HERESY?

[Grailhunter]

You didn't answer this question: "If your first sexual intercourse is marriage, then are all future relationships are adultery?"

Do you believe in remarriage?

And it is a huge assumption that I have read all your posts... Having to repeat yourself is the nature of forums.

LOL All of that and I did not answer your question. I am sorry, I was trying to shorten the answer. I am a walking speech and I can go on and on. So here ya go it is long.

In the Old Testament and with the Jews it was different.
For Christians it is a matter of morality. And we can discuss that.
When you have sex with someone you are married and if you have sex with someone else it is adultery. Part of the reason that it is important to know that is that people go carousing around thinking they are getting away with something and they are not. The word fornication and its modern definition does not appear in the Bible but, the Greek word that they replaced with fornication...at its root means sex with prostitutes...temple prostitutes. And the variances of the root meant illicit sex and sexual misconduct....I am going to give a few examples here of different translations of
Galatians 5:21
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. NIV

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. KJV

envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. NASB

Then 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Then Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So sexual misconduct is defined in the New Testament with serious consequences. But the seriousness of this can be misunderstood if you do not understand the significance of having sex. That significance can actually be down played by the word fornication being plastered all through the scriptures. A single person having casual with multiple partners .... does it occur to them that they are going to hell....well the scriptures say it is a possibility.

The fact that having sex forms a marriage, does not lower the bar of sexual conduct....it raises it. These Greek words that have been lumped into the word fornication and inserted into the Bible, these Greek words had specific meanings and defined different types of sexual misconduct....sexual sins. Fornication was a Latin word that pointed directly at prostitutes but the modern definition came to mean mostly two unmarried people having sex. Well then you lose a lot of the meaning in the scriptures because the Greek words address various types of sexual misconduct. And it makes no sense because that was how people formed a marriage. So it was not a sin for two people to have sex to form a marriage.

Two people falling in love and having sex.
The whole concept from start to finish was designed by God....the devil was not even consulted. Two people find each other attractive....they spend time together and become very fond of each other....they fall in love and they desire to make love....to have and to hold....to kiss, caress, and make love. And when they join they are married. God designed the emotions and the desires that drives that. No sin occurs in the natural progression of things.

If God did not make those desires, women would go shopping and men would gather and watch football and no families would form. It is when we do not respect ourselves and do not respect others is where sin occurs.

Now divorce and remarriage. One of the difficulties with this is that the NT does not take a lot of time with romantic relationships....Saving souls is the priority....no focus on the family. Christ was returning soon and the recommendation.....do not get married because things are going to go bad. Paul give up marriage as a concession. Better to marry than to burn.

So what do we have? Well the conversation that Christ (a Jew) had with other Jews, was specifically about the Mosaic Law. So there is not a lot that we can glean from that conversation for Christians...the circumstances are different and the consequences are different. The letter of divorcement is from the Mosaic Law and Christians did not adopt that practice and the word divorce does not appear outside the four Gospels. We do not know how many wives these Jews had. And a divorced Jewish woman in that era was more or less a death sentence.... very cruel.

Now Paul addresses marriage, couples separating...departing...leaving, in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 verses 10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Romans 7:2-3 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

There is no mention of the husband remaining unmarried and the answer to that you are not going to like.
There is no consideration for an abused wife or children here. And you are not going to like that answer either. Some point to the discussion that Christ had with the Jews that said the husband could not remarry if he divorced his wife.....but the guy could have had six wives and even at that the Apostles nearly revolted. Keep in mind that the Jews practiced polygamy for another 1000 years after Christ.

So the Bible does not give women an out. So to answer your question....from the fundamentalist stand point, remarriage for women is specifically addressed, and it is a sin to remarry. Does that apply to men....it is a matter of opinion.

Some women have died with their children trying to save a marriage. Some live with abuse some show up on the 5 O'clock news. Should a divorced woman live without love or a father figure for her children? In the NT they were thinking that Christ could show up any day now, so the expected time was short, not a life time. So none of that was taken into consideration.

Now my personal opinion....I am not a fundamentalist....bible only. I believe the Holy Ghost over 2000 years has taught us many things. So you have to take my opinion for what it is worth. I believe marriage is for people that are in love. I believe it is worth the effort to work it out and get counselling if needed. But marriage is not for the abused....I know for a fact that people can love one another and not be able to live together. Married people that act like they hate each other are not doing the children any favors.

In our era where divorce is a process I say do not wait until your children have to dodge the bullets. Get a divorce and work on good terms so the children do not suffer. If you meet someone and fall in love have a wedding. Good luck.

But as you can see, my advise is not biblical, I do not pretend that it is. I believe we have learned a better way....LOL...as long as you respect marriage and do your best. Whether it be intellectually or heartfelt I believe it is better to part on good terms so an extended family can function for the children.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The ECF's were not taught by the Apostles.

Very obviously.....

The men that were taught by the Apostles are commonly called in theological circles as the "Apostolic Fathers". They would be Clement of Rome, Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch.

Judas was taught by Jesus Christ...did that make him a reliable source of truth?
Did the ECF's stick to the teachings of the Christ?

The apostle Paul wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4. Catholic Jerusalem Bible.)

Evidence within the Bible itself shows that apostasy already was at work before the death of Christ’s apostles. (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7; 1 John 2:18-19; Jude 3,4,16,19) Apostates from within the Christian congregation rose up as false teachers. Instead of following Bible truth, these ungodly men turned to “myths.” They carried off many Christians as their prey “through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men.” (Colossians 2:8)

How did that happen? Historian and Oxford University Professor J. N. D. Kelly explains:
“During the first three centuries of its existence, the Christian Church had first to emerge from the [monotheistic] Jewish environment that had cradled it and then come to terms with the predominantly Hellenistic (Greek) culture surrounding it.” Then, speaking of those who later became known as the early church fathers, Professor Kelly continues: “Most of them exploited current philosophical conceptions. . . . They have been accused of Hellenizing Christianity (making it Greek in form and method), but they were in fact attempting to formulate it in intellectual categories congenial [suited] to their age. In a real sense they were the first Christian theologians.” So, these early “theologians” set about adapting primitive Bible-based Christianity to the current philosophical ideas of the day.

The ECF's would be Justin Martyr, Ireneus, Clement of Alexandria (not a complete list). They were not taught by the Apostles but probably taught by men who were taught by the Apostles (or a close proximity thereof).

The further away you get from Jesus and the Apostles, the more you see the adoption of man-made traditions and the twisting of scripture to accommodate false teachings, which was Judaism's undoing. The further away they got from Moses' teachings, the more they adopted false ideas and twisted scripture. History repeats because humans always fall for the devil's deceptions. His tricks are old, but they still work. He knows how to play human beings like a fiddle.

Jesus said to look at their "fruits"....what kind of worshippers they produce. Do they produce obedient, well informed thinkers....or ignorant ritualistic performers?

The reason I am so passionate about getting this right is that when I started reading the Apostolic Fathers they brought out of my Protestant confusion and into The Church. Plus, I love Christian history.

Is it actually "Christian history" that you love, or "church history"? The two are not the same...by a long shot.

Since Jesus foretold that Christianity would be corrupted, who do we look to for confirmation that they became most unchristian in their beliefs and practices? Who was the only "Christian" church for 1500 years, completely drunk with its own power over the kings of the earth? With innocent blood dripping from its royal skirts, it literally got away with murder.

Anyone who knows "church history" should be appalled. The Spanish Inquisition was enough to see plain as day that these were not Christ's followers.....
The worst that a person could suffer for opposing the original church's teachings, was excommunication....being removed from the church.....never was there death or torture. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

 

[JohnPaul]

Lol....hold on. You believe that @Aunty Jane is a messenger of God's word and Jane never defiles it "through wrong interpretations."? Is that what you are saying John Paul????

Sooooo does that mean you and Jane agree on EVERY interpretation???

Curious Mary

Yes Proud Mary, keep on burning.

Aunty Jane doesn’t interpret but speaks the truth from the word of God, the Bible, unadulterated.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1 John 5: 18 states a child of god does not live in sin (sin continuously)

it does not say they NEVER sin.

And yes. Paul was a christian just like the rest of us.



Rom 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, (present tense) sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. (all present tense) 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. (present tense) 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells (present tense); for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. (present tense) 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. (present tense). 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (present tense) . 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (present tense) Paul is saying, this is what i DO RIGHT NOW. not WHAT I DID BACK THEN.



Before you go mocking me, you need to learn how to read. and you need to fit context to the passage not to what you want it to be



Yes we do have a new nature, but we also have the old nature which is still at war in our bodies. This is what paul spoke of

You want to deny your sin, and think you are more righteous than you really are.. YOU will pay dearly

Again, you are not reading in context. Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 are about the LAW, the Ten Commandments, the Old Covenant. Chapters 6 and 8 are about the New Covenant of the Spirit, and Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, and in Him there is no sin. It doesn't mean that you'll sin once in a while like you claim. It means He cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. By adding words to the Scriptures like "living in" or "practicing" you delete the magnitude of the power of Jesus' blood.

 

[Wrangler]

Judas was taught by Jesus Christ...did that make him a reliable source of truth?
Did the ECF's stick to the teachings of the Christ?

The apostle Paul wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4. Catholic Jerusalem Bible.)

I look forward to Marymog's erudite response to this brilliant post.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, you are not reading in context. Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 are about the LAW, the Ten Commandments, the Old Covenant. Chapters 6 and 8 are about the New Covenant of the Spirit, and Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY OUR SIN, and in Him there is no sin. It doesn't mean that you'll sin once in a while like you claim. It means He cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. By adding words to the Scriptures like "living in" or "practicing" you delete the magnitude of the power of Jesus' blood.

Well thanks for your opinion.

But I can not agree with your interpretation of Romans 7, I must take paul literally.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

LOL All of that and I did not answer your question. I am sorry, I was trying to shorten the answer. I am a walking speech and I can go on and on. So here ya go it is long.

In the Old Testament and with the Jews it was different.
For Christians it is a matter of morality. And we can discuss that.
When you have sex with someone you are married and if you have sex with someone else it is adultery. Part of the reason that it is important to know that is that people go carousing around thinking they are getting away with something and they are not. The word fornication and its modern definition does not appear in the Bible but, the Greek word that they replaced with fornication...at its root means sex with prostitutes...temple prostitutes. And the variances of the root meant illicit sex and sexual misconduct....I am going to give a few examples here of different translations of
Galatians 5:21
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. NIV

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. KJV

envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. NASB

Then 1st Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Then Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

So sexual misconduct is defined in the New Testament with serious consequences. But the seriousness of this can be misunderstood if you do not understand the significance of having sex. That significance can actually be down played by the word fornication being plastered all through the scriptures. A single person having casual with multiple partners .... does it occur to them that they are going to hell....well the scriptures say it is a possibility.

The fact that having sex forms a marriage, does not lower the bar of sexual conduct....it raises it. These Greek words that have been lumped into the word fornication and inserted into the Bible, these Greek words had specific meanings and defined different types of sexual misconduct....sexual sins. Fornication was a Latin word that pointed directly at prostitutes but the modern definition came to mean mostly two unmarried people having sex. Well then you lose a lot of the meaning in the scriptures because the Greek words address various types of sexual misconduct. And it makes no sense because that was how people formed a marriage. So it was not a sin for two people to have sex to form a marriage.

Two people falling in love and having sex.
The whole concept from start to finish was designed by God....the devil was not even consulted. Two people find each other attractive....they spend time together and become very fond of each other....they fall in love and they desire to make love....to have and to hold....to kiss, caress, and make love. And when they join they are married. God designed the emotions and the desires that drives that. No sin occurs in the natural progression of things.

If God did not make those desires, women would go shopping and men would gather and watch football and no families would form. It is when we do not respect ourselves and do not respect others is where sin occurs.

Now divorce and remarriage. One of the difficulties with this is that the NT does not take a lot of time with romantic relationships....Saving souls is the priority....no focus on the family. Christ was returning soon and the recommendation.....do not get married because things are going to go bad. Paul give up marriage as a concession. Better to marry than to burn.

So what do we have? Well the conversation that Christ (a Jew) had with other Jews, was specifically about the Mosaic Law. So there is not a lot that we can glean from that conversation for Christians...the circumstances are different and the consequences are different. The letter of divorcement is from the Mosaic Law and Christians did not adopt that practice and the word divorce does not appear outside the four Gospels. We do not know how many wives these Jews had. And a divorced Jewish woman in that era was more or less a death sentence.... very cruel.

Now Paul addresses marriage, couples separating...departing...leaving, in 1st Corinthians chapter 7 verses 10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

Romans 7:2-3 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

There is no mention of the husband remaining unmarried and the answer to that you are not going to like.
There is no consideration for an abused wife or children here. And you are not going to like that answer either. Some point to the discussion that Christ had with the Jews that said the husband could not remarry if he divorced his wife.....but the guy could have had six wives and even at that the Apostles nearly revolted. Keep in mind that the Jews practiced polygamy for another 1000 years after Christ.

So the Bible does not give women an out. So to answer your question....from the fundamentalist stand point, remarriage for women is specifically addressed, and it is a sin to remarry. Does that apply to men....it is a matter of opinion.

Some women have died with their children trying to save a marriage. Some live with abuse some show up on the 5 O'clock news. Should a divorced woman live without love or a father figure for her children? In the NT they were thinking that Christ could show up any day now, so the expected time was short, not a life time. So none of that was taken into consideration.

Now my personal opinion....I am not a fundamentalist....bible only. I believe the Holy Ghost over 2000 years has taught us many things. So you have to take my opinion for what it is worth. I believe marriage is for people that are in love. I believe it is worth the effort to work it out and get counselling if needed. But marriage is not for the abused....I know for a fact that people can love one another and not be able to live together. Married people that act like they hate each other are not doing the children any favors.

In our era where divorce is a process I say do not wait until your children have to dodge the bullets. Get a divorce and work on good terms so the children do not suffer. If you meet someone and fall in love have a wedding. Good luck.

But as you can see, my advise is not biblical, I do not pretend that it is. I believe we have learned a better way....LOL...as long as you respect marriage and do your best. Whether it be intellectually or heartfelt I believe it is better to part on good terms so an extended family can function for the children.

I understand. Paul spoke different rules for women than for men. For a man if a pagan wife left, he was no longer bound to her, but a wife is bound until her husband dies. And I also knew that fornication was with temple prostitutes, and idolatry. Are you surprised? My husband fell in love with the wife of his best friend and caused two divorces. Though I'm "divorced" my husband had no cause to divorce me so I'm still married and wear my rings. He is still the last man I kissed in 2001.

So what you are saying in answer to my question is that a man can have as many relationships as he wants as long as he loves her. No one-night stands. In the Old Testament a man could rape a girl, but then had to marry her, and could not divorce her ever.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Well thanks for your opinion.

But I can not agree with your interpretation of Romans 7, I must take paul literally.

So do I, but understand what he meant. Part is about the Old Covenant Ten Commandments like what you chose, and part is about why the New Covenant is better. It frees us from sin.

Romans 7
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

2 Cor. 3:6-11
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So do I, but understand what he meant.

Romans 7
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

2 Cor. 3:6-11
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

You do not understand him at all

He suffers what we all suffer. Every believer I have ever known suffered with the same thing.

Those who admit it usually are those who grow u=into strong mature believers.

Those who do not. Grow into self righteous stagnant people who think they are more righteous than they are

Just my observation

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You do not understand him at all

He suffers what we all suffer. Every believer I have ever known suffered with the same thing.

Those who admit it usually are those who grow u=into strong mature believers.

Those who do not. Grow into self righteous stagnant people who think they are more righteous than they are

Just my observation

I edited and highlighted some areas. But I don't think you read it at all. It is not that hard to understand.

 

[amigo de christo]

So you believe a person can be saved with no faith.

ok. I got it

Judas followed jesus because like many jews he thought Jesus was going to take over the throne and kick out the romans. Sadly. Like many of the jews. Once they found out Jesus came not to do that. but to convict them of their sin and show them their need for a savior. of which he came to be. He proved where his true faith lied. and ended up turning like many did (see John 6) because as jesus said. They did not believe.

He also called Judas the son of perdition. As Jesus said, whoever the father gives he will by no means cast out.

You want Jesus to go against his word. Then let him

My faith is in Gods promise and his gift.

Not in my ability

Its not in anyones ability . ONLY FAITH IN THE GLORIOUS LORD JESUS WILL EVER SAVE A SOUL .
JESUS said it first . WHO so ever believes in me shall be saved , but whoever BELIEVES NOT shall be damned .
THERE simply is no other gospel , no other false love , no other hope that is gonna save a soul .
I repeat , ONLY FAITH IN JESUS can save one . CONFESS HIM BY MOUTH and BELIEVE from the heart that GOD has rose Him
from the dead and YE shall be saved. ROME cannot save us , nor can any other religoin or faith . ONLY FAITH IN JESUS CAN SAVE .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I edited and highlighted some areas. But I don't think you read it at all. It is not that hard to understand.

I read it all before. I still do not agree with it. Sorry

You do not understand what paul went through. I experience it all the time. As does every christian I know.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I read it all before. I still do not agree with it. Sorry

You do not understand what paul went through. I experience it all the time. As does every christian I know.

I did for the first 30 years of my life, but then I experienced what Paul did when he was born again and filled with the Spirit, and WAS FREED FROM SIN AND DEATH, and the desire to sin was gone. Like myself, many go to church and read the Bible, but don't understand it because they have yet to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I read it all before. I still do not agree with it. Sorry

You do not understand what paul went through. I experience it all the time. As does every christian I know.

The person in Romans 7:14-23 is UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. We are NOT under that law, but the SPIRIT. Read Romans 8:9

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did for the first 30 years of my life, but then I experienced what Paul did when he was born again and filled with the Spirit, and the desire to sin was gone. Like myself, many go to church and read the Bible, but don't understand it because they have yet to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

If you think you do not sin anymore. Then I guess not much I can do to help you..

Only God can

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The person in Romans 7:14-23 is UNDER THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. We are NOT under that law, but the SPIRIT. Read Romans 8:9

Paul was not under the ten commands

HE SAID I DO

Your ignoring what paul said. And trying to make him talk past tense.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Paul was not under the ten commands

HE SAID I DO

Your ignoring what paul said. And trying to make him talk past tense.

He was either under the law or freed from the law Romans 8:2. Focusing on the past and present tense is from a western mind. Paul and John are Jewish. That is an eastern mindset, and their teaching methods are different from yours and mine. But learn the eastern mindset, and the Scriptures come alive and you can then understand and then focus on the context. You are avoiding the context altogether.

Go back and read those scriptures and what I highlighted slowly and with an open mind. Don't be sidetracked by the present tense.

The reason why we are not under the law is because of sin in our flesh. That sin is why Jesus came - to cure the problem. The problem wasn't the law, it was SIN. Jesus killed the sin in our flesh, making us free.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If you want to keep justifying your sin and your struggle, do you have any idea where you will end up? PLEASE ask God to fill you with His Holy Spirit because there is no way you can be righteous enough for heaven on your own.

 

[Grailhunter]

So what you are saying in answer to my question is that a man can have as many relationships as he wants as long as he loves her.

Biblically to be honest and accurate it is open ended. But the answer in none to comforting. The Apostles were Jews and old habits like old beliefs die hard. Paul once said that women are saved through childbearing and widows should be helped if they wash the feet of the saints....this is serious Judaism. And ended up responding to the question, Is it better not to touch a woman?....signs of the times. If we stayed true to Paul's teachings, as he said, I wish that all of you were as I am...talking of celibacy and if we did Christianity would probably not have survived. He was not concerned about Christianity dyeing out because he believed Christ would return in his lifetime.

In the New Testament era women were still being treated like property. Prearranged marriages and bride price and women did not always have a say as to who they married. The church did not develop rules on consensual marriages until the Middle Ages. Polygamy was still being practiced and we can only assume it was only the Jews that were converting to Christianity. But Paul had to make the distinction that if you wanted to be a leader in the church you had to be a husband of one wife. So inline with Jewish thinking if a wife walked away from a marriage, it was automatically determined that she had committed adultery.

Women were suppose to conduct themselves in a manner that they protected the property aspect of their existence. Ever heard of the phrase "damaged goods" One of the reasons in the Old Testament that a woman was executed for not screaming when she was raped, even if it meant that her throat would have been cut. She obviously had done something that put herself alone and allowed that to happen. Even up to the Middle Ages there was something called "chambering" a woman. If a woman was caught in a room with a man and the door was closed or locked, it was automatically assumed she was having sex. That could be fatal. Now we know why our mom and dad made us keep our bedroom door open when we had someone visiting of the opposite sex. LOL

 

[Aunty Jane]

I understand. Paul spoke different rules for women than for men. For a man if a pagan wife left, he was no longer bound to her, but a wife is bound until her husband dies. And I also knew that fornication was with temple prostitutes, and idolatry. Are you surprised? My husband fell in love with the wife of his best friend and caused two divorces. Though I'm "divorced" my husband had no cause to divorce me so I'm still married and wear my rings. He is still the last man I kissed in 2001.

I am so sorry to heart that he did that to you, but Jesus did not carry any gender issues over to the new covenant. There is not one rule for men and another for women. If you were the innocent mate and he has become "one flesh" with another woman, you are free of him. Your divorce was not only legal but scriptural. Why would God prevent you from finding happiness by being shackled to an adulterer? What applies to an innocent husband, applies also to an innocent wife. The innocent mate did not cause the divorce, but are the victims of someone's unfaithfulness. God hates those who cause pain to their mates this way. (Malachi 2:13-14)

So what you are saying in answer to my question is that a man can have as many relationships as he wants as long as he loves her. No one-night stands. In the Old Testament a man could rape a girl, but then had to marry her, and could not divorce her ever.

The OT rules applied so that marriage would remain an important commitment. A man who had relations with a woman but whom he had no intentions to marry, would have to think twice about not being able to divorce her all the days of his life.

A man who was not married was not permitted to have sexual relations with a woman until after their wedding.
The Greek word "porneia" means all forms of sexual immorality.....Jesus said that even looking inappropriately at another woman, could cause a man to "commit adultery with her in his heart"..... so if all that is missing is opportunity, the deed is as good as done from God's standpoint.

Your husband dealt treacherously with you, and God collected your tears in his skin bottle. (Psalm 56:8)
You are free.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am so sorry to heart that he did that to you, but Jesus did not carry any gender issues over to the new covenant. There is not one rule for men and another for women. If you were the innocent mate and he has become "one flesh" with another woman, you are free of him. Your divorce was not only legal but scriptural. Why would God prevent you from finding happiness by being shackled to an adulterer? What applies to an innocent husband, applies also to an innocent wife. The innocent mate did not cause the divorce, but are the victims of someone's unfaithfulness. God hates those who cause pain to their mates this way. (Malachi 2:13-14)


The OT rules applied so that marriage would remain an important commitment. A man who had relations with a woman but whom he had no intentions to marry, would have to think twice about not being able to divorce her all the days of his life.

A man who was not married was not permitted to have sexual relations with a woman until after their wedding.
The Greek word "porneia" means all forms of sexual immorality.....Jesus said that even looking inappropriately at another woman, could cause a man to "commit adultery with her in his heart"..... so if all that is missing is opportunity, the deed is as good as done from God's standpoint.

Your husband dealt treacherously with you, and God collected your tears in his skin bottle. (Psalm 56:8)
You are free.

Thanks but I am happy being a wife. Isaiah 54:5