I don't even think in those terms. We're really apart on this. There is NO punishment.
Much love!
Should Christians Always Be Healed?
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Much love!
In a sense I agree. But now I was referencing physical ailments as opposed to suffering persecution. What do you think of my military analogy? I like relating the Christian life to the spiritual war. I tend to always come away with clear-minded theology every time.
How do you see your condition/ situation in light of the spiritual war? Because that is the way I interpret mine.
To me it's about seeking the Lord daily to do what pleases Him. The rest is a distant 2nd. But all these little things He uses to "herd us" the right direction. To train us to trust Him through anything. To teach us to let go every weight, and the sin that so easily entangles us, resisting even unto blood, not forgetting that God trains as children His sons.
God intends us to run our race, and when we don't, when we slow down, when we stop, He trains us, building through His management of our afflictions a foundation of trust proven out by experience. So that we can have a trust that doesn't need experience for being so strong!
Much love!
I think how we relate to the world is more like war, but how we relate to God is more like family.
Much love!
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV
13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Temptation . . . peirasmos . . . testing/tempting
Whatever it is that tests your faith
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 KJV
16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
This include afflictions of the body, that result in death.
Much love!
13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Temptation . . . peirasmos . . . testing/tempting
Whatever it is that tests your faith
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 KJV
16) For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
This include afflictions of the body, that result in death.
Much love!
Likely, yes. Merely invoking a powerful name, rather than operating in the Spirit of that Name Himself.
Ok, let me take a stab at this, together with your question about why didn't they heal themselves rather than resorting to Paul.
In the case of Paul, those receiving healing were apparently the unsaved, but even there, faith was required on their part. I would have a tough time finding it, but earlier in this thread I/ we were discussing how Jesus could do no miracles in His home town because of their lack of faith in Him, thinking He was just the home town boy they had always known. The reason He did not do many miracles there was not because of Him but them. They didn't believe. So here faith must have been present on the part of those seeking out Paul for healing. So I don't know that Paul's healings can be related to the specific question.
As for casting out demons, this again is the purview of those in whom the Spirit dwells. Was it a gift only for specific believers? I don't see it included in the lists of the gifts either, so I would have to conclude no.
Why, you wanting to cast out some trouble or something?
Well that's a solid answer. For me, I war with Him, so it's kinda like I'm born into a family of war; a military family if you will. So when I have an ailment, my first response is generally, "Get the H out of my face, because I'm not getting hindered in what He has called me to do."
Again, I suppose it is all dependent on what work the Lord is doing in and/ or through us. The work within takes far greater priority than the work without, or we will never be fit for service. And sometimes there needs to be a renewed work within to go on to the next step, so I suppose that's all part of the equation.
Well that's a good answer.
Now I also can recognize certain familiar patterns of ministry that kinda give away where his influences are probably coming from, but I'll leave that alone and just focus on what he is preaching, and I'll try and comment on what I view as both the bad and the good; the right and the wrong.
I'm currently at 10:00, and he is saying the very thing I was telling Marks and Eternally Grateful is one of the big problems Faith people have with non-WoF believers: This notion that you just need to let God be God, and "He's gonna do whatever He wants to do," so we can't force the hand of God and yaddayaddayadda. I'm guessing we will likely agree on the rest of what he says about that.
But before progressing, his opening statement that "It is always God's will to heal" is where I discovered there is a problem. I posted it earlier in this thread, in Post #26. This is actually only one of at least a half dozen passages I can quote for you that pose a problem to this position, but let me start with this one:
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.(1 Corinthians 11:27-32)
Now what Paul was teaching here in this section of 1st Corinthians was this: They were letting a spirit of division conquer them, so badly in fact that they weren't even taking communion together any more. Some were coming earlier, gobbling up the food, and leaving nothing for poorer believers who came later. And their divisions were essentially destroying the spiritual temple of God, which is why Paul warned them in Chapter 5, saying, "If you destroy the temple of God, God will destroy you." This is also what he is referring to in verses 30-32 above. Because they were bringing the church of God there to destruction through their division, the Lord Himself was bringing sickness and even death upon some of them, just as he brought death to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts, and Jezebel and her family in Revelations 2. By taking communion amongst the saints of God, they were publicly declaring that they were members of His body, yet by their actions their were destroying that body, thus making themselves "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord."
Now, the question becomes this: If it is always God's will to heal, what was He doing here? If you take the position that it is always His desire to heal and never to bring judgment through sickness and death, for starters there are several passages that contradict this argument, but the key question is, how can He ever discipline His people? The typical argument among Faith people here is that God disciplines through His word, and that He doesn't need to discipline through punishments. But this runs entirely contrary to not only New Testament texts but a whole slew of Old Testament texts as well. The entire Babylonian captivity episode was one of dozens of instances where God specifically punished the people of Israel, and only one of the ways He could choose to do it. And as your pastor later quotes, Deuteronomy 28 included curses upon those who did not obey the commands of God. His judgments were His means of carrying these things out, and they were most certainly HIM carrying them out, not Satan.
I can prove this to you if you want to look at several passages, but that is a short summary of the central problem with the argument that it is always God's desire to heal. Sometimes it is His will to bring judgment, and even death upon those who are bringing potential spiritual death to His people.
So God brings judgements through sickness and death, but that is not His will. Like with your first passage, the reason for the judgement is eating communion in an unworthy manner.
God also disciplines everyone He loves too, just like I discipline my kids. Chastening and judgement were never part of God's perfect will. It is a result of the fall.
Just like 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Do people perish? Yes. Are people chastened and judged? Yes, because of sin.
I am a parent. I will discipline my kids in order that they learn right from wrong, because I love them. But it isn't my will to do that. It is their will that caused that.
God acts out in His righteousness and justice with love, because that is who He is. But we hinder God's will in ourselves and others because of 1) the Fall 2) we walk in sin/the flesh.
@Mayflower It's interesting that the Lord did not heal Paul of his thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12), but rather strengthened him by His grace instead.
Again God allowed the flood, but did He will that? Or was it because of peoples' sin that He was bound to His righteous and just nature against sin?
That doesn’t happen.
They come to Christ when they see God doesn’t leave believers in their sickness, but heals them.
I really just see one thing . . . that I live unto God in this moment, and in this moment, here's what's happening in my life, whatever it is, and I'm sharing it with Him.
And whether it's my knee that won't bend, or my infection won't clear, or my bills are backed up, or I've alienated my brother, or whatever the issue is, I don't really parse anything, only, Father, This is happening, and let's talk.
Much love!
When I have an ailment, I just proceed with whatever I need to do, trusting God for the ability, and if it turns out I cannot do something, I have a choice. I can think He failed me, or I lacked faith, or some such thing, or I can think that He intended it to be the way it was.
Assuming that if God does not supply what we are asking, that somehow this was our failure of faith, is itself a failure of faith, in that if we are questioning ourselves, we aren't trusting Him.
The kind of trust I'm talking about is choosing to assume that He will do what is good for Him to do, and that my asking is sufficient, that if He's waiting for me to ask, I've asked, and now I'm waiting for Him.
Much love!
Maybe it is semantics, because the above doesn't make sense to me the way I interpret the phrase "my will." I don't have kids, but I do have dogs, and they serve as my kids because I treat them just like if they were my children.
Now, when someone is really blowing it (such as starting a fight with the neighbors dogs across the street, and then I gotta pay a $50 vet bill for nothing, etc), it becomes my will to paddle someone's backside until they get it in their head that what they just did was wrong, and in worst case scenarios it could get them sentenced by a judge to being euthanized (I had this happen to a friend, btw, whose dog killed a cat right in front of its owner).
I can assure you it is my WILL to keep such a thing from happening, so it is my will to tan somebody's hide and make a very strong impression so that it gets prevented. This is the meaning of the passage in Hebrews:
5 You have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12)
So again, do you think it ever becomes God's will not to heal but to discipline through sickness and disease if necessary? Keep in mind that these things are part of the curses laid out very clearly in Deuteronomy 28, which passage serves as the very foundation of Faith teaching.
Bob Carabbio
Well-Known Member
Personal opinion (Developed over the last 30 years) - I tend to wander (get drawn away by "other things" that I might obsessively "lose myself in") not into SIN, per se, but more into a neglect of SPiritual things - but being keenely aware of my impending mortality, keeps the Spiritual a LOT closer to the surface. I'm a musician by nature, and skillset, and I have to "watch it" so it doesn't "take over" to the detriment of other things. Physical weakness and lack of stamina is a big help in that (and besides I'm almost 80).
Farouk, you keep bringing this up without reading the thread. I don't mean to be rude but you slow the conversation down when you do this. It has been addressed and continues to be addressed by several people. Please review the thread so that you can respond to opposing interpretations there, rather than assuming yours is the correct one.
I think of "will" as what I want for my child. So my will would be for my daughter to walk in a manner worthy of her calling. Also all the good I can do for her if she were to do so. If she were not and were to be disciplined, I would say she is hindering what I want to do for her really.
It could be semantics, because I think you count the means, but I think there is a danger in saying it like that, that it is God's will for someone to get sick. Because then this is when people start to blame God when it is really that sin that brought judgement. And I don't believe that judgement is what makes people sick 9 times out of 10.
It could be semantics, because I think you count the means, but I think there is a danger in saying it like that, that it is God's will for someone to get sick. Because then this is when people start to blame God when it is really that sin that brought judgement. And I don't believe that judgement is what makes people sick 9 times out of 10.
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