HERESY?

[Marymog]

Yes, but did you know I've been a "Christian" all my life, but wasn't actually saved for 30 years? We MUST be born again of the Spirit. Not everyone who believes they are a Christian, actually have God inside them. Most are just still being drawn by the Holy Spirit, but He remains outside of us. No life change has happened. Partly because they have never truly repented. And also because after receiving the Holy Spirit they do not continue growing. 2 Peter 1:8-9

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Enoch111]

Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account.

This was a reference to the elders in each local church. Not to a hierarchy of clergy and the pope.

 

[Marymog]

She uses the word "Jehovah" instead of God in this quote: '"Ridicule"? "Derision"? "What I don't understand"? That is the point....no one can "understand" the trinity because it makes no logical sense. Who gave us our sense of logic? Would Jehovah refer to his relationship with his son in ...'

That does bolster your suggestion that @Aunty Jane is JW...I wonder if she will admit it?

 

[Marymog]

This was a reference to the elders in each local church. Not to a hierarchy of clergy and the pope.

That is a fascinating theory. Who taught you that?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

MM, I was baptized in water 3 times BEFORE I was born again. THEN after I was filled with His Spirit, God spoke to me and told me I was to be baptized in water, really for the first time.

 

[Marymog]

This was a reference to the elders in each local church. Not to a hierarchy of clergy and the pope.

Soooo Your theory is that each local church has a leader that rules over them and the membes of those individual churches must be submissive to those indivual leaders???????

Soooooo when my leader tells me that according to scripture abortion is not murder and your leader tells you that it is....which one is right?

 

[Marymog]

MM, I was baptized in water 3 times BEFORE I was born again. THEN after I was filled with His Spirit, God spoke to me and told me I was to be baptized in water again, really for the first time.

I apologize....i was not suggesting that you were not baptized in water. I was merely pointing out that you didn't properly convey what Jesus said.


Why three times? Where does Scripture say we have to be baptized 3 times BEFORE we are born again?

Curious Mary

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Soooo Your theory is that each local church has a leader that rules over them and the membes of those individual churches must be submissive to those indivual leaders???????

Soooooo when my leader tells me that according to scripture abortion is not murder and your leader tells you that it is....which one is right?

I want to belong to a Church whose leader is the Holy Spirit flowing through the congregation and is lead by Him.

 

[Marymog]

I want to belong to a Church whose leader is the Holy Spirit flowing through the congregation and is lead by Him.

Have you found that leader/church?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I apologize....i was not suggesting that you were not baptized in water. I was merely pointing out that you didn't properly convey what Jesus said.


Why three times? Where does Scripture say we have to be baptized 3 times BEFORE we are born again?

Curious Mary

The point is just getting baptized in water is like burying someone alive. It doesn't mean anything. Baptism is in recognition that your old nature is dead and that you rise up a new creature with a divine nature of God. It is out of a good conscience, meaning your sin nature is dead, and are now being lead my the Holy Spirit.

Many have it backwards. They believe baptism is to receive the Holy Spirit. NO. True repentance from a truly repentant heart allows you to receive the Holy Spirit. You must die to self, in order to live to God. When that has happened, then your baptism represents what has happened. You are a follower of Christ in every way.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Have you found that leader/church?

I've only been in one church/congregation like that back in the 1970's

 

[Marymog]

I've only been in one church/congregation like that back in the 1970's

I'm curious.....if you found a church that has the Holy Spirit flowing thru the congregation, why did you stop going? What church was that?

Curious mary

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm curious.....if you found a church that has the Holy Spirit flowing thru the congregation, why did you stop going? What church was that?

Curious mary

We moved.

 

[Marymog]

The point is just getting baptized in water is like burying someone alive. It doesn't mean anything. Baptism is in recognition that your old nature is dead and that you rise up a new creature with a divine nature of God. It is out of a good conscience, meaning your sin nature is dead, and are now being lead my the Holy Spirit.

Many have it backwards. They believe baptism is to receive the Holy Spirit. NO. True repentance from a truly repentant heart allows you to receive the Holy Spirit. You must die to self, in order to live to God.

It does mean something. Jesus said Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

He assured us that we MUST do it and if we don't we can NOT enter the kingdom of God. So it does mean something. And no where in that passage does it say that by getting baptized with water it "is in recognition that your old nature is dead and that you rise up a new creature with a divine nature of God."

 

[Marymog]

We moved.

Thank you for answering the 1st question. What about the 2nd question: what church was it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi GG,

Most westerners with a Greek mindset like us, read 1 John 1, just as you do. But those who really study learn the "mindset" of the eastern apostle which can mean something quite different than the simple way a westerner grasps the words. 1 John 1 is TO Christians, warning them of the false teachers infiltrating the Church - the Gnostics. It is also to those Gnostics that are in John's congregation with their own twisted beliefs. Unfortunately, almost 2000 years later, those false doctrines have taken root in the Church, and has become the most popular in the Church.

Agreed.
John was very worried about gnosticism invading the church.
When he writes: They left us because they were not of us...
He was speaking about gnostics that realized they did not belong to the church.

The apostle John was using the eastern Semitic writing style of contrasts. It is light (of God) verses darkness (of sin). The Gnostics of verses 6, 8, and 10 taught that sins of the flesh were not sins. Thus they were fellowshipping with God but committing sins of the flesh and believing those sins didn't separate them from God; that they were not sins of the "spirit" so okay with God. Thus they said they didn't sin, even though they did, because they were without the Spirit of God in them, nor could they understand His Word. They were carnal.

What you say about the gnostics is correct, of course.
I'm not insisting that John was NOT speaking about gnostics because some theologians believe he was.
And it does make logical sense also.

But then what does 1 John 2:1 mean?
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

John is addressing MY LITTLE CHILDREN....
He is writing so that they may NOT sin...
BUT IF anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father...

This is for Christians.
It would seem to me that John knows that some will still sin,
but we can confess our sins to God Father.

Also, after I read your "Edit" I'd like to get into some history...

Edit: But the bottom line is what you, yourself, practice. Do you commit willful sins, or does your conscience prevent you? There are those who believe as you do in interpreting these verses in 1 John, but do as John's first reason for writing is, 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. Why say that if all Christians still sin and impossible not to? But that is just the doctrine we are discussing. It is what we do in our own lives that truly matters. Therefore, if you follow your conscience and don't go against your conscience, and yet teach others your interpretation of 1 John 1, which is actually contradictory to how you conduct yourself, that is what is meant by conducting yourself in a worthy manner, but teaching a false doctrine. That is the true meaning of another misunderstood scripture by others who believe that 1 John 1:8 is a true Christian, 1 Corinthians 3:14 "If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." Meaning the false doctrine will be burned as untrue, but the righteous Christian will be saved according to his actual conduct.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is used by Catholics to support their doctrine of purgatory.
Actually, it's speaking of the ministry of Paul and Apollos.

You used the same verse I did...SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN...
But then John gives these Children of his a way out...
Why?

Here's the history I'd like to share with you, seeing as how you know and enjoy history (I think).

The Catholic Church does actual confession - confessing to a priest who announces the penitent to be forgiven by God.
Confession was not always practiced as it is today.
At the beginning persons confessed audibly in a group, in a "church" setting...be it a bldg or a home.
This caused problems, as you can imagine. So it changed, gradually, to what they do today.

But WHY have confession at all?

At the beginning it was believed that those that were believers and were baptized would automatically stop sinning.
It was realized, very quickly, that even those that were baptized - thus being buried and risen with Christ - would still be sinning
at some point or other; even though their life changed for the better.

So how could this be handled?
Since Jesus told the Apostles in John 20:23 that they could forgive or retain forgiveness for sins, they decided on some type of communal
confession for forgiveness of sins.

Let's leave it at this for now.
But do you know what the ECFs thought about sinning?
Maybe next time...

 

[farouk]

Agreed.
John was very worried about gnosticism invading the church.
When he writes: They left us because they were not of us...
He was speaking about gnostics that realized they did not belong to the church.



What you say about the gnostics is correct, of course.
I'm not insisting that John was NOT speaking about gnostics because some theologians believe he was.
And it does make logical sense also.

But then what does 1 John 2:1 mean?
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

John is addressing MY LITTLE CHILDREN....
He is writing so that they may NOT sin...
BUT IF anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father...

This is for Christians.
It would seem to me that John knows that some will still sin,
but we can confess our sins to God Father.

Also, after I read your "Edit" I'd like to get into some history...


1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is used by Catholics to support their doctrine of purgatory.
Actually, it's speaking of the ministry of Paul and Apollos.

You used the same verse I did...SO THAT YOU MAY NOT SIN...
But then John gives these Children of his a way out...
Why?

Here's the history I'd like to share with you, seeing as how you know and enjoy history (I think).

The Catholic Church does actual confession - confessing to a priest who announces the penitent to be forgiven by God.
Confession was not always practiced as it is today.
At the beginning persons confessed audibly in a group, in a "church" setting...be it a bldg or a home.
This caused problems, as you can imagine. So it changed, gradually, to what they do today.

But WHY have confession at all?

At the beginning it was believed that those that were believers and were baptized would automatically stop sinning.
It was realized, very quickly, that even those that were baptized - thus being buried and risen with Christ - would still be sinning
at some point or other; even though their life changed for the better.

So how could this be handled?
Since Jesus told the Apostles in John 20:23 that they could forgive or retain forgiveness for sins, they decided on some type of communal
confession for forgiveness of sins.

Let's leave it at this for now.
But do you know what the ECFs thought about sinning?
Maybe next time...

@GodsGrace Just goes to show how important it is to keep a clear, Scriptural view of the Person and work of Christ...

 

[Davy]

If it meant anything I would responded to it.
Christ was not the one that translated that to hell.
Man, you have a lot of stuff mixed up.
Even the Latin Vulgate was not calling it hell.

The word "hell" is not what I'm referring to, and you well know it!

It's the following... word in the Greek NT manuscripts that IS... the point, and is what I showed you... But for some idiotic reason, you keep steering away... from that Greek word that was translated to "hell" in English...


NT:1067
geena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin [OT:1516 and OT:2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:

KJV - hell.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There is no Greek word 'geena', that is a transliterated word from Hebreew 'Hinnom'.



OT:2011
Hinnom (hin-nome'); probably of foreign origin; Hinnom, apparently a Jebusite:

KJV - Hinnom.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

HINNOM
"(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in Josh 15:8; 18:16, where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, 1 Kings 11:7, whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, 2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chron 28:3; 33:6, and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, 2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chron 34:4,5, from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley — Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom) — to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. Matt 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5."
(from Smith's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 

[Grailhunter]

The word "hell" is not what I'm referring to, and you well know it!

It's the following... word in the Greek NT manuscripts that IS... the point, and is what I showed you... But for some idiotic reason, you keep steering away... from that Greek word that was translated to "hell" in English...


NT:1067
geena (gheh'-en-nah); of Hebrew origin [OT:1516 and OT:2011]; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:

KJV - hell.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There is no Greek word 'geena', that is a transliterated word from Hebreew 'Hinnom'.



OT:2011
Hinnom (hin-nome'); probably of foreign origin; Hinnom, apparently a Jebusite:

KJV - Hinnom.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

HINNOM
"(lamentation), Valley of, otherwise called "the valley of the son" or "children of Hinnom," a deep and narrow ravine, with steep, rocky sides, to the south and west of Jerusalem, separating Mount Zion to the north from the "hill of evil counsel," and the sloping rocky plateau of the "plain of Rephaim" to the south. The earliest mention of the valley of Hinnom is in Josh 15:8; 18:16, where the boundary line between the tribes of Judah and Benjamin is described as passing along the bed of the ravine. On the southern brow, overlooking the valley at its eastern extremity Solomon erected high places for Molech, 1 Kings 11:7, whose horrid rites were revived from time to time in the same vicinity the later idolatrous kings. Ahaz and Manasseh made their children "pass through the fire" in this valley, 2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chron 28:3; 33:6, and the fiendish custom of infant sacrifice to the fire-gods seems to have been kept up in Tophet, which was another name for this place. To put an end to these abominations the place was polluted by Josiah, who renders it ceremonially unclean by spreading over it human bones and other corruptions, 2 Kings 23:10,13,14; 2 Chron 34:4,5, from which time it appears to have become the common cesspool of the city, into which sewage was conducted, to be carried off by the waters of the Kidron. From its ceremonial defilement, and from the detested and abominable fire of Molech, if not from the supposed ever-burning funeral piles, the later Jews applied the name of this valley — Ge Hinnom, Gehenna (land of Hinnom) — to denote the place of eternal torment. In this sense the word is used by our Lord. Matt 5:29; 10:28; 23:15; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5."
(from Smith's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

We have run the trash dump thing into the ground. I suppose there was a lot of things around Jerusalem used for different things over the centuries and certainly paganism. Jerusalem was one of those towns that cities were built on top of cities. So I am not contesting Pagan activity in the area over the course of time.

I am just saying Christ makes no connection to it when He is referencing the burning trash dump in His analogy of an eternal fiery punishment. And I have said and asked before....is this in your mind, or do you have a scripture that shows Christ making a connection between the burning trash dump and past Pagan activities? So far nothing.

 

[Davy]

The Bible has already told us what repentance is for. It is to receive the Holy Spirit! Acts 2:38-39. Now think! How many times do you need to receive the Holy Spirit and become born again. Once He is in you, does he go away again, and then you sin? So need Him back again?

Nah, that's just what those men's traditions you heed have told you. When Jesus told the five Churches in Asia that had problems, they had already believed on Him, otherwise He would not have told them to 'repent'. And when He warned them to repent, that was definitely not in order for them to receive The Holy Spirit. Jesus was saying that repent to them as a REBUKE.

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

Do you find yourself doing things against your own conscience? Is that why you believe 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are true Christians, and not verse 7? How do you confirm that interpretation, and still remain pure so you can go to heaven. 1 John 3:3.

You really should go over Romans 7 again with what Apostle Paul taught about the battle between our spirit and our flesh. Even he said that when he would do good, he finds himself doing just the opposite. So are you better than Apostle Paul? I think not. I know you're not, nor am I.

The idea of the walk with Jesus is to 'repent' when we mess up. It just ain't that hard to figure out, because it follows the same kind of relationships we have with our own family members. If we do wrong to a brother, or a sister, or a mother, or a father, what should we do? Just go about our business as if nothing happened, and allow our family to steam under their breath at us? I guarantee, anyone who keeps doing that will wind up with their own family rejecting them and not having anything to do with them. Lord Jesus isn't any different in that respect, even as He showed with Old Testament Israel when they rebelled against Him.

Thus that is what those fake doctors of wisdom are teaching when they say we have no further need to repent of sin after having come to Jesus.