations!). Also referred to are Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Kings, Proverbs, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, Amos, Job, Maccabees, and Micah.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The book of revelation draws more on the Old Testament text than any other book of the Bible. There are thirty-four direct references to the Book of Daniel in the Revelation; 49 to Isaiah; 31 to Ezekiel; 21 to Exodus; 23 to the Psalms; 16 to Jeremiah; 10 to Zechariah (that's 184 direct quotations!). Also referred to are Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Kings, Proverbs, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, Amos, Job, Maccabees, and Micah.

Very true the NT has its roots in OT Scripture but that truth does nothing for why you choose to take me to Revelation 12 to prove your Supernatural Agent of Evil exists.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,509
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Very true the NT has its roots in OT Scripture but that truth does nothing for why you choose to take me to Revelation 12 to prove your Supernatural Agent of Evil exists.
I don't know where you got supernatural agent of evil...it isn't anything I said...so just to clarify you have interjected a completely unrelated topic into what the OP is about.
And it is not a direct quote from anything I have shared.
This is a twist and turn taking what I shared and rewriting it to fit your narrative.
This is what the fake media does all the time and having said that I won't participate any more in this discussion.
I was enjoying it until now.
Outta here!
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I don't know where you got supernatural agent of evil...it isn't anything I said...so just to clarify you have interjected a completely unrelated topic into what the OP is about.
And it is not a direct quote from anything I have shared.
This is a twist and turn taking what I shared and rewriting it to fit your narrative.
This is what the fake media does all the time and having said that I won't participate any more in this discussion.
I was enjoying it until now.
Outta here!

Okay.

So does Satan really have a tail? A tail of a dragon would be able to draw angels unto him...but since this is metaphor it is basically saying Satan drew a following of angels who agreed with him.

You said the above yeah? who is Satan then? And whats with the tail drawing angels to him comment mean?

Maybe its another case in point, where you have been taught certain things which are not quite right, or you have run out of Scripture to support your belief?

:) Good talking though
 
Last edited:

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,574
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The question I have, is why does 2 Peter 2:4 have to be referring to "false prophets" or OT incidents in Israel's history? Could it also be referring to fallen wicked angels, who Isaiah wrote about in chapter 24, in verses 21-22, who would be judged in heaven and gather together with the Kings of the earth, and together they would be imprisoned in a pit for many days to await the time of their future punishment.

As to OT stories where they are depicted in the narrative, one example could be the reference to the "four winds of heaven" mentioned in Jer 49:36, Ez 37:9, Dan 7:2, Dan 8:8, and Zech 2:10 in the Old Testament and also in Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27 and Rev 7:1.

However, rather than put down members answering your hypothetical question, would it not have been better to have provided a more detailed overview as to the point that you were wanting to make?

Perhaps Paul provided the best example for what you are asking when he wrote:

Ephesians 6:10-13: –– 10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.​


Shalom
It is referring to Genesis 6:2 and the angels, that left their first estate and had sex with women, and produced giants over 9 feet tall, such as Goliath.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
It is referring to Genesis 6:2 and the angels, that left their first estate and had sex with women, and produced giants over 9 feet tall, such as Goliath.

Not, but do read the 5 pages of posts to discover why the high activity here over the past few days. Post #17 currently stands as one more plausible interpretation of 2 Peter 2:4. Angels can't sin or fall but humans sure do!
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
7,034
2,615
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
If you want to start a new thread by all means.

You took the thread in the direction of the book of Daniel, and if you are as knowledgeable as you claim you are, with respect to 2 Peter 2:4, then show us that the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are not wicked fallen heavenly hosts, which I believe Peter was referencing in 2 Peter 2:4.

You need to be able to convince me with your width of understanding and knowledge that the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are human entities and not heavenly entities like angels.

The ball really is in your court to prove not mine. You are the one making outlandish claims contrary to what the verse in question is actually stating. You are jumping through hoops that simply do not add up.

Shalom
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Who is willing to deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4

Traditional Christians state angels can sin but the Scriptural evidence is far from convincing.

So what is the true context of 2 Peter 2:4?

2 Peter 2:4 is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you! . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point. The word for angels here is used for those false messengers with whom God judged. The question is what incident in Israels history could it be alluding to?
I thought this was important to know, although many already do.
2 Peter 2:1-4
2:1 At the close of chapter 1 Peter referred to the prophets of the OT as men who spoke, not by their own will, but as moved by the Holy Spirit. Now he mentions that in addition to the true prophets in the OT period, there were also false prophets. And just as there will be bona fide teachers in the Christian era, there will be false teachers as well.

These false teachers take their place inside the church. They pose as ministers of the gospel. This is what makes the peril so great. If they came right out and said they were atheists or agnostics, people would be on guard. But they are masters of deception. They carry the Bible and use orthodox expressions —though using them to mean something entirely different. The president of a liberal theological seminary acknowledged the strategy as follows:

Churches often change convictions without formally renouncing views to which they were previously committed, and their theologians usually find ways of preserving continuity with the past through re-interpretations.

W. A. Criswell describes the false teacher as follows:
... a suave, affable, personable, scholarly man who claims to be the friend of Christ. He preaches in the pulpit, he writes learned books, he publishes articles in the religious magazines. He attacks Christianity from within. He makes the church and the school a lodging place for every unclean and hateful bird. He leavens the meal with the doctrine of the Sadducees.

Where are these false teachers found? To mention perhaps the most obvious places, they are found in:
Liberal and Neo-Orthodox Protestantism
Liberal Roman Catholicism
Unitarianism and Universalism
Russellism (Jehovah's Witnesses)
Mormonism
Christian Science
Unity School of Christianity
Christadelphianism
Armstrongism (The “Radio Church of God”)

While professing to be ministers of righteousness, they secretly bring in soul-destroying heresies alongside true Bible doctrine. It is a deliberately deceptive mixture of the false and the true. Primarily, they peddle a system of denials. Here are some of the denials which can be found among certain of the groups listed above:

They deny the verbal, plenary inspiration of the Bible, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, and His death as a Substitute for sinners. They are especially vehement in their denial of the value of His shed blood. They deny His bodily resurrection, eternal punishment, salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the reality of miracles in the Bible.

Other false teachings common today are:
The Kenosis theory—the heresy that Christ emptied Himself of the attributes of deity. This means that He could sin, make mistakes, etc.

The “God is dead” fantasy, evolution, universal salvation, purgatory, prayers for the dead, etc.

The ultimate sin of false teachers is that they even deny the Master who bought them. While they may say nice things about Jesus, refer to His “divinity,” His lofty ethics, His superb example, they fail to confess Him as God and as unique Savior.

Nels Ferré wrote, “Jesus never was or became God. ... To call Jesus God is to substitute an idol for Incarnation.”

Methodist Bishop Gerald Kennedy agreed:
I am frank to confess that the statement (that Christ is God) does not please me and it seems far from satisfactory. I would much prefer to have it say that God was in Christ, for I believe that the testimony of the New Testament taken as a whole is against the doctrine of the deity of Jesus, although I think it bears overwhelming witness to the divinity of Jesus.

In this and in many other ways, false teachers deny the Lord who bought them. Here we should pause to remind ourselves that while these false teachers to whom Peter refers had been bought by the Lord, they had never been redeemed. The NT distinguishes between purchase and redemption. All are purchased but not all are redeemed. Redemption applies only to those who receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, availing themselves of the value of His shed blood (1Pe_1:18-19).

In Mat_13:44 the Lord Jesus is pictured as a man who sold all He had to buy a field. In verse 38 of that same chapter, the field is distinctly said to be the world. So by His death on the cross, the Lord bought the world and all who are in it. But He did not redeem the whole world. While His work was sufficient for the redemption of all mankind, it is only effective for those who repent, believe, and accept Him.

The fact that these false teachers were never truly born again is indicated by their destiny. They bring on themselves swift destruction. Their doom is eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

2:2 Peter predicts that they will attract a large following. They do this by scuttling the biblical standards of morality and encouraging the indulgence of the flesh. Here are two examples:
Anglican Bishop John A. T. Robinson wrote:
... nothing can of itself always be labeled as “wrong.” One cannot, for instance, start from the position “sex relations before marriage” or “divorce” are wrong or sinful in themselves. They may be in 99 cases or even 100 cases out of 100, but they are not intrinsically so, for the only intrinsic evil is lack of love.

In the book Called to Responsible Freedom, published by the National Council of Churches, young people are counseled:
In the personal, individual sense, then, what justifies and sanctifies sexuality is not the external marital status of the people before the law but rather what they feel toward each other in their hearts. Measured in such a way, holding hands can be very wrong indeed while intimate sex-play can be right and good.
As a result of this type of behavior, taught and practiced by false teachers, the way of truth is maligned. Unbelievers develop a deep contempt for Christianity.

2:3 These false teachers are greedy, both in the sexual and financial realms. They have chosen the ministry as a lucrative profession. Their great aim is to build up a large following and thus to increase their income.

They exploit people with false words. Darby said, “The devil is never more satanic than when he carries a Bible.” So these men, with Bible in hand, pose as ministers of righteousness, give out well-known evangelical hymns, and use scriptural expressions. But all this is camouflage for heretical teachings and corrupt morals.

An awful condemnation awaits these religious fifth-columnists. Their judgment has not been idle; it has been arming itself for the slaughter. Their destruction has not been nodding its head in sleep; it has been wide awake, ready to pounce like a panther.

2:4 In verses 4-10, we have three OT examples of God's judgment on apostasy—the angels, the antediluvians, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

We assume that the angels who sinned are those also mentioned in Jud_1:6. There we learn that: (1) They did not keep their position. (2) They left their proper dwelling. Though we cannot be certain, there is strong reason to believe that these are the same as “the sons of God” mentioned in Gen_6:2 : “The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.” Angels are called sons of God in Job_1:6; Job_2:1. The inference in Genesis 6 is that these sons of God left the angelic position assigned to them, exchanged their dwelling in heaven for one on earth, and intermarried with human wives. The children born to them were nephilim, which means “fallen ones” (Gen_6:4). It seems clear from Gen_6:3 that God was extremely displeased with these abnormal sexual unions.

Against this view it is generally argued that angels are sexless and therefore cannot marry. But the Bible does not say this. All it says is that in heaven they do not marry (Mar_12:25). Angels often appeared in human form in the OT. For example, the two angels whom Lot entertained in Sodom (Gen_19:1) are described as men in verses 5, 10, 12. They had feet (v. 2) and hands (v. 10); they could eat (v. 3); they had physical strength (vv. 10, 16). It is obvious from the perverted desires of the men of Sodom that these angels had bodies that were capable of sexual abuse (v. 5).

God was outraged by this gross apostasy of the angels from His established order. Their doom was to be thrown down to hell, committed to pits of utter gloom until the final judgment. (Believers Bible)
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You took the thread in the direction of the book of Daniel,
Correct ...in relation to Rev 12 and some supernatural being stealing angels - on topic though!

and if you are as knowledgeable as you claim you are, with respect to 2 Peter 2:4, then show us that the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are not wicked fallen heavenly hosts, which I believe Peter was referencing in 2 Peter 2:4.
The Scripture is making the claims which at present are suggesting your belief in sinning angels is extremely weak. Come to think of it, I dont recall you presenting any proof to an alternate context to that presented in Post #17.
You need to be able to convince me with your width of understanding and knowledge that the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are human entities and not heavenly entities like angels.
If you are so convinced in your fallen angel teachings from Daniel 7 go for your life, but we are a long way from finishing 2 Peter 2 & Jude. Stick around and afterwards we can look at Daniel 7.

The ball really is in your court to prove not mine.

Shalom
You introduced the need to look at Daniel 7? We can go back and grab the post if you like?

You are the one making outlandish claims contrary to what the verse in question is actually stating. You are jumping through hoops that simply do not add up.

Nothing outlandish here but some good old fashioned careful reading of the Word. As stated, happy to see your thoughts on Daniel 7 post this thread. As you can see juggling a few posts here.

F2F.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I thought this was important to know, although many already do.

We assume that the angels who sinned are those also mentioned in Jud_1:6.

Correct its generally accepted to be the same account.

There we learn that: (1) They did not keep their position. (2) They left their proper dwelling. Though we cannot be certain, there is strong reason to believe that these are the same as “the sons of God” mentioned in Gen_6:2 : “The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.”

It's pleasing to see the lack of conviction for this interpretation. At some point I will need to deal with Genesis 6 but that is an unrelated to 2 Peter 2:4 though Peter does reference it in 2 Peter he does so in relation to Noah and his family.

Against this view it is generally argued that angels are sexless and therefore cannot marry. But the Bible does not say this. All it says is that in heaven they do not marry (Mark 12:25). Angels often appeared in human form in the OT. For example, the two angels whom Lot entertained in Sodom (Gen_19:1) are described as men in verses 5, 10, 12. They had feet (v. 2) and hands (v. 10); they could eat (v. 3); they had physical strength (vv. 10, 16). It is obvious from the perverted desires of the men of Sodom that these angels had bodies that were capable of sexual abuse (v. 5).

God was outraged by this gross apostasy of the angels from His established order. Their doom was to be thrown down to hell, committed to pits of utter gloom until the final judgment. (Believers Bible)

I don't see any strong Scriptural arguments above. In relation to Angels procreating that is only every attributed to flesh and blood creatures and nowhere in the Bible is it taught that divine beings can sin, have sexual relations or have any of the physical needs humans have. It's true angels appear in human form, which also works well with Genesis 1:26. Your last point is mute really as the Angels could never come to any harm, whether they had bodies biologically similar to ours or not.

Post #17 for me still deals with all the aspects of 2 Peter 2:4 and ties in better with Noah & Sodom accounts. Of course all three are manifestations of God Justice and ultimate judgements over false teachers / messengers. You would have to consider the fallen angel theology just doesn't fit in Peters record - if it were true its out of place and out of context.

I didn't deal with the middle section of your post as it appeared to opinion based.

Anyway thanks for posting.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,755
13,081
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@Cooper ~

You bring up some interesting points.

I see a difference between, A false teacher, and A teacher trying to use analogies of common language (with multiple meanings), to teach a spiritual understanding.

A false teacher, Flat out, IS Against God, and Advocates and Perpetrates by any means, to effect an End Result of Convincing another to ALSO Be Against God.

“Kenosis Theory” - “emptied Himself”... poorly chosen words.
“Jesus” - “IS human”...poorly chosen words.

OSAS - Offered to Adam, but had not Yet Understanding.
( Adam was offered FOOD. Adam was ALSO offered to Eat from the Tree of Life, even to the Time, God was covering his Flesh Sin, preparing Adam to be escorted OUT of the Garden.)

Gen 2:
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 2:
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

OSAS - I disagree IS false teaching.
It is Expressly a man Having Accepted the Lord Gods Offering, By Freely putting Forth, By his Heartful Word, Acceptance of Gods Tree of Life, to eat and live for ever.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Cooper

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2020
2,776
866
113
Sheffield, Yorkshire, home of Robin Hood.
robinhood-loxley.weebly.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Correct its generally accepted to be the same account.



It's pleasing to see the lack of conviction for this interpretation. At some point I will need to deal with Genesis 6 but that is an unrelated to 2 Peter 2:4 though Peter does reference it in 2 Peter he does so in relation to Noah and his family.



I don't see any strong Scriptural arguments above. In relation to Angels procreating that is only every attributed to flesh and blood creatures and nowhere in the Bible is it taught that divine beings can sin, have sexual relations or have any of the physical needs humans have. It's true angels appear in human form, which also works well with Genesis 1:26. Your last point is mute really as the Angels could never come to any harm, whether they had bodies biologically similar to ours or not.

Post #17 for me still deals with all the aspects of 2 Peter 2:4 and ties in better with Noah & Sodom accounts. Of course all three are manifestations of God Justice and ultimate judgements over false teachers / messengers. You would have to consider the fallen angel theology just doesn't fit in Peters record - if it were true its out of place and out of context.

I didn't deal with the middle section of your post as it appeared to opinion based.

Anyway thanks for posting.
Just to say that human angels (messengers) can sin, and isn't Satan a fallen heavenly angel?
.
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
5,065
674
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Just to say that human angels (messengers) can sin, and isn't Satan a fallen heavenly angel?
.

Cooper, if you were to take me to a passage in Scripture that taught the traditional view of Satan, being a fallen angel, where in the OT would you take me?

If the OT was allusive where in the NT would the story of this fallen angel be found along with God's warning of it?

What would you say is the most convincing Scriptural account?