HERESY?

[Wrangler]

Trinity is just a word , as is rapture . Its the meaning behind the word .

The word and the meaning behind the word trinity is also not in Scripture.

It's so odd that trinitarians take the most vague or figurative comments and read into it their doctrine over the explicit word of God. Many have even taken the figurative words as if they were explicit when they are not. Jesus said in John 20:17 that he is going to his God.

This is explicit. Jesus has a God! In John 17:3 Jesus says his Father is the only true God.

Jesus' God is the only God.

God = LORD = Father
Jesus = Son = Savior = lord (lowercase)

It's not heresy. It's the Word of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Read first timothy chapter three verse sixteen .
I read it once to a devout Jehova witness . She stuttered and stammered . Looks like they forgot to take something out
of they own bible . She finally said the worst thing anyone ever could . YOU SEE , SHE KNEW i had pointed her to the truth .
She could not debate it . BUT HERE is what her only response was to me . WELL , IF GOD wants us to really KNOW THIS
HE will let the elders know this . TALK about deceptoin . SHE KNEW . SHE KNEW and yet could not let go of her error
HOWEVER if the WATCH TOWER ever said it was error , SHE WOULD say amen . SO HOW On earth are they any different
than the very Catholic church of ROME which they accuse . OH ITS FALSE . I had to say that to ensure none think i think otherwise .
YET they both follow MEN , NOT CHRIST .

I could not let this go.....I actually laughed out loud because this is pure KJV bias expressed in translation....and you have swallowed what you accuse my sister of doing.

Let’s look at what this scripture really says especially in Greek, because you do understand that your precious KJV was not written by the hand of God, and is the most biased translation in existence as far as the trinity is concerned....? Look at what the KJV adds to that verse....”God” is not there. But this scripture is clearly talking about the Christ.

Perhaps the sister that you spoke with was unaware of the Greek, and did not know how many additions the KJV actually makes when translating the word of God in the most blatantly biased way....We are not all Bible scholars and perhaps this was some time ago before we had access to our current research tools? We are better informed now, than we have ever been, as prophesied by Daniel. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

KJV...”But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

ASV...”but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.”


Mounce Interlinear....”I am writing these things to you, even though I am hoping to come to you quickly , but if I wait, so that you may know how it is necessary for people to conduct themselves in the house of God , which is the church of the living God , a pillar and buttress of the truth . And undeniably great is the mystery of godliness, who was revealed in flesh , was vindicated in spirit , appeared to angels ; was preached among the nations , was believed in the world , was taken up in glory.”

RSV...”if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.”

Those who accept the KJV without question, have had the wool pulled so far over their own eyes that quite frankly, they would not know the truth unless they explored God’s word outside of their precious KJV. It’s errors are numerous.

So climb down amigo and inform yourself about what the Bible really says before you go staking your life on the errors of the KJV. Any wonder trinitarians want to cling to it....

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Good day ma’am

keep ignoring your sin and denying it (pumping your chest) while judging me as a sinner.

I acknowledge and admit My sin like Paul did. And the tax collector did

I can’t go on with this

I never accused you of being a sinner - you did. Of all the apostles Paul claimed to be the chief of sinners but the context was "formerly." Jesus freed Paul from his sin of persecuting and killing Christians. But I had the same struggle with sin as you claim to have BEFORE being born again and baptized with the Holy Spirit. I can tell that is what you need also. If you want to accuse me of being pompous instead of what I really am - grateful, and joyous of my close relationship with God - that is up to you. Even after being filled with the Spirit we have to remain pure, and that is up to us. It is not hard, we just have to protect ourselves from temptations. But until we are filled with the Spirit we will always struggle. We may know what is right, but just don't want to do it. Examining what our true desire is can tell you whether you are born again or not. Those who are are free from those old desires, and we just have to deliberately keep growing in the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-9. And the main thing that those born again have to remember to do is forgive others. That is what can be hard, but is our duty.

 

[Wrangler]

your precious KJV was not written by the hand of God, and is the most biased translation in existence as far as the trinity is concerned

Profoundly true. Funny how they continue to refer to it even after it’s been refuted.

 

[marks]

I could not let this go.....I actually laughed out loud because this is pure KJV bias expressed in translation....and you have swallowed what you accuse my sister of doing.

Let’s look at what this scripture really says especially in Greek, because you do understand that your precious KJV was not written by the hand of God, and is the most biased translation in existence as far as the trinity is concerned....? Look at what the KJV adds to that verse....”God” is not there. But this scripture is clearly talking about the Christ.

Are you talking about translation issues, or manuscript family differences?

It sounds to me that you are attempting to impugn the KJ translators because you like the other set of manuscripts.

You who write so down towards others, is this what you are doing? Promoting the questionable Alexandrian manuscripts over the much more reliable Majority Manuscript? And blaming the difference on a poor translation?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's so odd that trinitarians take the most vague or figurative comments and read into it their doctrine over the explicit word of God. Many have even taken the figurative words as if they were explicit when they are not. Jesus said in John 20:17 that he is going to his God.

Trinitarians understand that when the Son of God was given a body, and born human, he took upon him the human status, as Jeremiah so succintly put it, God is the "God of all flesh". Ask yourself . . . why did Jesus have to be baptized in a baptism for the repentance of sins? He had no sins.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Notice how Scripture does not read, "Jesus has made me free from sin?" This passage means that, through Christ, we are free from the consequences of our sin. The consequences of our sin is death and this is the law. We are free from the law but not free from sin any more than we are free from breathing.

I've heard that heresy over and over. It is called a license to sin. Why in the world have you never questioned that nonsense. Read John 8:32-36 if you want to know the truth.

The problem with the law was it couldn't take away sin, not just the consequences. THAT is why Jesus came. To write those laws on our reborn heart and make us like Christ so we could be pure enough to even enter heaven, because without holiness, no man shall see God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

I just to have some clarification here. The ECF's were not taught by the Apostles. The men that were taught by the Apostles are commonly called in theological circles as the "Apostolic Fathers". They would be Clement of Rome, Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch.

The ECF's would be Justin Martyr, Ireneus, Clement of Alexandria (not a complete list). They were not taught by the Apostles but probably taught by men who were taught by the Apostles (or a close proximity thereof).

The reason I am so passionate about getting this right is that when I started reading the Apostolic Fathers they brought out of my Protestant confusion and into The Church. Plus, I love Christian history.

Thank you for your time....Mary

Agreed 100%
I'm just so tired of explaining it each time.
When I quote one of them, I'm told their writings were not inspired. I believe Ignatius of Antioch was taught by John and another Apostle and to have to hear that he was not inspired makes me giggle.
I have a chart that shows who was taught by whom.
I like the Didache, whose dating had now been put before 100AD. How about Barnabus, that almost made it into the bible?

I'm sorry most Protestants do not know Christian history , OTOH I do think it's dangerous to base doctrine on writings outside the bible.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm sorry most Protestants do not know Christian history

Yes. It would be a good idea to have a course on History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff in every church. But he does not pull any punches about the paganism that crept into the Catholic church either. But Catholics flatly deny that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. It would be a good idea to have a course on History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff in every church. But he does not pull any punches about the paganism that crept into the Catholic church either. But Catholics flatly deny that.

But why put such an emphasis on this aspect?
Christmas was to offset a pagan feast,,,maybe it was necessary? Why does Schaff believe this was done?

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, Jesus takes away the nature that willfully commits lawlessness against the laws of God. Our old nature was in opposition to His laws; therefore always struggled Romans 7:14-23. But the Spirit frees us from that struggle by writing His laws on a new nature which is called being born again. Romans 8:1-9 NKJV (not a modern version like NASB or NIV or newer). So now God's laws are part of our new nature, so that we are no longer in opposition to God's laws.

The only thing we commit now are due to immaturity in the fruit of the Spirit, and the process of maturing takes a long time, and for those to become cleansed by our Advocate, we must stay reconciled with those who trespass against us, namely forgiving them. And apologizing when we find that, right or wrong, someone may have something against us. God wants us to reconcile, which can be hard, but it is called purifying ourselves and keeping ourselves. 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 5:18. Matthew 6:14-15. 1 Peter 1:15-16

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Yes, it sounds like you believe we stop sinning at some point. I dislike debating this but will make the following points:

1. What does holy mean to you?
2. If we didn't sin, we wouldn't need an advocate with the Father.
3. Jesus said to confess our sins to each other and James reported this - I believe James heard Jesus say this.
4. If we forgive men, our Father will forgive us.
5. Sanctification is an ongoing process.
6. The sin nature is suppressed, not removed.

 

[Enoch111]

Why does Schaff believe this was done?

"In the Christian martyr-worship and saint-worship, which now spread with giant strides over the whole Christian world, we cannot possibly mistake the succession of the pagan worship of gods and heroes, with its noisy popular festivities. Augustine puts into the mouth of a heathen the question: "Wherefore must we forsake gods, which the Christians themselves worship with us?" He deplores the frequent revels and amusements at the tombs of the martyrs; though he thinks that allowance should be made for these weaknesses out of regard to the ancient custom.

Leo the Great speaks of Christians in Rome who first worshipped the rising sun, doing homage to the pagan Apollo, before repairing to the basilica of St. Peter. Theodoret defends the Christian practices at the graves of the martyrs by pointing to the pagan libations, propitiations, gods, and demigods. Since Hercules, Aesculapitis, Bacchus, the Dioscuri, and many other objects of pagan worship were mere deified men, the Christians, he thinks, cannot be blamed for honoring their martyrs—not making them gods but venerating them as witnesses and servants of the only, true God.

Chrysostom mourns over the theatrical customs, such as loud clapping in applause, which the Christians at Antioch and Constantinople brought with them into the church. In the Christmas festival, which from the fourth century spread from Rome over the entire church, the holy commemoration of the birth of the Redeemer is associated—to this day, even in Protestant lands—with the wanton merriments of the pagan Saturnalia.

And even in the celebration of Sunday, as it was introduced by Constantine, and still continues on the whole continent of Europe, the cultus of the old sun-god Apollo mingles, with the remembrance of the resurrection of Christ; and the widespread profanation of the Lord’s Day, especially on the continent of Europe, demonstrates the great influence which heathenism still exerts upon Roman and Greek Catholic, and even upon Protestant, Christendom."

 

[JohnPaul]

JohnPaul is Jehovah's Witness.....Duly Noted.

I have great respect for the Witnesses of God, great endearing people, one brother many decades ago set me in the right path by simply giving me a Bible and asking me to read it, a King James Bible, because he knew I was Catholic, that was many decades ago, he got me to question things that I started seeing didn’t coincide with Bible that was going on in my Church, I thank him for that and wish I knew where he was so I could thank him personally, and now here on this great forum I find a sister who is willing to teach me without forcing conversion but simply telling me to ask questions anytime I want answers, taking time out of her day to answer someone’s questions she’s never met, no passing judgments no hatred but only love in her heart, that dear sister of mine is Aunty Jane.

Who else on here has done that for me? Two people Aunty Jane and MatthewG, how great and Christian is that?

So to answer your question @Grailhunter, no I am not a Jehovah’s Witness, I am still learning and asking questions, but what a great compliment and honor to be called a Witness of the one true God Jehovah, I thank you for calling me that, but I don’t yet deserve such an honor, as I have not yet taken that step and my humility can not accept such an honor from a person who judges others and hates fellow Christians who do not agree with versions of made up scripture such as you Grailhunter.

But perhaps one day when I have asked enough questions and have learned enough of the Bible I might take that step and join fellow Christian’s who are Witnesses of the one true God Jehovah, if they would take me in when the time comes, for I have never felt such love than that of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and their willingness to teach the true word of God unadulterated, but what it says truthfully in the good Book, the word of God.

For there is only one God and one Son and that is God Jehovah and his only begotten Son our Savior Jesus Christ.

So duly note this Grailhunter, I thank you for calling me a Jehovah's Witness and thinking of me in such a kind way that you would think I was a Jehovah’s Witness, you have made me very happy and have made this day a great one for me.

Through Aunty Janes’s kindness and willingness to teach me the truth, I might just seek out a fellowship with Jehovah’s Witnesses, there is a Kingdom Hall not to far from me, so with Aunty Jane’s guidance and true Christian love and unbiased willingness to help her fellow Christians that seek the true word of God, such as myself and when I’m worthy enough I’ll take that step and bear the name Jehovah’s Witness and become one with them.

 

[JohnPaul]

Not a safe religion at all . I have spoken with many a jehovah witness . WE MUST CLING TO THE BIBLE and learn well that sound doctrine .

Is not believing in the one true God safe Friend of Christ?

 

[JohnPaul]

LOL There are some red flags that can warn you of false religions.
I have assisted in intervention teams trying to rescue young people and wives from Jehovah Witness groups. When you see professional intervention teams busy with groups, that is a big red flag. Physical abuse within the family, wives held captive with threats, not just from their husbands but their own mom's and dad's and family members. And I have had my own physical altercations with them.

When they want to twist the truth so bad that they come up with their own Bible....that is another red flag.

I have been in Kingdom Halls and the way they study the Bible is very much like a cult....and because of that and some people have a hard time escaping their groups....ie professional interventionists it also would suggest what people call cults. They are not a cult but they exhibit some of the characteristics of real cults. For example you can take a young adult and sit them down with an interventionist and try to talk to them and they give you quick responses for anything because it has all been drilled into them.

If you ever go to one these Kingdom Halls (they do not like the term church) you will see what I am saying is true....They call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses for a reason....It is all about God the Father and the Old Testament and rehearsing on how to prove Christ was not a God. Weaving and twisting the scriptures, that is another red flag.

They do not observe Christian holidays except Christ's death. But you might have your Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner interrupted when they come knocking on your door. They go door to door trying to convince people that Christ was only human.

It is you who are twisting and weaving. What Christian holidays? Saturnalia or the birth of Tammuz on the winter solstice or Easter after the fertility Goddess with her bunny rabbits and eggs? It is people like you who are dangerous and spew hatred because one does not agree with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is you who are twisting and weaving. What Christian holidays? Saturnalia or the birth of Tammuz on the winter solstice or Easter after the fertility Goddess with her bunny rabbits and eggs? It is people like you who are dangerous and spew hatred because one does not agree with you.

Hi John Paul
I don't see any hatred in @Grailhunter .
Just let me say that Christians don't celebrate bunnies and eggs, but the resurrection of Jesus.

As to the JW, I know that if someone leaves that community, they are shunned by their very own family members, if the also happen to belong to that group.

 

[GodsGrace]

"In the Christian martyr-worship and saint-worship, which now spread with giant strides over the whole Christian world, we cannot possibly mistake the succession of the pagan worship of gods and heroes, with its noisy popular festivities. Augustine puts into the mouth of a heathen the question: "Wherefore must we forsake gods, which the Christians themselves worship with us?" He deplores the frequent revels and amusements at the tombs of the martyrs; though he thinks that allowance should be made for these weaknesses out of regard to the ancient custom.

Leo the Great speaks of Christians in Rome who first worshipped the rising sun, doing homage to the pagan Apollo, before repairing to the basilica of St. Peter. Theodoret defends the Christian practices at the graves of the martyrs by pointing to the pagan libations, propitiations, gods, and demigods. Since Hercules, Aesculapitis, Bacchus, the Dioscuri, and many other objects of pagan worship were mere deified men, the Christians, he thinks, cannot be blamed for honoring their martyrs—not making them gods but venerating them as witnesses and servants of the only, true God.

Chrysostom mourns over the theatrical customs, such as loud clapping in applause, which the Christians at Antioch and Constantinople brought with them into the church. In the Christmas festival, which from the fourth century spread from Rome over the entire church, the holy commemoration of the birth of the Redeemer is associated—to this day, even in Protestant lands—with the wanton merriments of the pagan Saturnalia.

And even in the celebration of Sunday, as it was introduced by Constantine, and still continues on the whole continent of Europe, the cultus of the old sun-god Apollo mingles, with the remembrance of the resurrection of Christ; and the widespread profanation of the Lord’s Day, especially on the continent of Europe, demonstrates the great influence which heathenism still exerts upon Roman and Greek Catholic, and even upon Protestant, Christendom."

Thanks Enoch.
On a phone, so will reply tomorrow.
Just this, by the time of Augustine, the early church was already being corrupted. Agreed.

As to the feasts, I haven't read anything bewildering,,,maybe it's just too late here.
Tomorrow.

 

[amigo de christo]

Is not believing in the one true God safe Friend of Christ?

Its very safe . But we better KNOW its the ONE TRUE GOD we are following and heeding .
For as you well know , many others can say the same thing . But are not following HIM at all ,but rather men .
And that is very deadly .

 

[amigo de christo]

It is you who are twisting and weaving. What Christian holidays? Saturnalia or the birth of Tammuz on the winter solstice or Easter after the fertility Goddess with her bunny rabbits and eggs? It is people like you who are dangerous and spew hatred because one does not agree with you.

Helloween should not christain touch .
As for christmas and passover or as some call it easter , We cannot mix in the pagan with the holy and expect to please GOD .
This is where we must really read our bibles .
GOD will not accept the pagan with the holy . So no christmas trees , no santa . Just keep it holy and pure .
Celebrate the BIRTH of CHRIST , but do so without the pagan . Celebrate and remember His ride into Jerusalem
and His crucifixtion and His ressurection , BUT MIX NOT the UNHOLY PAGAN into the celebration .
I will leave us with a reminder FROM GOD through a prophet .
HE said , IF ye wanna serve baal THEN GO DO SO , ONLY YOU LEAVE MY NAME OUT OF IT .
SO no more trees , no more santa , no more bunnies . Keep it HOLY and keep it pure .

 

[amigo de christo]

I could not let this go.....I actually laughed out loud because this is pure KJV bias expressed in translation....and you have swallowed what you accuse my sister of doing.

Let’s look at what this scripture really says especially in Greek, because you do understand that your precious KJV was not written by the hand of God, and is the most biased translation in existence as far as the trinity is concerned....? Look at what the KJV adds to that verse....”God” is not there. But this scripture is clearly talking about the Christ.

Perhaps the sister that you spoke with was unaware of the Greek, and did not know how many additions the KJV actually makes when translating the word of God in the most blatantly biased way....We are not all Bible scholars and perhaps this was some time ago before we had access to our current research tools? We are better informed now, than we have ever been, as prophesied by Daniel. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

KJV...”But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

ASV...”but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.”


Mounce Interlinear....”I am writing these things to you, even though I am hoping to come to you quickly , but if I wait, so that you may know how it is necessary for people to conduct themselves in the house of God , which is the church of the living God , a pillar and buttress of the truth . And undeniably great is the mystery of godliness, who was revealed in flesh , was vindicated in spirit , appeared to angels ; was preached among the nations , was believed in the world , was taken up in glory.”

RSV...”if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.”

Those who accept the KJV without question, have had the wool pulled so far over their own eyes that quite frankly, they would not know the truth unless they explored God’s word outside of their precious KJV. It’s errors are numerous.

So climb down amigo and inform yourself about what the Bible really says before you go staking your life on the errors of the KJV. Any wonder trinitarians want to cling to it....

I would also refer the geneva , cept it has too many footnotes . Beware , however the newer versions .
As for russell nash his greek was bogus . He simply made it up to suit his own pre concieved ideals .
I notice that the much older bibles like KJV and GENEVA were very much the same and very accurate indeed .
As for some other translations , and i have read quite a few , i just cant recommned them . Though
i never accuse folks who read them of being from satan or condmened . I would just point them back to the KJV
for more accuracy .