The Trinity

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Aunty Jane

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These central, doctrinal matters from Scripture are so vital.

(Anything else pales into insignificance, in the scheme of things....)
You are soooo right.....their significance cannot be underestimated, not only in the positive but also in the negative. If “the church” altered the very nature of God and misinformed its people about the relationship of the Father to his Son, and then asserted that the Holy Spirit is the third person of a three headed god, (trinities of gods are only found in paganism) when this was never taught in any passage of scripture as a direct statement, then deliberately passing on a lie and asserting that it is truth only by suggestion and inference, carries a weighty responsibility.

If one breaches the First Commandment, (Exodus 20:3) by putting other ‘gods’ in Jehovah’s place, they will answer to God for their error/delusion. God will not correct those who have no love for the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) And the truth is there plainly stated in scripture....the apostles believed in “one God the Father” and “one Lord Jesus Christ”. Two completely separate entities.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

No Holy Spirit is mentioned....no third party......the “us” mentioned there is all Christians.

If the Jews believed that their God was “one” (Deuteronomy 6:4) and Jesus and all the first Christians were Jewish.....then who told “Christians” centuries later that he was “three” and got them believing this travesty to the point where it formed the very foundation of all that they believed about God and his Christ? You can’t see the operation of the “weeds” that Jesus warned about? You should.....:(
 

GodsGrace

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Believing that Jesus is God is actually the gist of it. That because if He were just a human like us, then what would we have placed our Faith in, and thus our hope for Salvation? That is why it is a Salvation issue, because it directly involves one's Faith, i.e., what they believe in.
OK
Agreed.
But do you think a person needs to understand the Trinity, in an orthodox way, to be saved?
 

Aunty Jane

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I'd like to clarify why I don't believe that understanding the Trinity is a salvation issue.

It's really never stated as such.
Some have a difficult time understanding it but I think you and I have come to terms with it.
Some won't make the effort.

BUT, I do believe it's necessary to believe that Jesus is God.
GG, I know this was not directed to me, but I’d like to ask you, why you believe you needed to “come to terms” with the trinity not being a salvation issue? If it is the foundational doctrine of all of Christendom’s churches, then it matters a great deal.

If “the church” altered the very nature of God and misrepresented Jehovah’s relationship with his son, don’t you think that this is a salvation issue? If Jesus is NOT God...and the Holy Spirit is NOT God, then the First Commandment has been breached.....and no salvation is possible.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Believing that Jesus is God is actually the gist of it. That because if He were just a human like us, then what would we have placed our Faith in, and thus our hope for Salvation? That is why it is a Salvation issue, because it directly involves one's Faith, i.e., what they believe in.
Why did Jesus need to come as a human? Why the need to be born of a human woman and grow up in a poor Jewish family?

He was 100% human and died a human death.....but why? How does redemption work? Could he be God and pay for Adam’s sin? If you think so then they have no idea why Christ died.
 

GodsGrace

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You are soooo right.....their significance cannot be underestimated, not only in the positive but also in the negative. If “the church” altered the very nature of God and misinformed its people about the relationship of the Father to his Son, and then asserted that the Holy Spirit is the third person of a three headed god, (trinities of gods are only found in paganism) when this was never taught in any passage of scripture as a direct statement, then deliberately passing on a lie and asserting that it is truth only by suggestion and inference, carries a weighty responsibility.

If one breaches the First Commandment, (Exodus 20:3) by putting other ‘gods’ in Jehovah’s place, they will answer to God for their error/delusion. God will not correct those who have no love for the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) And the truth is there plainly stated in scripture....the apostles believed in “one God the Father” and “one Lord Jesus Christ”. Two completely separate entities.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
“For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

No Holy Spirit is mentioned....no third party......the “us” mentioned there is all Christians.

If the Jews believed that their God was “one” (Deuteronomy 6:4) and Jesus and all the first Christians were Jewish.....then who told “Christians” centuries later that he was “three” and got them believing this travesty to the point where it formed the very foundation of all that they believed about God and his Christ? You can’t see the operation of the “weeds” that Jesus warned about? You should.....:(
1 cor which you posted states that all things are THROUGH the Lord.
Who is this Lord?
Could it be the one in John 1?
The reason John wrote his gospel is to show that Jesus is God.
Can't you even trust John?
So if John wants to show how Jesus is God, the early Christian's had to come to terms with someone in whom they trusted.

This was John's teaching and apparently, the early intellectual Christian's that deciphered the writings agreed with John.

EVERY council was to correct a heretical view.
If explaining the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union was so important, it means the opposing views were heretical and the orthodox view needed to be clarified.

The OT is replete with verses about the spirit and a Son of Man that was being awaited. The Jews knew that Jesus calling Himself this Son was blasphemy because He was declaring Himself to be God.

If they believed it, perhaps we should too.
 

JohnPaul

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Jesus Christ is not God but the Son of God, plain and simple.
 

GodsGrace

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I’m in. Let’s explore “only begotten” (monogenes) and see exactly what it means when it pertains to Jesus.....?
OK Jane.
PLEASE remind me tomorrow...11pm here and I think it'll take more than one post.
Just resend this post again.
 

GodsGrace

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GG, I know this was not directed to me, but I’d like to ask you, why you believe you needed to “come to terms” with the trinity not being a salvation issue? If it is the foundational doctrine of all of Christendom’s churches, then it matters a great deal.
Misunderstanding,,,,
It's not Come To Terms with this not being a salvation issue,
It's coming to terms with How any individual person can come to understand the Trinity. Although there's an Orthodox explanation, persons tend to translate in terms they can grasp.
How many times have I read:
ONE GOD IN THREE PERSONS.
Yes, this would make 3 gods.
It's
THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD.

There is only One God.
 
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GodsGrace

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GG, I know this was not directed to me, but I’d like to ask you, why you believe you needed to “come to terms” with the trinity not being a salvation issue? If it is the foundational doctrine of all of Christendom’s churches, then it matters a great deal.

If “the church” altered the very nature of God and misrepresented Jehovah’s relationship with his son, don’t you think that this is a salvation issue? If Jesus is NOT God...and the Holy Spirit is NOT God, then the First Commandment has been breached.....and no salvation is possible.
PS
Your second paragraph is correct.
Another poster believes Jesus was just a man.
The First commandment has been breached by him.
 

amadeus

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I couldn't tell where your post ended and his began...he is using copy and paste instead of reply.
I won't say much more than that he is one whose posts I usually avoid. He has posted nothing here to cause me to reconsider my normal avoidance of his entries.
 
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Grailhunter

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I’m in. Let’s explore “only begotten” (monogenes) and see exactly what it means when it pertains to Jesus.....?

Only Begotten

Oh Boy! A word study!

The Greek word μονογενής is an adjective compounded of μονος “only” and γενος meaning “kin, offspring, family, or in relation to other topics not discussing offspring or family "kind, race, or type." Which this can be used in the Greek languages but does not occur in the Bible. In usage, with few exceptions it refers to an only son or daughter. When used in reference to a son, it cannot mean “one of a kind,” because the parent is also of the same kind.

Keep studying and you will get there. LOL No you won't! Linguistics is complicated enough when you are studying modern languages but ancient languages follow different rules. You take a dictionary of Koine Greek and it is pretty small and light. You take a full dictionary on the English language and it called a podium dictionary and there are people that cannot lift it. Why is an English dictionary so large? Well, because the English language is made up of words that mean specific things....But even in the English languages there are words that depending on the context used, can have more than one meaning

The Koine Greek language is full of this by design, that is why it has fewer words than the English language.
Multiple definitions of words depending on the context of use and even what other words are used in the sentence or paragraph and or the overall topic at hand.

Punctuation Marks in the Greek Language –


    • σημεία στίξης – simeia stizis – punctuation
    • η τελεία (.) – i teleia – period
    • η άνω τελεία (·) – i ano teleia – semi colon
    • το κόμμα (,) – to komma – comma
    • η διπλή τελεία :)) – i thipli teleia – colon
    • το ερωτηματικό (;) – to erotimatiko – question mark
    • το θαυμαστικό (!) – to thavmastiko – exclamation mark
    • τα αποσιωπητικά (…) – ta aposiopytika – ellipsis
    • η παρένθεση () – I parenthesis – parenthesis
    • τα εισαγωγικά ( « ») – ta isagogika – quotation
    • η παύλα (-) – i pavla – dash
    • Masculine and feminine genders
As far as "only begotten" People of little knowledge of antient languages can see a word and see a few meanings and go completely of in left field. As far as @Aunty Jane, she has an intent so her motivation is obvious. The debate exists but most Lexicons....most notable Lexicons, determine that only begotten is the correct translation of those words in the context of John 3:16. And I say most Lexicons, but as of yet I have not found one that translates only begotten as only one or only type or only class. I am sure there is some but they are notably few. Now as far as possible meanings most will include only one or only type or only class but at the bottom of the list, which means seldom used in that context within the language and no Lexicon I have found specifically shows a list of scriptures that these definitions were used in the Bible. I am sure there are...maybe Ben and Jerry's Lexicon.

Early Church Fathers understood this verse to mean only begotten Son. Some of the most well known. Polycarp a disciple of the Apostle John who was witnessed by both Irenaeus and Tertullian recognized him and his connection to John....all three understood the deity of Christ and that He was the Son of Yahweh, the only begotten Son.
John 1:14
John 1:18
John 3:16
John 3:18

Thank you ma'am may I have another!

And @GodsGrace as far as patience...you are a saint.
 
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Aunty Jane

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1 cor which you posted states that all things are THROUGH the Lord.
Who is this Lord?
Could it be the one in John 1?
The reason John wrote his gospel is to show that Jesus is God.
Can't you even trust John?
So if John wants to show how Jesus is God, the early Christian's had to come to terms with someone in whom they trusted.

This was John's teaching and apparently, the early intellectual Christian's that deciphered the writings agreed with John.
I am so pleased you raised this....what did John believe? Didn’t he believe the same as all the other apostles? Or was Jesus somehow like a leopard changing his spots? Did no one notice that John was teaching something other than what all the other apostles taught? Or was it that John’s gospel was the the last and easiest to misinterpret?

I have given trinitarians’ favourite verse endless explanations, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.....there is a reason for this blindness I believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The one who wanted to alter God’s nature and his relationship with his son.
If you break the first Commandment, you have lost your salvation.

In Greek, John 1:1 does NOT say what it is translated to say in English.
There are two “gods” mentioned in that verse and if you consult the Greek interlinear it becomes very obvious where the omission is in English, and the inclusion is in Greek....

To define the nameless God/Lord of Israel, the Greeks used the definite article “ho theos” (THE God) to describe him in contrast to just “theos” without the definite article, which simply means “a god” or divine mighty one.

John 1:1 Mounce Interlinear (Biblegateway) Note that little word "ho" and where it is used in relation to God (Jehovah) and where it is missing in relation to Jesus.
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

So the term “theos” (god) is not exclusive to Jehovah and applies also to Jesus, but without the definite article. If the divine name had still be in use, this confusion could never have happened.

John 1:1 would have read.....”in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah and the Word was divine.” So it’s not saying that Jesus is “THE God” only that he is god-like, or divine. John 1:18 confirms that "no man has ever seen God".
How many people saw Jesus?

EVERY council was to correct a heretical view.
The heretics leading the church were in no position to correct themselves let alone those who questioned their their adopted doctrines. When the Fox is guarding the hen house, how safe are the chickens?
The "weeds" were doing what weeds do best....spreading their seeds till the whole garden is overgrown with them. Why do you think Jesus said that "few" are on the cramped and narrow road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) Its the "many" who are on the road to destruction.

If explaining the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union was so important, it means the opposing views were heretical and the orthodox view needed to be clarified.
There is no such thing as a “hypostatic union” ever mentioned in the Bible so how could it be important? This is how the church got their doctrines through, by inventing terms and using the power of suggestion to get them approved....it was no overnight affair, but challenged at every turn....time was the decider. Only when Christianity was so weak that it was no longer up for a fight did these doctrines and beliefs and practices get passed off as “Christian” doctrine. They never were. Do you think the “weeds” were never planted? Apostasy was beginning whilst the apostles were still alive, so when the last apostle (John) passed away, there was no longer any restraint to keep the 'wolves' from overtaking the church.
“By their fruits” Jesus said we would identify them. He said good trees do not produce rotten fruit. The rotten fruit of the church is established history. (2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; Acts 20:30)

The OT is replete with verses about the spirit and a Son of Man that was being awaited. The Jews knew that Jesus calling Himself this Son was blasphemy because He was declaring Himself to be God.
If you understand the meaning of the word “god” in both Hebrew and Greek, you will see that it is NOT exclusive to Jehovah, anymore that the title “lord” is exclusive to God. Emphasis is placed on words that have changed meaning over the centuries, as if these titles can apply only to God. That is not true. Sarah called Abraham “Lord” But he was her husband, not her God.
Jehovah himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because they had divine authority.
Moses was said to be “god” to Pharaoh.....English translation coupled with trinitarians bias has let people down and misled them into false doctrines.

The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, not because he was claiming to be God, but calling himself God's son. (John 10:31-36) They wanted to condemn him in order to have the grounds to put him to death. If Jesus had claimed to be God, then the charge would have made him guilty....but he had to die as an innocent man.

If they believed it, perhaps we should too.
Not a chance.....I believe what God’s word says and the apostate Christians of later centuries have nothing to say to me that counters what God’s word says.....you can believe them if you wish....but I will pass, thank you.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Who cares about the great commission?
Some guy wants his words spread.
So?
I'm sure that you have mistaken what @Wrangler has said.....
Matthew 28:19-20 is the great commission.
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the world.” (NCB)

This was not a recommendation...but a command from Christ to spread his message in all the world.
 

GodsGrace

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I am so pleased you raised this....what did John believe? Didn’t he believe the same as all the other apostles? Or was Jesus somehow like a leopard changing his spots? Did no one notice that John was teaching something other than what all the other apostles taught? Or was it that John’s gospel was the the last and easiest to misinterpret?

I have given trinitarians’ favourite verse endless explanations, but it always seems to fall on deaf ears and blind eyes.....there is a reason for this blindness I believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) The one who wanted to alter God’s nature and his relationship with his son.
If you break the first Commandment, and you have lost your salvation.

In Greek, John 1:1 does NOT say what it is translated to say in English.
There are two “gods” mentioned in that verse and if you consult the Greek interlinear it becomes very obvious where the omission is in English, and the inclusion is in Greek....

To define the nameless God/Lord of Israel, the Greeks used the definite article “ho theos” (THE God) to describe him in contrast to just “theos” without the definite article, which simply means “a god” or divine mighty one.

John 1:1 Mounce Interlinear (Biblegateway) Note that little word "ho" and where it is used in relation to God (Jehovah) and where it is missing in relation to Jesus.
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

So the term “theos” (god) is not exclusive to Jehovah and applies also to Jesus, but without the definite article. If the divine name had still be in use, this confusion could never have happened.

John 1:1 would have read.....”in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah and the Word was divine.” So it’s not saying that Jesus is “THE God” only that he is god-like, or divine. John 1:18 confirms that "no man has ever seen God".
How many people saw Jesus?


The heretics leading the church were in no position to correct themselves let alone those who questioned their their adopted doctrines. When the Fox is guarding the hen house, how safe are the chickens?
The "weeds" were doing what weeds do best....spreading their seeds till the whole garden is overgrown with them. Why do you think Jesus said that "few" are on the cramped and narrow road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) Its the "many" who are on the road to destruction.


There is no such thing as a “hypostatic union” ever mentioned in the Bible so how could it be important? This is how the church got their doctrines through, by inventing terms and using the power of suggestion to get them approved....it was no overnight affair, but challenged at every turn....time was the decider. Only when Christianity was so weak that it was no longer up for a fight did these doctrines and beliefs and practices get passed off as “Christian” doctrine. They never were. Do you think the “weeds” were never planted? Apostasy was beginning whilst the apostles were still alive, so when the last apostle (John) passed away, there was no longer any restraint to keep the 'wolves' from overtaking the church.
“By their fruits” Jesus said we would identify them. He said good trees do not produce rotten fruit. The rotten fruit of the church is established history. (2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; Acts 20:30)


If you understand the meaning of the word “god” in both Hebrew and Greek, you will see that it is NOT exclusive to Jehovah, anymore that the title “lord” is exclusive to God. Emphasis is placed on words that have changed meaning over the centuries, as if these titles can apply only to God. That is not true. Sarah called Abraham “Lord” But he was her husband, not her God.
Jehovah himself called the judges in Israel “gods” because they had divine authority.
Moses was said to be “god” to Pharaoh.....English translation coupled with trinitarians bias has let people down and misled them into false doctrines.

The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy, not because he was claiming to be God, but calling himself God's son. (John 10:31-36) They wanted to condemn him in order to have the grounds to put him to death. If Jesus had claimed to be God, then the charge would have made him guilty....but he had to die as an innocent man.


Not a chance.....I believe what God’s word says and the apostate Christians of later centuries have nothing to say to me that counters what God’s word says.....you can believe them if you wish....but I will pass, thank you.
Jesus was guilty for the Jews.
For the Romans claiming to be God was not a crime deserving of a death sentence. So for the Romans the charge was that Jesus claimed to be a King, like the Ceaser and this was a crime. He died an innocent man because He was NOT an earthly king.

Lord means master.
But Thomas said, My Lord and my God.
Thomas was Jewish and understood what he was saying. Only God could resurrect by His own power.

As to the fruit, the church is always holy, even if its leadership is not. This is true for every church,,,even yours. Jesus was saying, in Matthew 7, that we can know people by their actions, comparing them to good and bad trees. All of Matthew 7 is about people. Who will make it, who won't, and how/why

The Hypostatic Union...
Was Jesus God or a man?

John 1 was correctly translated by you.
Jesus is Not Yahweh.
He is Yeshua.
He is divine.

Where's the problem then?
 

GodsGrace

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I'm sure that you have mistaken what @Wrangler has said.....
Matthew 28:19-20 is the great commission.
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the world.” (NCB)

This was not a recommendation...but a command from Christ to spread his message in all the world.
I understood what Wrangler said.
He believes Jesus was just a man.
I was being sarcastic.
Who would want to travel the world in those times and end up dying a gruesome death because some man asked them to?