Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!

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theefaith

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Luke 1:34 is about the virgin birth, which no one is disputing. And human salvation is the result of what Jesus did after He was born. Mary and Joseph forgoing normal marital sex after Jesus was born serves no salvific purpose whatsoever.


Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

So Joseph cannot enter in where the Holy Spirit has entered!

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Biblical principle:
Anything Consecrated to God must be pure and used only for the purpose of serving God!

See exodus: the ark of the covenant, everything used in the temple etc.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Mary and her virginity are Consecrated to God in immaculate purity, the pure gold of divine love!

Mary was the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone!

Can a man use the ark of the covenant for a common dinner table?

Then Joseph can in no any way use Mary for a common wife!

No mere man may enter where God conceived! Ez 44:2

Mary would not consent to God’s will and to receive the exalted dignity of the mother of God if it means violating her vow of perpetual virginity then why simply consent relations with Joseph!

That’s impossible!

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

(This verse imply’s that Mary is consecrated to God alone! and has taken a vow of perpetual virginity! She was s willing to refuse even the exalted dignity of mother of God, the mother of our savior, and mother of all Christians if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

virginity to be virtuous must offered to God as sacrifice and perpetual
 

Ronald Nolette

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explan Lk 1:34


Let us post the full context so you can fully understand what Mary said in very simple and easy to understand language.


LUKE 1:

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1. Gabriel comes.
2. Makes the announcement she will have a baby.
3. Gabriel announces who the baby will be.
4. Mary says how? I have never had sex yet ! (know=sex)
5. Gabriel tells her how she will get. pregnant with Jesus.

Now in order for the RCC doctrine of perpetual virginity to be true- Mary here would have needed to say; "How shall this be, seeing I will never know a man?" (know=sex)

So let us look at the Word of God and see how god inspired Mary to say this.

From blue letter bible:

the verb "I know"

γινώσκω;
ginōskō I know? V-PIA-1S
it is a verb found in the present active indicative 1st person singular. And what does that mean?

Definition of "Present"
Represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.

Definition of "Active"
Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

Definition of "Indicative"
Is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

so Mary simply said, how can I get pregnant seeing as how I have not had sex yet with a man. It says nothing about whether or not she will ever have sex ever or not. It is simply dealing with Gabriels statement about her carrying Jesus-period.

When the reformation came and people were being hunted down by the RCC for the crime of reading the Bible on their own in their own language, the mythical perpetual virginity of Mary was quickly tossed as a man made construct!

Yo0u taking other verses and making them mean the perpetual virginity of Mary is a crime against God!!! When you do that you say- " I know this is what god said, but this is what He really meant!" Then how do we know you really mean what you say? If you accuse God of not saying what He meant, why should I trust you or the nicolatian priests of the RCC.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

So Joseph cannot enter in where the Holy Spirit has entered!

That is the temple gate not Mary's womb! That is rewriting Scripture! That is a mortal sin.


Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Once again rewqriting Scripture and committing mortal sin.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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That man is tanked completely . All we can do now is pray for him and warn against his doctrine .

Pretty much, but I am hoping his contined desire to post here is because teh foundation of the RCC is cracking. I remember my aunt being so patient with me and showing me time time time and time again from teh scriptures where I was wrong.
 

Mungo

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Let us post the full context so you can fully understand what Mary said in very simple and easy to understand language.


LUKE 1:

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1. Gabriel comes.
2. Makes the announcement she will have a baby.
3. Gabriel announces who the baby will be.
4. Mary says how? I have never had sex yet ! (know=sex)
5. Gabriel tells her how she will get. pregnant with Jesus.

Now in order for the RCC doctrine of perpetual virginity to be true- Mary here would have needed to say; "How shall this be, seeing I will never know a man?" (know=sex)

So let us look at the Word of God and see how god inspired Mary to say this.

From blue letter bible:

the verb "I know"

γινώσκω;
ginōskō I know? V-PIA-1S
it is a verb found in the present active indicative 1st person singular. And what does that mean?

Definition of "Present"
Represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.

Definition of "Active"
Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

Definition of "Indicative"
Is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

so Mary simply said, how can I get pregnant seeing as how I have not had sex yet with a man. It says nothing about whether or not she will ever have sex ever or not. It is simply dealing with Gabriels statement about her carrying Jesus-period.

When the reformation came and people were being hunted down by the RCC for the crime of reading the Bible on their own in their own language, the mythical perpetual virginity of Mary was quickly tossed as a man made construct!

Yo0u taking other verses and making them mean the perpetual virginity of Mary is a crime against God!!! When you do that you say- " I know this is what god said, but this is what He really meant!" Then how do we know you really mean what you say? If you accuse God of not saying what He meant, why should I trust you or the nicolatian priests of the RCC.

Let me give you an alternative understanding of the exchange between Mary and Gabriel, particularly examining the two statements
a. "behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son"
b. "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

1. Mary is married to Joseph. The translation of "espoused" (or “betrothed" or "engaged”) is poor. Jewish marriage of the time was in two stages. After the first stage (kiddushin) they are legally married, but later (usually a year) the second stage (nusuin) occurred; the bride entered the bridegroom’s house and the marriage was consummated.

In a normal marriage, during the first stage, the bride was not just hoping or expecting the second stage but was committed to it. She was committed to sexual intercourse and would have the expectation (or at least hope) that it would be followed by a child.

2. TGabriel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future. He does not say you have conceived but will conceive. He is pointing to the future but gives no timescale. This would normally be good news, especially a son, but would be assumed to follow on from the second stage of marriage.

3. But Mary asks a strange question. “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” In normal circumstances this would a silly question, so this indicates that this is not a normal marriage; that she has no expectation of sexual relations with Joseph. Note that at this stage the angel has not told Mary she will conceive by the Holy Spirit not Joseph.

Her question therefore only makes sense if she intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

Note Mary says I have no relations with a man (present tense). But I contend she is referring to the future as well. The angel has focussed on the future and so Mary’s reply must address the future as well.

Take the example above: someone says you will die of lung cancer. You reply “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Obviously if I expect to start smoking I can expect the possibility of contracting lung cancer at some time in the future. My question of “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Only makes sense if I do not expect to start smoking in the future. The “I do not smoke” is therefore not only something for the present but looks to the future as well; it implies something about the continuance of my not smoking. So too with Mary. Her reply only makes sense if it implies she intends to continue not to have a sexual relationship.

This use of the present tense implying the future is used in other places in the New Testament.
Mt 26:18 I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.”

Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

The Protoevangelium of James (not scriptural) tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin.

Thus the exchange indicated that Mary has made a vow of perpetual virginity. A vow that Joseph accepted and was fulfilled.
 

amigo de christo

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Sometimes I think people don’t understand what the word “faith” means…
Faith is in GOD and not in men who teach contrary .
Faith in GOD and all men are to be tested against the glorious biblical God inspired truth . IF a lamb loves , IT LOVES TRUTH , IT LOVES
GOD , it LOVE CHRIST above all and nothing is to be compared to that . FROM that kind of love
we love properly our neighbor as ourself . Hugging folk to hell and just getting along aint LOVE . Love would correct
it would speak truth to all , fOR LOVE would desire the death of none . I SURE WISHED many preachers UNDERSTOOD that .
 
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Bruce Atkinson

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No, Lk 1:34 is about Mary's perpetual virginity.

It would seem that several respondents somehow construe the quoted verse to magically switch from 'present tense' to 'forever future tense'. I am aware that it is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church in their Catechism that proclaims Mary's perpetual virginity that was somehow 'magically derived' for all I know by someone who may have been imbibing, perhaps.

Look at the whole conversation - present tense as the angel and Mary are clearly carrying on a conversation:

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV)
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Verse 34 is the PRESENT tense. NOWHERE in the conversation does Mary state directly or indirectly, or even hint that she intends to never have intercourse with Joseph. It merely indicates that from her birth to that point in time, Mary has never had sex. Period. How anyone can possibly claim to conclusively know or believe that she intended to remain a virgin is adding to scripture, twisting it, if you will. Nowhere in Gods' Word does Mary ever make a vow like Catholic nuns do of 100% abstention from sex. Also, nowhere in God's Word does it claim priests must also remain celibate. Both are inventions of the Catholic Church.

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

So Joseph cannot enter in where the Holy Spirit has entered!

Say what? How can anyone possibly think that verse 2 relates in any way to Mary, or, as prophesied in the Old Testament, a virgin? Look at verse 1! It speaks of the Temple, not any person! Look at verse 3. If verse 2 in any way refers to Mary's womb, then how can Christ 'eat bread' in it and enter in and go out as well? The whole set of verses is talking about the house of the Lord (v5) as a sanctuary, etc. Oh! One would think the Gospels would mention that Mary was facing east when talking to the angel in Luke 1, huh? Shame on you for trying to wildly twist scripture and foolishly apply it to Mary.

Ezekel 44:1-5 (KJV)
1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Again....taking one verse out of context and somehow imagining on your head that it applies to Mary in any size shape or form. I am amazed that anyone could possibly misconstrue scripture to the extent you seem to be doing so unfailingly.

Song of Solomon 4 speaks solely of Solomon admiring his bride. Of course, it is a 'picture' of Christ admiring HIS bride, ie, the church.

Song of Solomon 4:1-16 (KJV)
1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.
2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.
3 Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks.
4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.
5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies.
6 Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.
7 Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.
8 Come with me from Lebanon, my spouse, with me from Lebanon: look from the top of Amana, from the top of Shenir and Hermon, from the lions' dens, from the mountains of the leopards.
9 Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.
10 How fair is thy love, my sister, my spouse! how much better is thy love than wine! and the smell of thine ointments than all spices!
11 Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of
12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
13 Thy plants are an orchard of pomegranates, with pleasant fruits; camphire, with spikenard,
14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
 

marksman

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Perpetual Virginity of Mary the mother of God!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649) with the jurisdictional authority of Peter and the apostles in holy council! Matt 16:18 18:18 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20 bound on earth bound in heaven!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the temple & dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (only Jesus is savior)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

The Bible says Joseph a just and therefore a chaste man, it does not say he has gone into Mary anywhere in scripture, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him. Never says this about a Joseph, for He was full of fear and reverence for Her immaculate purity and holiness! Especially after hearing from an angel that her child was of the Holy Spirit!


Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: (rejoice at the birth of the savior)

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s!

Sorry but my response is you are up a creek without a paddle but I guess talking to yourself is a good way to reinforce what you believe.
love of the truth!

jude 1:3
Contend for the faith

The church has always taught the perpetual virginity of Mary, but the sins of the modernists is new


The union Christ and His holy church or the unity of the holy church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles is such that it cannot be harmed by the sins of men!

Automatic excommunication is incured upon the exercise of the intellect and will to teach error or Hersey or to commit grave sin! Men are sinners, with a sin nature and free will, but we should choose that which is good and holy! Rom 6:13

So the bride is spotless and without blemish!

The members of Christ in communion with God and each other are in a state of sanctifying grace!

We deplore the sins and outrages of abuse, most of which is done by homo’s on young boys, in any group especially those calling themselves Christian, the communists began infiltration in the seminary’s in the 30’s and the modernist’s and homo’s in the 60’s and 70’s

This is a symptom of error and Hersey
Modernism or theological liberalism, of the modern apostasy and nowhere does the true church teach anyone to do these things, nor do the Protestant sects which have the same issues! And we don’t blame the Protestant sects or leaders!

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

The church has always taught the perpetual virginity of Mary,.......

Correction. The catholic church has always taught the virginity of mary. No other church has.
 
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Mungo

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The church has always taught the perpetual virginity of Mary,.......

Correction. The catholic church has always taught the virginity of mary. No other church has.

Incorrect - see posts #22 & #23
 

JohnPaul

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So what were the names of Jesus' brothers and sisters and how many siblings did he have after his Mother gave birth to our Savior Jesus Christ?

I was taught Jesus was the only one born of the Blessed Mother, but since I've been told he had brothers after he was born, but never heard of Christ having sisters.
 

JohnPaul

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They did not have a normal marriage

the lower good of sex (holy in itself) is sacrificed for the higher good of mans eternal salvation!

lk 1:34 no sex ever
I hate to talk about things of sexual nature especially when referring to the Blessed Mother, but I don't think it would have been a sin for Mary and Joseph to have normal husband and wife relations after our Savior's birth.

It's not like God sent down an Angel and told both of them to never have normal husband and wife relations after the birth of Jesus.
 

Mungo

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I hate to talk about things of sexual nature especially when referring to the Blessed Mother, but I don't think it would have been a sin for Mary and Joseph to have normal husband and wife relations after our Savior's birth.

It's not like God sent down an Angel and told both of them to never have normal husband and wife relations after the birth of Jesus.

See post #47
 

Ronald Nolette

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Let me give you an alternative understanding of the exchange between Mary and Gabriel, particularly examining the two statements
a. "behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son"
b. "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

1. Mary is married to Joseph. The translation of "espoused" (or “betrothed" or "engaged”) is poor. Jewish marriage of the time was in two stages. After the first stage (kiddushin) they are legally married, but later (usually a year) the second stage (nusuin) occurred; the bride entered the bridegroom’s house and the marriage was consummated.

In a normal marriage, during the first stage, the bride was not just hoping or expecting the second stage but was committed to it. She was committed to sexual intercourse and would have the expectation (or at least hope) that it would be followed by a child.

2. TGabriel tells her she will conceive - some unspecified time in the future. He does not say you have conceived but will conceive. He is pointing to the future but gives no timescale. This would normally be good news, especially a son, but would be assumed to follow on from the second stage of marriage.

3. But Mary asks a strange question. “How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” In normal circumstances this would a silly question, so this indicates that this is not a normal marriage; that she has no expectation of sexual relations with Joseph. Note that at this stage the angel has not told Mary she will conceive by the Holy Spirit not Joseph.

Her question therefore only makes sense if she intended not to consummate the marriage; if she had committed her life to the Lord as a virgin.

An analogy is with someone who does not smoke. If someone prophesied they would die of lung cancer they might say “How can this be since I do not smoke?” The implication is clearly that this condition of not smoking (and in Mary’s case her virginity) is expected to remain unchanged.

Note Mary says I have no relations with a man (present tense). But I contend she is referring to the future as well. The angel has focussed on the future and so Mary’s reply must address the future as well.

Take the example above: someone says you will die of lung cancer. You reply “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Obviously if I expect to start smoking I can expect the possibility of contracting lung cancer at some time in the future. My question of “How can this be since I do not smoke.” Only makes sense if I do not expect to start smoking in the future. The “I do not smoke” is therefore not only something for the present but looks to the future as well; it implies something about the continuance of my not smoking. So too with Mary. Her reply only makes sense if it implies she intends to continue not to have a sexual relationship.

This use of the present tense implying the future is used in other places in the New Testament.
Mt 26:18 I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.”

Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

The Protoevangelium of James (not scriptural) tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin.

Thus the exchange indicated that Mary has made a vow of perpetual virginity. A vow that Joseph accepted and was fulfilled.

Well saying someone will die of lung cancer and having an angel say the Holy Ghost will make you pregnant are two different things.

Your misunderstandings are as follows.

1. In phase 1 of a Jewish marriage- the betrothal phase was to be at least nine months to insure no funny business had taken place (fornication), so Mary's question would be normal and not unusual, though "married" she had not yet had sex.

As for you greek scholars- sorry but that pig don't fly.

Mary responded in the present active indicative which cannot be the future. If Mary was not to know a man- she would not have betrothed. to not have sex with a husband is a violation of the Mosaic Law!

Teh present active indicative is a simple statement of fact in the present. If a future is to be implied it would be the present active subjunctive or a future tense that designates I will not!

All Jewish children are dedicated to God, just like all Christian children are dedicated to God. Israel did not have vestal virgins. The hypothesis of girls making temple vestments and linens remains completely unsubstantiated by any writings of Judaism. Not even Jospehus writes on it.
 

Mungo

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Well saying someone will die of lung cancer and having an angel say the Holy Ghost will make you pregnant are two different things.
Obviously they are different in that one is about pregnancy and the other is about cancer.
But the point I was making about the language is the same for both

Moreover at the point in time we are discussing the angel did not tell Mary the Holy Ghost would make her pregnant, only that she would become pregnant at some unspecified time in the future.

Your misunderstandings are as follows.

1. In phase 1 of a Jewish marriage- the betrothal phase was to be at least nine months to insure no funny business had taken place (fornication), so Mary's question would be normal and not unusual, though "married" she had not yet had sex.

On the contrary, as I pointed out, at this stage she would normally be commited to a sexual relationship. Therefore the concept of becoming pregnant at some future time would normally be expected and Mary's question would be unusual.

As for you greek scholars- sorry but that pig don't fly.
You ignore Greek scholars? Are you a a Greek expert then?


Mary responded in the present active indicative which cannot be the future.
The example I gave (Mt 26:18) is exactly the same and which was referring to the future.
The two are the same and what is true for one can be true for the other.

If Mary was not to know a man- she would not have betrothed. to not have sex with a husband is a violation of the Mosaic Law!
Can you prove that?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Obviously they are different in that one is about pregnancy and the other is about cancer.
But the point I was making about the language is the same for both

But it is not! when one goes back to what was inspired by god to be written, it shows a far different picture than what you hypothesize.

On the contrary, as I pointed out, at this stage she would normally be commited to a sexual relationship. Therefore the concept of becoming pregnant at some future time would normally be expected and Mary's question would be unusual.

Wrong. In a betrothal though married there is no sex. They are committed to having a sexual relationship in the future. to make a modern picture. It is like the traditional engagement. In the engagement,a couple has pledged to marry. Teh engagement is the time to prepare oneself for marriage and to see if they is any reason why they should not marry. With the Jewish culture it was far more stronger.

and for all people of God- one is not married until one has consummated the marriage with intercourse (two becoming one flesh as Paul said). A ceremony only authorizes one to be married biblically. Even in the RCC church they have a provision for anulment (the marriage never took place) if one refuses sex with their spouse.

You ignore Greek scholars? Are you a a Greek expert then?

Well I only had on eyear of Greek, but I can cite you multiple Greek scholars with PHD's in the language who trash what these "scholars" said. And honestly, anyone with a standard greek parsing guide and word study tool, can show why they are wrong.

The example I gave (Mt 26:18) is exactly the same and which was referring to the future.
The two are the same and what is true for one can be true for the other.

Yes they are both in the present active indicative, but they are not the same and here is why:

In Matt. 26 thew word "will" is there which changes the tense. It is still in the present because the action os focused on making the statement. teh statement is present active and the intent is to keep by the insertion of "will"

If Mary told Gabriel " How can this be seeing as I WILL NOT know a man, I would agree with you and this discussion would never had taken place! But she didn't and her meaning is different than the meaning of Matt. 26. The focus of Martt. 26b is "The master saith which is" which is the main verb (saith also PAI)_ so the action of saith will also be PAI if it is to be carried out immediately, which it began to be. I don't remember all the scholarly way of saying that, but if I can find that mundane wording, I shall gladly post it.

Mary made 2 seperate statments. One a questiopn and one a simple statement.

Matt 28 is one compound stement.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Mungo

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But it is not! when one goes back to what was inspired by god to be written, it shows a far different picture than what you hypothesize.
No it isn't; the linguisitic principle is the same.


Wrong. In a betrothal though married there is no sex.
I didn't suggest there was.

They are committed to having a sexual relationship in the future.
As I said that would normally be the case.

to make a modern picture. It is like the traditional engagement. In the engagement,a couple has pledged to marry. Teh engagement is the time to prepare oneself for marriage and to see if they is any reason why they should not marry. With the Jewish culture it was far more stronger.

and for all people of God- one is not married until one has consummated the marriage with intercourse (two becoming one flesh as Paul said). A ceremony only authorizes one to be married biblically. Even in the RCC church they have a provision for anulment (the marriage never took place) if one refuses sex with their spouse.

They were legally married. That is why Joseph is described as her husband and thought to divorce her. (Mt 1:19)

And Mary is not refusing sex. Joseph is accepting her vow of virginity.


Well I only had on eyear of Greek, but I can cite you multiple Greek scholars with PHD's in the language who trash what these "scholars" said. And honestly, anyone with a standard greek parsing guide and word study tool, can show why they are wrong.

Yes they are both in the present active indicative, but they are not the same and here is why:

In Matt. 26 thew word "will" is there which changes the tense. It is still in the present because the action os focused on making the statement. teh statement is present active and the intent is to keep by the insertion of "will"

If Mary told Gabriel " How can this be seeing as I WILL NOT know a man, I would agree with you and this discussion would never had taken place! But she didn't and her meaning is different than the meaning of Matt. 26. The focus of Martt. 26b is "The master saith which is" which is the main verb (saith also PAI)_ so the action of saith will also be PAI if it is to be carried out immediately, which it began to be. I don't remember all the scholarly way of saying that, but if I can find that mundane wording, I shall gladly post it.

Mary made 2 seperate statments. One a questiopn and one a simple statement.

Matt 28 is one compound stement.
1year of Greek and you think you know it all.
This is what Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote in his book The Virgin Birth of Christ "This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know", could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present. (my emphasis)
 

Mungo

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With biblical words? No ! with teh fact Mary was a good jewish girl and Jospeh a good Jewish boy? Yes! If they never had sex, they were never married, they stayed in the betrothal stage. They never became one flesh which is the definition of Marriage as declared by God in Gen. 1&2.

The Jewish Marriage Ceremony - "According to the Laws of Moses and Israel": Ke’ dat Moshe Ve’ Yisrael: - Marriage (chabad.org)

So you admit that what you said "to not have sex with a husband is a violation of the Mosaic Law!" was false.

Moreover the site you quote does not say that sex is compulsory after the second stage.
 
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