Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!

[theefaith]

Rev. 12:17 – this verse proves the meaning of John 19:26. The “woman’s” (Mary’s) offspring are those who follow Jesus. She is our Mother and we are her offspring in Jesus Christ. The master plan of God’s covenant love for us is family. But we cannot be a complete family with the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Christ without the Motherhood of Mary.

John 2:3 – this is a very signifcant verse in Scripture. As our mother, Mary tells all of us to do whatever Jesus tells us. Further, Mary’s intercession at the marriage feast in Cana triggers Jesus’ ministry and a foreshadowing of the Eucharistic celebration of the Lamb. This celebration unites all believers into one famiy through the marriage of divinity and humanity.

John 2:7 – Jesus allows His mother to intercede for the people on His behalf, and responds to His mother’s request by ordering the servants to fill the jars with water.

Psalm 45:9 – the psalmist teaches that the Queen stands at the right hand of God. The role of the Queen is important in God’s kingdom. Mary the Queen of heaven is at the right hand of the Son of God.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 – in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 – in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 – in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 – the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 – here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 – the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

IV. Mary is Ever Virgin

Exodus 13:2,12 – Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 – under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 – Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 – Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 – the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 – in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 – we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 – it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 – the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 – Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 – Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 – James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 – James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.

V. Jesus’ “Brothers” (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

Luke 1:36 – Elizabeth is Mary’s kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as “cousin,” but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin.”

Luke 22:32 – Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren.” In this case, we clearly see Jesus using “brethren” to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

Acts 1:12-15 – the gathering of Jesus’ “brothers” amounts to about 120. That is a lot of “brothers.” Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 – these are some of many other examples where “brethren” does not mean blood relations.

Rom. 9:3 – Paul uses “brethren” and “kinsmen” interchangeably. “Brothers” of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

Gen. 11:26-28 – Lot is Abraham’s nephew (“anepsios”) / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 – Lot is still called Abraham’s brother (adelphos”) . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is “anepsios,” Scripture also uses “adelphos” to describe a cousin.

Gen. 29:15 – Laban calls Jacob is “brother” even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -“brethren” means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for “cousin.”

2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 – here we see that “brethren” can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

2 Kings 10:13-14 – King Ahaziah’s 42 “brethren” were really his kinsmen.

1 Chron. 23:21-22 – Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren” who were really their cousins.

Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 – these are more examples of “brothers” meaning “cousins” or “kinsmen.”

Tobit 5:11 – Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him “brother.”

Amos 1: 9 – brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).

VI. Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 – Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 – Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 – Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 – Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 – when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 – we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 – we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 – Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

 

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VII. Mary’s Coronation in Heaven

2 Tim 4:8 – Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 – those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 – when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 – Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 – we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

VIII. Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her “not until”)

Matt. 1:25 – this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus. Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”:

Matt. 28:29 – I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

Luke 1:80 – John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

Luke 2:37 – Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

Luke 20:43 – Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

1 Tim. 4:13 – “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 – the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.

Gen. 28:15 – the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 – but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 – Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 – not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

IX. Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)

Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).

Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).

Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.

Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.

Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.

Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”

Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.

Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.

Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.

Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.

X. Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 – when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 – Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 – finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 5th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Luke 11:28 – when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 – also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 – finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

John 2:4 – this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.

Luke 8:28 – the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him.

John 2:4; 19:26 – when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. Mary is the Mother of God

“After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God in the fullness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead.” Alexander of Alexandria, Epistle to Alexander, 12 (A.D. 324).

 

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“Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, X:19 (c. A.D. 350).

“And the Angel on his appearance, himself confesses that he has been sent by his Lord; as Gabriel confessed in the case of Zacharias, and also in the case of Mary, bearer of God.” Athanasius, Orations III, 14(A.D. 362).

“Just as, in the age of Mary the mother of God, he who had reigned from Adam to her time found, when he came to her and dashed his forces against the fruit of her virginity as against a rock, that he was shattered to pieces upon her, so in every soul which passes through this life in the flesh under the protection of virginity, the strength of death is in a manner broken and annulled, for he does not find the places upon which he may fix his sting.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 14 (A.D. 370).

“He reshaped man to perfection in Himself, from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit.” Epiphanius, The man well-anchored, 75 (A.D. 374).

“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?” Ambrose, Virginity, II:6 (c. A.D. 378).

“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.” Gregory of Nazianzus, To Cledonius, 101 (A.D. 382).

“To the question: ‘Is Mary the bearer of Man, or the bearer of God?’ we must answer: ‘Of Both.'” Theodore of Mopsuestia, The Incarnation, 15 (ante A.D. 428).

“And so you say, O heretic, whoever you may be, who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not to be called Theotocos, i.e., Mother of God, but Christotocos, i.e., only the Mother of Christ, not of God. For no one, you say, brings forth what is anterior in time. And of this utterly foolish argument whereby you think that the birth of God can be understood by carnal minds, and fancy that the mystery of His Majesty can be accounted for by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, say something later on. In the meanwhile we will now prove by Divine testimonies that Christ is God, and that Mary is the Mother of God.” John Cassian, The Incarnation of Christ, II:2 (A.D. 430).

“But since the Holy Virgin brought forth after the flesh God personally united to the flesh, for this reason we say of her that she is Theotokos, not as though the nature of the Word had its beginning of being from the flesh, for he was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God…but, as we said before, because having personally united man’s nature to himself…” Cyril of Alexandria, To Nestorius, Epistle 17:11 (A.D. 430).

“If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, ‘The Word was made flesh’: let him be anathema.” Council of Ephesus, Anathemas Against Nestorius, I (A.D. 430).

“For by the singular gift of Him who is our Lord and God, and withal, her own son, she is to be confessed most truly and most blessedly–The mother of God ‘Theotocos,’ but not in the sense in which it is imagined by a certain impious heresy which maintains, that she is to be called the Mother of God for no other reason than because she gave birth to that man who afterwards became God, just as we speak of a woman as the mother of a priest, or the mother of a bishop, meaning that she was such, not by giving birth to one already a priest or a bishop, but by giving birth to one who afterwards became a priest or a bishop. Not thus, I say, was the holy Mary ‘Theotocos,’ the mother of God, but rather, as was said before, because in her sacred womb was wrought that most sacred mystery whereby, on account of the singular and unique unity of Person, as the Word in flesh is flesh, so Man in God is God.” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 15 (A.D. 434).

“So then He was both in all things and above all things and also dwelt in the womb of the holy Mother of God, but in it by the energy of the incarnation.” John Damascene, Source of Knowledge, III:7 (A.D. 743).

II. Mary’s Immaculate Conception

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).

 

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III. Mary is Ever-virgin

“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ’s parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,’ and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;’ who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,–that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age.” Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).

“For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,’ and not Behold you have this son also,’ then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.’ Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.’ What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?” Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).

“And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.’ John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“[T]he Son of God…was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit…” Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374).

“The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin” Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).

“Her virginity also itself was on this account more pleasing and accepted, in that it was not that Christ being conceived in her, rescued it beforehand from a husband who would violate it, Himself to preserve it; but, before He was conceived, chose it, already dedicated to God, as that from which to be born. This is shown by the words which Mary spake in answer to the Angel announcing to her conception; How,’ saith she, shall this be, seeing I know not a man?’ Which assuredly she would not say, unless she had before vowed herself unto God as a virgin. But, because the habits of the Israelites as yet refused this, she was espoused to a just man, who would not take from her by violence, but rather guard against violent persons, what she had already vowed. Although, even if she had said this only, How shall this take place ?’ and had not added, seeing I know not a man,’ certainly she would not have asked, how, being a female, she should give birth to her promised Son, if she had married with purpose of sexual intercourse. She might have been bidden also to continue a virgin, that in her by fitting miracle the Son of God should receive the form of a servant, but, being to be a pattern to holy virgins, lest it should be thought that she alone needed to be a virgin, who had obtained to conceive a child even without sexual intercourse, she dedicated her virginity to God, when as yet she knew not what she should conceive, in order that the imitation of a heavenly life in an earthly and mortal body should take place of vow, not of command; through love of choosing, not through necessity of doing service. Thus Christ by being born of a virgin, who, before she knew Who was to be born of her, had determined to continue a virgin, chose rather to approve, than to command, holy virginity. And thus, even in the female herself, in whom He took the form of a servant, He willed that virginity should be free.” Augustine, Of Holy Virginity, 4 (A.D. 401).

“Where are they who think that the Virgin’s conception and giving birth to her child are to be likened to those of other woman? For, this latter case is one of the earth, and the Virgin’s is one from heaven. The one case is a case of divine power; the other of human weakness. The one case occurs in a body subject to passion; the other in the tranquility of the divine Spirit and peace of the human body. The blood was still, and the flesh astonished; her members were put at rest, and her entire womb was quiescent during the visit of the Holy One, until the Author of flesh could take on His garment of flesh, and until He, who was not merely to restore the earth to man but also to give him heaven, could become a heavenly Man. The virgin conceives, the Virgin brings forth her child, and she remains a virgin.” Peter Chrysoslogus, Sermon 117, (A.D. 432).

“And by a new nativity He was begotten, conceived by a Virgin, born of a Virgin, without paternal desire, without injury to the mother’s chastity: because such a birth as knew no taint of human flesh, became One who was to be the Saviour of men, while it possessed in itself the nature of human substance. For when God was born in the flesh, God Himself was the Father, as the archangel witnessed to the Blessed Virgin Mary: because the Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee: and therefore, that which shall be born of thee shall be called holy, the Son of God.’ The origin is different but the nature like: not by intercourse with man but by the power of God was it brought about: for a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bare, and a Virgin she remained.” Pope Leo the Great (regn. A.D. 440-461), On the Feast of the Nativity, Sermon 22:2 (ante A.D. 461).

“The ever-virgin One thus remains even after the birth still virgin, having never at any time up till death consorted with a man. For although it is written, And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born Son, yet note that he who is first-begotten is first-born even if he is only-begotten. For the word first-born’ means that he was born first but does not at all suggest the birth of others. And the word till’ signifies the limit of the appointed time but does not exclude the time thereafter. For the Lord says, And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world, not meaning thereby that He will be separated from us after the completion of the age. The divine apostle, indeed, says, And so shall we ever be with the Lord, meaning after the general resurrection.” John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith, 4:14 (A.D. 743).

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace who is the throne of divine grace!

It would seem you've forgotten my prior posts in the 'Biblical Mary' thread regarding taking scripture out of context and misapplying it. Once again, trying to include Mary in Revelation 12 and Hebrews 4 is completely out of the context of the passages. Here's the corresponding excerpts from my posts:

My second concern is tying ('manufactured') grace in Luke 1:28 to grace in Hebrews 4:16. The issue is taking a verse out of context. Read the preceding verses of Hebrews to get the context of verse 16 -

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (KJV)

It's clear that the grace in verse 16 speaks of Jesus IS the throne of grace...no reference whatsoever to Mary.

Regarding Revelation 12:1 - I'll repeat that the woman all through Revelation refers to Israel, NOT Mary. Otherwise, when and how did Mary become clothed by the sun, the moon under her feet, and 12 crowns? I can't find anywhere in scripture OR the Catechism that states Mary has any of these attributes! Perhaps you could enlighten us? And the reference in 12:2 that she is being with child? Israel will become the promised KINGDOM after the tribulation. Her being 'with child' is an indication of the coming Messiah coming from heaven (Zechariah 14:4) and His KINGDOM.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (KJV)

And Hebrews 4:16 - Apparently you've confused a letter to Israel and something about Mary. Note that 'fathers' below indicates those born in the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, ie, Jews only.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (KJV)

Trying to replace Jesus in Hebrews 4:14-16 with Mary is completely wrong. All of Hebrews is written to show the unbelieving people of Israel that Jesus is the promised Messiah, eg, the Christ.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (KJV)

Hopefully, the above will jog your memory...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No evidence provided for that claim

Wrong the verse itself is the proof. Part A proves He had no sex with Mary before Jesus birth. YOu muddled the definition of until to try to defend a false doctrine.

PREPOSITION

1. up to (the point in time or the event mentioned).
   "the kidnappers have given us until October 11th to deliver the documents" ·
   till · up to · up till · up until · as late as · up to the time of/that ·
   till · up till · up until · up to the time of/that · until such time as
   CONJUNCTION up to the point in time or the event mentioned.
   1. "you don't know what you can achieve until you try"
      synonyms:
      till · up till · up until · up to the time of/that · until such time as

In Matthew 1 until is a conjunction.

No it doesn't show what you say. You infer that but the text does not say it. Until does not show that action ceased or changed. It just shows that the time prior to the until point is important.

Yeah it does- see above. an Action changed at teh event of Jesus birth. It is up to you to prove that it did not. Until always implies a change of some sort and in Matt. 1:25 the change is defined as sexual activity. You are just wrong grammatically. You can't even find real scholars who give more than just opinions.

The passage is to be read for what it says not for what it doesn't say as you are trying to do.

The passage simply says Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born. anyone without an agenda would read that as after Jesus was born- Joseph had sex- that is what the conjunction "until" explicitly tells us.

YOu wrote of Mary's response to Gabriel as interesting and etc.. well if God wanted to make it clear that they remained celibate, why inject this verse at all that all people without an agenda would read as Mary got sex from hubby after Jesus. Remember I was a good little Catholic boy.

ccording you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

That is what until almost always shows! It shows an action is happening to a point! That is what until is all about it puts a time limit on an action! It is up to you to PROVE- not cite people making assumptions and opinions that grammar allows a PAI verb with the conj. "until" means the action remains the same without any modifier.

Exactly but according you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

Unless there is a modifier in the passage or the next or previous passages- Until always invokes a change!

Here is a free grammar lesson:

Subordinating Conjunctions
Subordinating conjunctions join independent and dependent clauses. A subordinating conjunction can signal a cause-and-effect relationship, a contrast, or some other kind of relationship between the clauses. Common subordinating conjunctions are because, since, as, although, though, while, and whereas. Sometimes an adverb, such as until, after, or before can function as a conjunction.



I can stay out until the clock strikes twelve.


Here, the adverb until functions as a subordinating conjunction to connect two ideas: I can stay out (the independent clause) and the clock strikes twelve (the dependent clause). The independent clause could stand alone as a sentence; the dependent clause depends on the independent clause to make sense.

The subordinating conjunction doesn’t need to go in the middle of the sentence. It has to be part of the dependent clause, but the dependent clause can come before the independent clause.

Now Jospeh not having sex is the independent clause which can stand on its own as a complete sentence
She gave birth to her firstborn- is the dependent clause connected by until.

Wow instead of talking bible we have to conduct 2nd and 3rd grade grammar lessons.

Neither at that time nor now does anyone know where Moses was buried. But according you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

Except the passage has a limiting modifier (to this day) so when read it means that Moses grave was unknown up to the day of the writing. It says nothing about the future possibilities.

Once again a free simple grammar lesson.

According to Daniel his kingdom does last for ever:

I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Note how I provide evidence for what scripture says rather than just claim it. You could learn something from that.

Well as we are talking about whether Mary ever had sex with Joseph, there is but a limited amount of Gods Word we have and need.

but as to this verse. If this is the only verse that speaks of the Kingdom Jesus was given, which you even wrote in bold. Yes His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. But there are other verses that speak of teh everlasting kingdom, and we find out that the kingdom Jesus was given was part of the Fathers kingdom which is everlasting. And when Jesus conquers death He hands the kingdom (which is everlasting) back to His Father and sits back at His Fathers right hand.

Here let me post this verse for you a second time! All sarcasm intended.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Notice? its easy to see. Verse 25 has a modifying conjuntion!!!!!!! UNTIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once Jesus conquers the last enemy He turns it all back to Papa!

When you follow th erules of Grammar God made so we can communicate coherently- it really is that simple!!!!

According you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

Then as you say I am wrong and make that charge- show me a conclusive passage that has "unitl" "till" or th elike that shows an action does not change without a modifying clause. Don't just make a claim- back it up with facts!

Then go back and look at all them verses you cited to tryt o prove me wrong and see ho wmany of the "until" part is the subordinate clause dependent on the independent clause.

If God intended for us to understand that Joseph never had sex with Mary, Matt. 1:25 would simply look like this:

Matthew 1:23-25
King James Version

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not.

That weould be absolute and we wouldn't even debate! But then God (that nasty old man) decided to modify the "knew her not".

All you do is rely on extrabiblical writings, suggestions, assertions and unproven hypotheses to defend something the bible says you are simply wrong on. And the fact you try to use vague grammatic tricks that are only half truths, shows you have no foundation.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

IX. Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)

Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.

Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.

Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”

I find it interesting your implication that because Jesus was without sin (after all, He WAS 100% God and 100% human) therefore the same Godly attribute is magically extended to Mary. Good try, but not possible. And no, God did NOT spare Mary from the 'original sin' of eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Adam and Eve were BOTH guilty and did eat. The entire population of the earth are descendants of Adam and Eve, so Mary was in no way 'exempted' from the 'original sin'. Also, the diety of GOD cannot be passed along by humans, including by the human side of Jesus. God is God. Humans are NOT and CANNOT be/become God or deity.

Also, I don't have a Greek dictionary and when I let Google do it for me, (English to Greek), it comes up with 6-7 Greek words to mean 'all'. Unfortunately, those words all use Greek symbols/letters, which I have no clue what they mean. However, Strongs' Concordance for 'all' as used in Romans 3:23 (G3956) shows it as the word: 'pas' with the meanings of 'including all forms of declension, apparently a primary word: all, any, every, the whole,' etc. It's used 1238 times in the KJV according to Strongs. (By the way, from my high school Latin days, 'declensions' are the forms of a verb such as 'amo' - I love, you love, we love, he (she)(it) loves, we love, they love if I recall correctly.

And, using the 'Greek to English' feature of Google, typing in 'pantes' comes up with 'everyone'. But Paul used a more inclusive word 'pas' to show there are no exclusions whatsoever.

And to solidify that Jesus was without sin:
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (KJV)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

that means she did not have sex with Joseph before he was born, it says nothing about what happened after that


Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

See my detaqiled responses to MUngo to show you why though that is a possibility, you are simply wrong.

Until is a adverbial conjunction in Matt. 1:25 which means an action occured, then a change took place based on the dependent clause.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
King James Version

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Notice? its easy to see. Verse 25 has a modifying conjuntion!!!!!!! UNTIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once Jesus conquers the last enemy He turns it all back to Papa!

While reading Ronald Nolettes' post, I couldn't help but think of my prior post regarding the use of 'until' and more so, Psalm 110 -

Psalm 110:1-7 (KJV)
1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

'Until' in verse 1 clearly shows it will not occur before some event occurs. After that, everything changes.

Even the Google dictionary defines 'until' with the following description:

preposition: until
up to (the point in time or the event mentioned)
conjunction: until
up to the point in time or the event mentioned.

There's neither indication nor implication that 'until' has any meaning or effect after the 'point in time' has occurred.

 

[amigo de christo]

Biblical Mary:

Biblical Mary, mother of God, ever Virgin, sinless, mother of our salvation!

Mother of God Lk 1:43

Immaculate conception (sinless) gen 3:15 enmity or total war none of satans works are found in Mary!
Also Lk 1:28 full of grace lk 1:49 great things plural (immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus) Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun. Immaculate purity

Lk 1:30 found favor with God (the salvation lost by Adam) mother of our salvation Lk 2:30 and cos she consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38

Perpetual Virgin Isa 7:14 matt 1:21
Lk 1:31-34

Spiritual Mother Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Mother of the creator is mother of all creation!

Mother of the Redeemer is the mother of all the redeemed!

Mother of our Savior is the mother of all those who obtain salvation!

Here , let me remind you of what mary herself once said . What my SON says YOU DO .
STOP POINTING TO YOUR DOCTRINE and start POINTING TO JESUS .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

only God may be lawfully worshiped and adored!

So then why does the "Holy Roman Catholic Church Corp." continue to WORSHIP, Adore, and amplify their "Blessed Virgin's" role in their organization??? The Roman church continues to WORSHIP their "Blessed Virgin", and continues to LIE about doing it.

I was safe in my morther's arms. Her name was Ida Mary Maregaret Carabbio. Mary was Jesus' Mom. That about covers it.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Time to shut this thread down for excessively long posts which no member tends to read and it clutters up the topic and does not edify anyone.
See Rule Amendment below..

Rule amendment:
No flooding the forum. If your post stretches over multiple screens it may be too long. Needing to sift through an essay about someone's theology to figure out their point hinders discussion. Excessively long or successive posts may be subject to deletion at the moderator's discretion. This rule does not apply to blogs.