Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!

[Marvelloustime]

I have seen more wisdom in animals than in some men . Even animals know what sex they are .
So yeah , believe me it aint just cows .

That’s exactly why everyone needs to read the Bibles for themselves and forget man-made tradition.

 

[amigo de christo]

That’s exactly why everyone needs to read the Bibles for themselves and forget man-made tradition.

Right indeed sister . brother is BC not PC . bibically correct not politically correct . but that is why we wont be tolerated in this ever
fast growing all inclusive world . So be it . I got Christ , the end of a lamb is good . that is all i need to know and follow and teach .

 

[Mungo]

That’s exactly why everyone needs to read the Bibles for themselves and forget man-made tradition.

And make up their own religions as Protestants do?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

mare you saying Christ is not king
Or that Mary is not his mother?

Chuckle!!!!

Chuist IS King, of course, and Mary is DEFINITLY his Mother.

But of course THAT has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with all the satanic foolishness that Roman Catholicism has inflicted on her, the false titles, and the worship they give her (yeah I know you "don't worship Mary" while you're worshipping her). According to Jesus (remember him??) one prays to FATHER in Jesus' name - PERIOD. One doesn't pray to Mary, or St. Ignatious, or, or, to get them to arm-twist Jesus into doing what they want.

That's an absolute degradation of Jesus' Love, Wisdom, and infinite CARE that He has for us TO EVEN SUGGEST that a "human" needs to advise Him what would be Best!!!!!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've already answered that in post #63. But here it is again:
Regarding the "until "clause.
1. It actually supports my claim that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In ancient Judaism a couple would consummate the marriage on their wedding night (nisuin). It was the climax of the wedding celebration taking place in the "bridal chamber" (see MT 25:1-13). So Matthew is making the point that they did not consummate the marriage. This supports the idea that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.

Not according to Gods Word. All it does according to gods Word is show that Joseph did not have sex with His wife until after Jesus was born( and a safe assumption knowing they were both good Jews until after the days of Mary's purification according to the law)​

2. Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.
The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time.

YOu really are desperate aren't you?

ll heos by itself yes- but when used in a sentence like it is in gods inspired word in Matt. 1:25 it shows that something took place until something else happened. What took place ( a definite action) was Joseph not performing intercourse with his wife. The until shows when the first action ceased or changed. If you really are belieivng what you are writing , you need to go back to grammar school vocabulary. what was significant about teh point is that jesus was born and that ended the action of th efirst part. ERGO Joseph has sex. REally you argue 1st grade grammar?

That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities. (note my emboldening)

ll see, that is where you and your Catholic scholars need to prove that the normative, usual and common understanding of that passage is to be read differently. And as gods Word doesn't do that, you are stuck with like your scholars with assumption and we "feel" ( good for emotions horrid for grammar)

Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death? NO

It is sad that you do not know how to read passages that have a shade of difference. But go on the street and ask. I bet you find over 99% of people will tell you that simply means she was barren. See language and conversations do assume you have th emost basic knowledge of things- Like people don't have kids after death. that is known as an understood fact.

“There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
Does that imply she got married at the age of 84? NO

Really????? you mean you can't even read straight? This gives us no information what happened to her at age 84. It could imply she got remarried, it could imply she died. When the text doesn't say, you shouldn't either, when one does that is known as presumptive arrogance.

Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO

Weell leaving this verse standing apart without context, it could mean that, but given th efull context of Jesus life with His apostles we know that He is reminding them that though He is leaving He will still be with Him. do you seriously not know these things or are just grasping at straws. We have no other context for Mary's sex life except she is declared to have at least 6 ther children and Joseph refrained from sex with Mary until after jesus was born.

What you are doing is muddying the waters by posting by posting verses out of context, do not refer to the passage and give no support to the topic of the passage of Martt. 1;25. Someone in fifth grade can show what you are triyng to imply is foolish.

but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial (Deut 34:6)
Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

of course, that is exactly what the passage says. Sorry you can't read simple sentences.

For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

If you kept reading you would have found that the answer is yes! He gives the kingdom back to His Father and resumes sitting at His right hand as Prince heir. As God teh Father is eternal, Jesu swill never become King of Eternity- that is th eFather alone.

Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching. (1Tim 4:13)
After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

you really think I don't know what Paul is saying. Once again teh writer assumes the reader has a basic knowledge. But Paul is saying that in his (Pauls) absence, He wants Timothy to be diligent to all that stuff.


Really this defense of yours is bordering on the stupid.

We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
Has creation stopped groaning? NO

except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come. (Rev 2:25)
Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations. (Rev 2:26)
Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO

I lumped these together for the answer is the same.

If one just read that verse and made a decision based on just those verses alone without any other information to say different or imply different- yes you could form that decision. But keeping them in their letters written and understanding the basics of Grammar we know what teh authors are saying and only the most uneducated would reach the decisions you post and say no to.

your task is still the same. In stead of finding verses that imply something without using any context, you need to prove that teh basic reading of Matt. 1:25 means they didn't have sex at all. Make the implications you are getting at with all the verses you posted apply specifically to th everse we are discussing. Get out of generalities and get to the specific!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

you can be married and sacrifice a lower good such as sex, (holy in itself) to bring our salvation a greater good

Absolute garbage. Joseph sacrificed NOTHING, and WAS Mary's husband in every sense. Mary's "Sinlessness, Her "Immaculate Conception", her "Perpetual virginity", and her "Assumption" are all totally baseless Roman Catholic LIES.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

mother does not say anything about what happened after this

Yeah it does! It says Joseph di dnot have sex with Mary , until after jesus was born! Unless of course you need a refresher course in basic reading skills.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

exactly . IT DONT .
blanket statements that cannot prove a word they say . I see this all the time . I See it even within the protestant realm .

Sad. Using generalized arguments to try to prove that it becomes arule and must apply to Matt. 1:25 is disingenuous

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I gave you loads of evidence for that.
You just don't want to accept the truth.
That is your loss.

I missed the biblical references. Can you repost them?

 

[Mungo]

I missed the biblical references. Can you repost them?

Evidence in posts #47 & #63

 

[Mungo]

Not according to Gods Word. All it does according to gods Word is show that Joseph did not have sex with His wife until after Jesus was born( and a safe assumption knowing they were both good Jews until after the days of Mary's purification according to the law)​

​

No evidence provided for that claim

YOu really are desperate aren't you?

ll heos by itself yes- but when used in a sentence like it is in gods inspired word in Matt. 1:25 it shows that something took place until something else happened. What took place ( a definite action) was Joseph not performing intercourse with his wife. The until shows when the first action ceased or changed. If you really are belieivng what you are writing , you need to go back to grammar school vocabulary. what was significant about teh point is that jesus was born and that ended the action of th efirst part. ERGO Joseph has sex. REally you argue 1st grade grammar?

No it doesn't show what you say. You infer that but the text does not say it. Until does not show that action ceased or changed. It just shows that the time prior to the until point is important.

ll see, that is where you and your Catholic scholars need to prove that the normative, usual and common understanding of that passage is to be read differently. And as gods Word doesn't do that, you are stuck with like your scholars with assumption and we "feel" ( good for emotions horrid for grammar)

The passage is to be read for what it says not for what it doesn't say as you are trying to do.

It is sad that you do not know how to read passages that have a shade of difference. But go on the street and ask. I bet you find over 99% of people will tell you that simply means she was barren. See language and conversations do assume you have th emost basic knowledge of things- Like people don't have kids after death. that is known as an understood fact.

According to you the action must change. Therefore it must mean that she had children after he death. Of course people don't have kids after they are dead. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

Really????? you mean you can't even read straight? This gives us no information what happened to her at age 84. It could imply she got remarried, it could imply she died. When the text doesn't say, you shouldn't either, when one does that is known as presumptive arrogance.

Exactly but according you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

Weell leaving this verse standing apart without context, it could mean that, but given th efull context of Jesus life with His apostles we know that He is reminding them that though He is leaving He will still be with Him. do you seriously not know these things or are just grasping at straws. We have no other context for Mary's sex life except she is declared to have at least 6 ther children and Joseph refrained from sex with Mary until after jesus was born.

What you are doing is muddying the waters by posting by posting verses out of context, do not refer to the passage and give no support to the topic of the passage of Martt. 1;25. Someone in fifth grade can show what you are triyng to imply is foolish.

According you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

of course, that is exactly what the passage says. Sorry you can't read simple sentences

Neither at that time nor now does anyone know where Moses was buried. But according you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

If you kept reading you would have found that the answer is yes! He gives the kingdom back to His Father and resumes sitting at His right hand as Prince heir. As God teh Father is eternal, Jesu swill never become King of Eternity- that is th eFather alone.

According to Daniel his kingdom does last for ever:

I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Note how I provide evidence for what scripture says rather than just claim it. You could learn something from that.

you really think I don't know what Paul is saying. Once again teh writer assumes the reader has a basic knowledge. But Paul is saying that in his (Pauls) absence, He wants Timothy to be diligent to all that stuff.

Really this defense of yours is bordering on the stupid.

According you the action must change. Which proves that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

I lumped these together for the answer is the same.

If one just read that verse and made a decision based on just those verses alone without any other information to say different or imply different- yes you could form that decision. But keeping them in their letters written and understanding the basics of Grammar we know what teh authors are saying and only the most uneducated would reach the decisions you post and say no to.

your task is still the same. In stead of finding verses that imply something without using any context, you need to prove that teh basic reading of Matt. 1:25 means they didn't have sex at all. Make the implications you are getting at with all the verses you posted apply specifically to th everse we are discussing. Get out of generalities and get to the specific!

According you the action must change. They all prove that your assumption that the action always changes is wrong

 

[theefaith]

exactly . IT DONT .
blanket statements that cannot prove a word they say . I see this all the time . I See it even within the protestant realm .

celebicy is a discipline falls in the authority of the church to bind matt 16:18-19 & 18:18

 

[theefaith]

Worship GOD , cease from mens traditions

no one said to worship any but God alone! We agree! Yahoo!

 

[theefaith]

Stop bowing before the CC and Kneel and bow before Christ . yall turned mary into an idol .
Just like israel after the flesh turned the rod of the golden serpent into an idol .
Stop heeding that church and its traditions . THEY turned everything good into an idol .
MARY IS BLESSED , but they turned it into an idol . WORSHIP GOD and not men .

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!


Proving That Mary is not a goddess and this tittle does not apply to Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amounts women.

How can a goddess be full of grace?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with a goddess?
The lord is with thee!

How can a goddess be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a goddess be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could a goddess be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

How could a goddess glorify God or have a savior?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could a goddess be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could a goddess be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could a goddess be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could a goddess be our spiritual mother?

Only a heretical fundamentalists brainwashing can say so!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

no one said to worship any but God alone! We agree! Yahoo!

CHuckle!!! Then why do you OPENLY, and OBVIOSLY Worship Mary, and the "Canonized Saints", and LIE about doing it???

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

They were legally married. That is why Joseph is described as her husband and thought to divorce her. (Mt 1:19)

And Mary is not refusing sex. Joseph is accepting her vow of virginity.

Interestingly, some of the Bible translations I have on my computer write that Mary said she was not married:

Luke 1:34 And Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no [intimacy with any man as a] husband? AMP (Classical)
Luke 1:34 Mary asked the angel, "How can this happen? I am not married!" (CEV)
Luke 1:34 Mary asked the angel, "How can this happen? I am not married!" (RSV)

If I recall, the CEV and RSV are/were translations approved by the Catholic Church. Considering 'those days' of 2000 years ago, it's reasonable to conclude that being a virgin is synonymous with being unmarried as premarital sex was condemned by being stoned to death per the Mosaic Law.

So, was 'betrothal' the same as 'married'? I don't know Jewish customs well enough to make a claim one way or another.

 

[theefaith]

Chuckle!!!!

Chuist IS King, of course, and Mary is DEFINITLY his Mother.

But of course THAT has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with all the satanic foolishness that Roman Catholicism has inflicted on her, the false titles, and the worship they give her (yeah I know you "don't worship Mary" while you're worshipping her). According to Jesus (remember him??) one prays to FATHER in Jesus' name - PERIOD. One doesn't pray to Mary, or St. Ignatious, or, or, to get them to arm-twist Jesus into doing what they want.

That's an absolute degradation of Jesus' Love, Wisdom, and infinite CARE that He has for us TO EVEN SUGGEST that a "human" needs to advise Him what would be Best!!!!!!

honor Thy father and mother

Jesus does why don’t you
Mary obtains all she asks

Mary is our spiritual mother

Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

 

[theefaith]

Chuckle!!!!

Chuist IS King, of course, and Mary is DEFINITLY his Mother.

But of course THAT has absolutely NOTHING TO DO with all the satanic foolishness that Roman Catholicism has inflicted on her, the false titles, and the worship they give her (yeah I know you "don't worship Mary" while you're worshipping her). According to Jesus (remember him??) one prays to FATHER in Jesus' name - PERIOD. One doesn't pray to Mary, or St. Ignatious, or, or, to get them to arm-twist Jesus into doing what they want.

That's an absolute degradation of Jesus' Love, Wisdom, and infinite CARE that He has for us TO EVEN SUGGEST that a "human" needs to advise Him what would be Best!!!!!!

anyone in the communion of saints can pray and intercede for each other
James 5:16 rev 5:8

 

[theefaith]

Old Testament type or example provided by God for our instruction!

Queen Esther

Queen Esther fair: est 2:7
Mary all fair: gen 3:15 Song of Solomon 4:12 Lk 1:28 rev 12:1

And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; est 2:17
Song of S. 4:2 love of God for Mary!
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
Lk 1:28 also Lk 1:30 1:42 1:45 1:48
Mary obtained grace and favor: Lk 1:28
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Esther merits the graces of the king for the people. Est
Mary merits the graces we need but don’t deserve. Lk 1:30
Mother is the mother of our savior and our salvation! Lk 2:30 matt 1:21

They prayed to Esther to intercede for them before the king. As Mary intercedes for Christians before God.

Queen Esther found favor with the king: est 2:17
Mary found favor with God: Lk 1:30

Queen Esther saves her people interceding with the king: est 8:17
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

Queen Esther receives half the kingdom!
Mary receives half the kingdom, Christ retains the kingdom of justice as just judge and Mary is the queen of grace & mercy! Hence the throne of grace is Mary’s throne! Heb 4:16
Depicted in genesis as the greater light that rules the day (those living in God’s will) and the lesser light that governs the night (those living in sin) Mary the mother of mercy and refuge of sinners!
Notice the sun is the source of all good and moon only reflects this goodness!
She directs all to Her divine son! Jn 2:5


Mary is created by God thru the immaculate conception worthy to receive grace, and the miraculous conception of the Holy Spirit, and the savior and our salvation!

Notice how Christ died for us!

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were not worthy to die for our own salvation!

The same applies to grace, we are not worthy to receive grace, so God made Mary by the immaculate conception worthy to receive all grace for us, and worthy to miraculously conceive of the Holy Spirit and to give birth to our savior and worthy to receive our salvation!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

God will not give grace to one who is not worthy or who cannot receive it, God will not give graces only to be lost or wasted but must be Efficacious!

All graces are merited by Christ (Jn 1:16-17 1 Jn 1:7) and given to men in the immaculate conception, (Lk 1:28 Lk 1:49 Heb 4:16 until we are able thru baptism (Jn 3:5) to receive them!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Mary had this faith for us, (Lk 1:45 )and became the mother of our salvation!
(Lk 2:30)

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Just as redemption is held in Christ so grace is held on Mary! Lk 1:28 full of grace Heb 4:16 the throne of grace Lk 1:30 found favor of our salvation

This applies to Mary not by nature but by the power and will of God!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen!
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And Jesus is the king of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints, so Mary is queen of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

The mother of any king is automatically queen and rules half the kingdom!
The queen mother!

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace who is the throne of divine grace!

 

[theefaith]

Absolute garbage. Joseph sacrificed NOTHING, and WAS Mary's husband in every sense. Mary's "Sinlessness, Her "Immaculate Conception", her "Perpetual virginity", and her "Assumption" are all totally baseless Roman Catholic LIES.

you forgot Mary the mother of God Lk 1:43