Where do aborted babies go?

[Scott Downey]

Paradise was here on earth before the Serpent corrupted Adam and Eve. that's what got them kicked out of the Land.
The truly Born again are also in Paradise, it's called the Kingdom of God.
All of the Jews did not go to Hell before Christ came. Abrahams what ? so they who were truly his are his.
Jesus never went down to Hell for anyone in fact.

Adam and Eve lived in Eden not paradise
Paradise is brought up into heaven by Christ when He ascended into heaven. Paradise was inside of a compartment of Hell.
Due to the way Acts 2 is written, Jesus must have descended into hell.
Hell is in the lower parts of the earth.
Example of what the lower parts of the earth really is

1. Psalm 63:9
   But those who seek my life, to destroy it, Shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Isaiah 44:23
   Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And glorified Himself in Israel.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Ezekiel 32:24
   “There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Ephesians 4:9
   (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Isaiah 44:23, tells us that JACOB when he was redeemded out of paradise, a part of hell, Jacob rejoiced. That would have happened when Paradise was visited by CHRIST and caught up into heaven, due to the work of Christ on behalf of the OT saints who were in the lower parts of the earth in paradise after they died.

 

[Scott Downey]

1. Luke 23:43
   And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 12:1
   The Vision of Paradise
   It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 2 Corinthians 12:4
   how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Revelation 2:7
   “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

That PARADISE could not be in heaven when Christ DIED, is shown by Luke 23:43 when Christ tells the thief next to him at the crucifixion, that he will be with him today in Paradise. At death, Christ descended into the 'lower parts of the earth', HELL, where Paradise was at the time.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Apostles Creed even says Christ descended into hell, as actually Apostle Peter speak some of too.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.

Example 1 Peter 3, after Christ dies, Christ went and preached to these dead spirits in prison, which would have been in hell. 'WENT', means actually went there to where they were. Hell really is a prison, those who go there are not free to leave on their will. Even with Paradise, Abraham says there is a great gulf so that no one can come or go one side to the other. Hell is compartmentalized, for example the angels who sinned God cast into a gloomy dungeon, just another part of hell.

2 Peter 2:4 , God didn’t spare the angels when they sinned but cast them into the lowest level of the underworld and committed them to chains of darkness, keeping them there until the judgment. CJB, For God did not spare the angels who sinned; on the contrary, he put them in gloomy dungeons lower than Sh’ol to be held for judgment.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ opened the way for man to have eternal life in heaven, before Christ there was no eternal life for any man, and men did not ascend into heaven on their own. At their deaths they descended 'into the lower parts of the earth' to either hell fire or paradise to await Christ who would lead the 'captivity' captive, give them eternal life and take them to heaven so they could be with HIM where HE IS.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Even Samuel came up out of the earth and talked to Saul. Of interest is Elijah and Moses appearing to Christ on the earth visible to men, but they did not descend out of heaven. They would have left Paradise temporarily to speak with Christ. Christ did that as a manifestation of His glory to the apostles, that He was the Resurrection and the Life.

When Christ in Rev 1 says this,
Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Just how do you suppose HE got those keys? Part of the answer is in Ephesians 4:9,

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

When He fills all things, this means He has been given authority from God over all of creation, both heaven, the earth, and hell.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

He wasn't. He, along with Eve, became that way, as documented in Genesis 3. This is why they were banished from Eden.


We do according to what we are. Not necessarily what God made us to be, but what we are... because of Adam's fall and our inherited sinful state/nature.


Well, man (after Adam) is born with a sinful nature, and yes, "totally depraved," but this means not that "he can only choose to do wrong," but rather that he can not avoid doing wrong (sinning). We read in the Bible that even the good things we do (good works) are tainted with sin.


Absolutely! But for some ~ those He has caused to be born again, there is no more condemnation for it, because they are in Christ Jesus. But yes, absolutely, they ~ we ~ are still accountable in this life, and subject to His discipline, as God disciplines those He loves. And they will give an account of themselves at the Judgment. But they will have an Advocate, Christ Jesus Himself. And because of this, they will return to Eden, which will be made brand new. The others, the ones on Jesus's left, will also give an account of themselves at the Judgment, but they will have no one but themselves to stand before a holy God, and they will... well, you know.

Grace and peace to you.

People do as they choose to do. Choices are not influenced by a sin nature for men are not born with a sin nature. Again, if men are born with a sin nature that causes men to choose to do wrong, then man cannot be justly, rightly be condemned by God or anyone else. One born without legs cannot be justly, rightly condemned for not walking.

So we do not do according to what we are. Instead, what one is depends on what one does. Meaning one id not first righteous THEN goes about doing righteous. One must first do righteous in order to be righteous. Therefore one is according as one does.

So people choose of their free will to be born again, not caused to be born again against their will. And those who choose to be born again are "in Christ" and as long as they conditionally remain in Christ they will be saved. But some fall into unbelief and leave Christ becoming lost. Revelation 2:1-7; 2 Peter 2.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you think everyone on the planet at some point in their youth becomes sinful? That would mean that the opportunity to be without sin would exist and some may even achieve that for a time ... until ... oops, I failed - almost made it.
God says we are ALL like dirty rags. Where does it say thay infants or children are innocent?
You can continue believing what you want - not much more I can say.

Those born with severe mental disabilities do not become sinful and infants that die as infants do not become sinful.

Romans 7:8-9 Paul teaches there is something some people refer to as an age of accountability. All are born innocent not knowing right from wrong. But as one grows intellectually having been taught right from wrong, then one become accountable God, one then sins transgressing God's law 1 John 3:4. This generally takes place in youth Genesis 8:21. Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4 the way the Bible defines sin and how one becomes a sinner is a law must exist and an accountable person transgresses that law then one becomes a sinner. Per Psalms 51 David refers to conception. At conception all there is is a very, very small fertilized egg with no developed brain. For David to have sin, be a sinner at conception require he transgress a law of God he was accountable to. Of course at that point he was not accountable to God and he was not even able to sin/transgress.

Isaiah 64:6, many take this out of context. Contextually Isaiah was not talking about all men universally but specifically about Israel at a time Israel was in sin..."because of our (Israel's) iniquities" and "our (Israel's) iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away". And as I stated above, infants are not capable of sinning therefore cannot have iniquities.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Adam and Eve lived in Eden not paradise
Paradise is brought up into heaven by Christ when He ascended into heaven. Paradise was inside of a compartment of Hell.
Due to the way Acts 2 is written, Jesus must have descended into hell.
Hell is in the lower parts of the earth.
Example of what the lower parts of the earth really is

1. Psalm 63:9
   But those who seek my life, to destroy it, Shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Isaiah 44:23
   Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it! Shout, you lower parts of the earth; Break forth into singing, you mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And glorified Himself in Israel.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Ezekiel 32:24
   “There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Ephesians 4:9
   (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Isaiah 44:23, tells us that JACOB when he was redeemded out of paradise, a part of hell, Jacob rejoiced. That would have happened when Paradise was visited by CHRIST and caught up into heaven, due to the work of Christ on behalf of the OT saints who were in the lower parts of the earth in paradise after they died.

Adam and Eve were in Paradise before the fall, the spot is not the point, they failed and were lost to God. it's a Spiritual concept not from a worldly one you know and so is Hell and Heaven.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

1. Luke 23:43
   And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 12:1
   The Vision of Paradise
   It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 2 Corinthians 12:4
   how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Revelation 2:7
   “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

That PARADISE could not be in heaven when Christ DIED, is shown by Luke 23:43 when Christ tells the thief next to him at the crucifixion, that he will be with him today in Paradise. At death, Christ descended into the 'lower parts of the earth', HELL, where Paradise was at the time.

Nonsense !
Paradise is not Heaven.
Anyone who is With Jesus are his, the others are of this world, and that's why they killed him, because as Jesus said of them, that they were of their Father, who was a murderer and a lira from the beginning.

Jesus never said that that dude would be in Heaven. or he would of said Heaven.

Jesus is just retrieving the Souls out and lifting them up due to being worthy of God with him in Heaven.

You are coming from a worldly perception and totally lacking in Spiritual.

 

[Scott Downey]

Adam and Eve were in Paradise before the fall, the spot is not the point, they failed and were lost to God. it's a Spiritual concept not from a worldly one you know and so is Hell and Heaven.

A spiritual place where spirits go, definitely a real place. Spirits also inhabit the physical earth as it is also a spiritual place. Hell is below the earth, as was Paradise before Christ ascended into heaven, and Heaven is above the earth.

Genesis 1
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

A spiritual place where spirits go, definitely a real place. Spirits also inhabit the physical earth as it is also a spiritual place. Hell is below the earth, as was Paradise before Christ ascended into heaven, and Heaven is above the earth.

Genesis 1
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

The Story or Creation
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was wast and void: darkness covered the abyss, and the Spirit of God was stirring above the waters.

I hope that helps you.
I could show the real wording of 6, 7 and 8 for you as well.
In 6 and let "it" divide ? well no ! that's wrong.
6 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters to divide the waters. and so it was.

And as to 7 well the word is below not under ?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Also not to mention that Jesus walked on the water ?

That may help you.

 

[PinSeeker]

People do as they choose to do.

Well, they make choices and act according to those choices, for sure. But the choices people make are driven by who and what they are, their nature. This is true from conception.

Choices are not influenced by a sin nature for men are not born with a sin nature.

They are. They are born not of God but of this world. This is true from conception.

Again, if men are born with a sin nature that causes men to choose to do wrong, then man cannot be justly, rightly be condemned by God or anyone else.

And again, all men are born not of God but of this world ~ of Adam, who, when he ate of the fruit of the tree, entered into this state (along with Eve). Since they were our original parents, this has been the inherited state of every man and woman born into this world from that day.

One born without legs cannot be justly, rightly condemned for not walking.

We are born with "legs." See above.

So we do not do according to what we are.

We do. Unless and until we are made to be something else ~ born again of the Spirit. Then we are of our Father (God) and desire to do His will and please Him.

Instead, what one is depends on what one does. Meaning one id not first righteous THEN goes about doing righteous. One must first do righteous in order to be righteous. Therefore one is according as one does.

See, you're saying something altogether different here. One must do good or bad things to be seen by others as a "good" or "bad" person, for sure, so outwardly speaking, I agree. But this is another thing altogether. It has always been and will always be that what a person is, who he is at his core, drives his will, which then drives his actions, what he says and does.

So people choose of their free will to be born again...

Absolutely not. I'm not sure how old you are, but how ever many years ago it was, before that, did you choose to be born? A person's being born of his/her parents ~ as well as being born again of the Spirit ~ is not a matter of the person's will; surely you can guess why this is...

...not caused to be born again against their will.

This is a ridiculous comparison, or alternative to the opposite (or how ever we might put it), as I said before. With regard to the physical, at any point before a person is born, there is no will to, well, do anything either according to or against, because the person doesn't exist yet. Likewise, with regard to the spiritual, at any point before a person is born of the Spirit, the person is spiritually dead and thus spiritually non-existent, not possessing a spiritual will, "knowing nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9) of his need for salvation and thus not inclined in any way to do anything according to the Spirit ~ there is no spiritual will to do anything either according to or against.

And those who choose to be born again are "in Christ"

No one "chooses to be born again." See above. Some... well all who are born again ~ after the point that they are born again, will choose to glorify (and obey) God. But others will not make that choice, instead choosing to ~ as Paul puts it in Romans 1 ~ suppress the truth in their unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).

...as long as they conditionally remain in Christ they will be saved.

No one can remain in Christ by his or her own power. If it depended on us in and of ourselves, no one would remain in Christ. But God gives us His Spirit, by Whom He keeps us from stumbling (Jude 24-25); by God’s power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5). So, I agree, in a sense, regarding the condition of remaining in Christ, but God has caused us to be born again (surely not because we have somehow chosen to be born again) to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (! Peter 1:3-4)

But some fall into unbelief and leave Christ becoming lost. Revelation 2:1-7; 2 Peter 2.

Well there are surely some that will do that, and of their own will and accord, but these were never born again of the Spirit in the first place. As John says in 1 John 2:19, some will go out from us, thus proving to themselves and others that they were not and are not of us ~ born again of the Spirit. And these are included with the "antichrists" that John speaks of in the previous verse (1 John 2:18). So, to what you say, those who fall into unbelief never really believed, but only thought they did for a time.

So again, it's a heart issue, and the condition of the heart and whether or not it's been changed by God ~ spiritual birth ~ by the Father's will and the Spirit's working. And if that spiritual birth has happened, the person will not then and never will become dead again. As Jesus Himself says in John 6:39, "...this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day." And this can happen at any point in a person's life, from conception to death. So where do babies go, either born or unborn? Well, it surely is conditional, but on God, Who may or may not extend mercy, not on man and his will or action (Romans 9:16). So again, the best we can answer this original question is, some are elect, and some are not; some receive God's mercy, and some do not; some will go home to be with Jesus, and some will not.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, they make choices and act according to those choices, for sure. But the choices people make are driven by who and what they are, their nature. This is true from conception.


They are. They are born not of God but of this world. This is true from conception.


And again, all men are born not of God but of this world ~ of Adam, who, when he ate of the fruit of the tree, entered into this state (along with Eve). Since they were our original parents, this has been the inherited state of every man and woman born into this world from that day.


We are born with "legs." See above.


We do. Unless and until we are made to be something else ~ born again of the Spirit. Then we are of our Father (God) and desire to do His will and please Him.


See, you're saying something altogether different here. One must do good or bad things to be seen by others as a "good" or "bad" person, for sure, so outwardly speaking, I agree. But this is another thing altogether. It has always been and will always be that what a person is, who he is at his core, drives his will, which then drives his actions, what he says and does.


Absolutely not. I'm not sure how old you are, but how ever many years ago it was, before that, did you choose to be born? A person's being born of his/her parents ~ as well as being born again of the Spirit ~ is not a matter of the person's will; surely you can guess why this is...


This is a ridiculous comparison, or alternative to the opposite (or how ever we might put it), as I said before. With regard to the physical, at any point before a person is born, there is no will to, well, do anything either according to or against, because the person doesn't exist yet. Likewise, with regard to the spiritual, at any point before a person is born of the Spirit, the person is spiritually dead and thus spiritually non-existent, not possessing a spiritual will, "knowing nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9) of his need for salvation and thus not inclined in any way to do anything according to the Spirit ~ there is no spiritual will to do anything either according to or against.


No one "chooses to be born again." See above. Some... well all who are born again ~ after the point that they are born again, will choose to glorify (and obey) God. But others will not make that choice, instead choosing to ~ as Paul puts it in Romans 1 ~ suppress the truth in their unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).


No one can remain in Christ by his or her own power. If it depended on us in and of ourselves, no one would remain in Christ. But God gives us His Spirit, by Whom He keeps us from stumbling (Jude 24-25); by God’s power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5). So, I agree, in a sense, regarding the condition of remaining in Christ, but God has caused us to be born again (surely not because we have somehow chosen to be born again) to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us (! Peter 1:3-4)


Well there are surely some that will do that, and of their own will and accord, but these were never born again of the Spirit in the first place. As John says in 1 John 2:19, some will go out from us, thus proving to themselves and others that they were not and are not of us ~ born again of the Spirit. And these are included with the "antichrists" that John speaks of in the previous verse (1 John 2:18). So, to what you say, those who fall into unbelief never really believed, but only thought they did for a time.

So again, it's a heart issue, and the condition of the heart and whether or not it's been changed by God ~ spiritual birth ~ by the Father's will and the Spirit's working. And if that spiritual birth has happened, the person will not then and never will become dead again. As Jesus Himself says in John 6:39, "...this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day." And this can happen at any point in a person's life, from conception to death. So where do babies go, either born or unborn? Well, it surely is conditional, but on God, Who may or may not extend mercy, not on man and his will or action (Romans 9:16). So again, the best we can answer this original question is, some are elect, and some are not; some receive God's mercy, and some do not; some will go home to be with Jesus, and some will not.

Grace and peace to you.

Yet men are not born with a sin nature, not born totally depraved for such would give men an excuse for their sinning when man has no excuse for his sin (Romans 1:20). If men were born tota;;y depraved they would have no free will but could only be a slave to that totally depraved nature only able to sin. And God could not righteously, justly condemn men for how men are born against their will. My example of men born with out legs yet condemned for not walking was to demonstrate such UNjustice. The SAME UNJUSTICE God would show in condemning men born for being born totally depraved. Calvinism tries to portray man as an innocent victim of birth/sin and God as a villain condemning "innocent" men for how they were born against their will. But since men are not born with a sin nature/totally depraved but with a free will, the God can justly condemn men for their free will choices.

Men do choose to be born again or not and those who choose not to be can JUSTLY be condemn. If being born again were completely out of man's control then man cannot be justly condemned. From the context of John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again and if being born again was out of his control and 100% in God's control, he could not justly be condemned for what was God's failure. Ezekiel 18:31 still exists and shows there is synergy between God and man for man to have a new heart and spirit/born again. God doe not force the new birth unconditionlly, capriciously upon some men against their will and withhold it from other men. At the same time, men cannot be born again separate and apart from God and His word that instructs men how to become born again. Hence it takes both God's word and man's obedience to that word for man to be born again.

Jude commanded "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 1:21) so the responsibility is given to the Christian to keep himself in God's love and those who choose not to do so can justly be condemned. The command would be pointless, senseless, grievous (1 John 5:3) if man could not possibly do so.

 

[Scott Downey]

We are born again of the Lord God's will, not our own. Scripture is very sure of that.
And this is only due to God's abundant mercy and love expressed towards 'US', not all men.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Peter refers to those born of God as the elect which means chosen of God for salvation.
And we are kept by the power of God through faith. God grants to us our faith as a gift.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

It is how we who are born into God's family, stay in God's family. The elect will remain faithful, all the rest will fall away, depart from following Christ. Those born of God believe in Christ, they have been given each one a measure of faith, otherwise they depart from Christ as Jesus says in John 6 as they were not granted by God to come to Christ. Scripture is very clear on why people believe, and why they do not believe in Christ.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more


1 peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2a. who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
2b. through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
2c.to be obedient to Jesus Christ
2d. and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yet men are not born with a sin nature, not born totally depraved...

You can call it what you want, but it is what it is; men are born with a nature that is prone to sin, a rebellious nature with regard to God ~ slaves to sin rather than slaves to righteousness. This is the dichotomy presented by Paul in Romans 6:17-19 ~

"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."​

...for such would give men an excuse for their sinning...

Absolutely not.

If men were born totally depraved they would have no free will but could only be a slave to that totally depraved nature only able to sin. And God could not righteously, justly condemn men for how men are born against their will.

Yeah, no, and no. Because of his nature, he cannot help but choose ~ freely ~ to sin, and to dwell in sin. He is, by nature, not of God, but of his father the devil, and therefore wholly inclined toward sin.

My example of men born with out legs yet condemned for not walking was to demonstrate such UNjustice. The SAME UNJUSTICE God would show in condemning men born for being born totally depraved.

And your example is rendered invalid by the fact that all men are born not of God but of our first parents, namely Adam, who died the very day he ate of the fruit of the tree in Eden ~ just as God said he would. He took on this sinful state, and we, as his progeny, naturally have it and are in need of being reborn of the Spirit.

Calvinism tries to portray man as an innocent victim of birth/sin...

No, because there is no such thing as innocence, because of the sinful condition Adam, the federal head of the human race, fell into as a result of eating from the forbidden tree. All are guilty from conception/birth. The fact is that those opposed to John Calvin's understanding of Genesis 3 in particular (and Augustine before him) want to believe, like Jacobus Arminius did (and Pelagius before him) that man did not inherit Adam's state of guilt and can somehow redeem themselves, or at least contribute something to his or her salvation.

and God as a villain condemning "innocent" men for how they were born against their will.

No and no. God is no "villain." All men, from Adam on down are deserving of condemnation.

Stop with the "born against their will" thing; it's totally ridiculous. Hey, there's people out there who wish they were never born; were they born against their will? Well, if you flip chronological time upside down, then maybe, but such is a ridiculous thought.

...since men are not born with a sin nature/totally depraved but with a free will, the God can justly condemn men for their free will choices.

It's the condition of the heart, which is wholly inclined against God, for which they are condemned. Paul says in Romans 7 and 8, speaking of all believers before they are born again of the Spirit:

"For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." ​

But then he contrasts us with our state now, having been born of the Spirit and therefore in Christ Jesus:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."​

Men do choose to be born again or not and those who choose not to be can JUSTLY be condemn.

The dead cannot do anything, much less choose anything. All can be justly condemned, and are, at least initially, because they are in Adam, rather than in the Second Adam, Christ Jesus. But... well, I'll let Paul speak again:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

From the context of John 3, Nicodemus had not been born again and if being born again was out of his control and 100% in God's control, he could not justly be condemned for what was God's failure.

See, there's a lot wrong with this statement, but I'll just question you here and say, does Jesus not explicitly tell Nicodemus the following?

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

To be continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Ezekiel 18:31 still exists and shows there is synergy between God and man for man to have a new heart and spirit/born again. God does not force the new birth unconditionally, capriciously upon some men against their will and withhold it from other men. At the same time, men cannot be born again separate and apart from God and His word that instructs men how to become born again. Hence it takes both God's word and man's obedience to that word for man to be born again.

Ugh. See above. Just one thing here, and let's look at the three Ezekiel passages again:

You point out Ezekiel 18:31, where God says, "Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?"

I point out Ezekiel 11:19-21, where God says "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their deeds upon their own heads, declares the Lord GOD.” And I point out Ezekiel 36:26-28, where God says, "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
​

So how do you reconcile those passages, Ernest? In Ezekiel 11 and 36, there is no synergy. Does Ezekiel contradict himself in 18:31? And, since it's God's Word, and actually God Who is speaking through Ezekiel, is God contradicting Himself in 18:31? Of course I say absolutely not...

Jude commanded "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 1:21) so the responsibility is given to the Christian to keep himself in God's love and those who choose not to do so can justly be condemned. The command would be pointless, senseless, grievous (1 John 5:3) if man could not possibly do so.

But Jude is speaking to Christians, Ernest, as you point out. And what you say about those who choose not to do so, that they can be justly condemned, is true, but, as Jude goes on to say just a few verses later, God "is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy," and this fits with the following:

* our faith does not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5)
* (we) toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within us (Colossians 1:29)
* by God's power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)​

So, it's not a "synergy," but there is a call to responsibility, to be sure, a response to God's call that is required of us. Like Paul, are to press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:14). And this is what God is saying in Ezekiel 18:31. But still, it's the Spirit Who, by the will of the Father, is working in us so that we will and work for His good pleasure (Ezekiel 11, Ezekiel 36, and Philippians 2 (v.13). He enables us to persevere, and by the His power keeping us, as Jude says, from stumbling.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You can call it what you want, but it is what it is; men are born with a nature that is prone to sin, a rebellious nature with regard to God ~ slaves to sin rather than slaves to righteousness. This is the dichotomy presented by Paul in Romans 6:17-19 ~

"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."​

Absolutely not.


Yeah, no, and no. Because of his nature, he cannot help but choose ~ freely ~ to sin, and to dwell in sin. He is, by nature, not of God, but of his father the devil, and therefore wholly inclined toward sin.


And your example is rendered invalid by the fact that all men are born not of God but of our first parents, namely Adam, who died the very day he ate of the fruit of the tree in Eden ~ just as God said he would. He took on this sinful state, and we, as his progeny, naturally have it and are in need of being reborn of the Spirit.


No, because there is no such thing as innocence, because of the sinful condition Adam, the federal head of the human race, fell into as a result of eating from the forbidden tree. All are guilty from conception/birth. The fact is that those opposed to John Calvin's understanding of Genesis 3 in particular (and Augustine before him) want to believe, like Jacobus Arminius did (and Pelagius before him) that man did not inherit Adam's state of guilt and can somehow redeem themselves, or at least contribute something to his or her salvation.


No and no. God is no "villain." All men, from Adam on down are deserving of condemnation.

Stop with the "born against their will" thing; it's totally ridiculous. Hey, there's people out there who wish they were never born; were they born against their will? Well, if you flip chronological time upside down, then maybe, but such is a ridiculous thought.


It's the condition of the heart, which is wholly inclined against God, for which they are condemned. Paul says in Romans 7 and 8, speaking of all believers before they are born again of the Spirit:

"For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." ​

But then he contrasts us with our state now, having been born of the Spirit and therefore in Christ Jesus:

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."​

The dead cannot do anything, much less choose anything. All can be justly condemned, and are, at least initially, because they are in Adam, rather than in the Second Adam, Christ Jesus. But... well, I'll let Paul speak again:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

See, there's a lot wrong with this statement, but I'll just question you here and say, does Jesus not explicitly tell Nicodemus the following?

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

To be continued...

Whether one serves sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness (Romans 6:16) is a free will choice, no one is born with a sin nature, totally depraved that forces one to choose to serve sin unto death. Again, if one is born totally depraved he has no free will but forced by that nature to do what is wrong. That does for a fact make one a victim of how one was born giving perfect excuse for sinning. And God cannot justly condemn one for how one was born against his will.

If one was born without legs he cannot be justly condemned for not walking. One born without free will but born totally depraved cannot be justly condemned for the wrong he does that was forced upon him at birth. So it cannot be said one born with legs or free will can be deserving of condemnation. All people born with blue eyes will be lost, yet people have no control over eye color at birth and to condemn blue eyed people is unjust in every sense of the word. You posted "It's the condition of the heart, which is wholly inclined against God, for which they are condemned." So if men are born wholly inclined against God then man cannot justly be condemned for how he was born against his will. Unjust is not part of God's nature. It's free will choice in how men choose to set his own heart to either seek God or reject God (1 Chronicles 22:19; Psalms 78:7-8) for men are not born with a sin nature that forces one to sin thereby leaving one with no free will unable to set his heart to seek God.

You post "The dead cannot do anything, much less choose anything." You wrongly assume that being spiritually dead is like being physically dead. Those physically dead cannot do anything but those spiritually dead sure can do things. Those Peter preached to in Acts 2 were wicked, lost, spiritually dead. Yet while spiritually dead were willing and able to hear Peter's gospel sermon, understand it, be pricked in their hearts by those words, come to realize their lost state, see a need to do something about their lost condition and obey Peter's command to repent and be baptized. Those whom Stephen preached to in Acts 7 were also spiritually dead but able to hear and understand those words, be cut in their heart rejecting those words and murder Stephen. They did not kill Stephen because they were 'dead' and could not understand but could understand. The difference between those in Acts 2 and 7 was free will choice and not related to some supposed nature man is born with. Since it was free will choice God can justly condemn those who freely of their own will rejected Stephen's words.

I'm familiar with what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3. My point and question was this, if man has no choice in being born again, being born again is totally out of man's control and 100% in God's control yet Nicodemus was not born again, then whose fault, whose culpability is it Nicodemus was not born again? Since it would be out of Nicodemus' control, culpability cannot lie at his feet and condemnation of him would be unjust. If God says one must be born again to be saved and God alone controls who is or is not born again and God sees to it that Ernest T Bass is not born again, then how in this world can ETB be culpable? He cannot be culpable in anyway. If you told your children they must first clean their room before eating dinner then you lock their bedroom door preventing them from cleaning the room, then whose fault it it they will not have dinner? It's 100% YOUR culpability and to blame them and punish them is totally unjust. Yet if they are told to clean their room but refuse then that was their free will choice and culpability, blame lies justly at their feet for not having dinner. So Calvinism does make man a victim of sin and a victim of God's capricious choices in who God will or will not make born again.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ugh. See above. Just one thing here, and let's look at the three Ezekiel passages again:

You point out Ezekiel 18:31, where God says, "Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel?"

I point out Ezekiel 11:19-21, where God says "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose heart goes after their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their deeds upon their own heads, declares the Lord GOD.” And I point out Ezekiel 36:26-28, where God says, "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God."
​

So how do you reconcile those passages, Ernest? In Ezekiel 11 and 36, there is no synergy. Does Ezekiel contradict himself in 18:31? And, since it's God's Word, and actually God Who is speaking through Ezekiel, is God contradicting Himself in 18:31? Of course I say absolutely not...


But Jude is speaking to Christians, Ernest, as you point out. And what you say about those who choose not to do so, that they can be justly condemned, is true, but, as Jude goes on to say just a few verses later, God "is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy," and this fits with the following:

* our faith does not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5)
* (we) toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within us (Colossians 1:29)
* by God's power we are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5)​

So, it's not a "synergy," but there is a call to responsibility, to be sure, a response to God's call that is required of us. Like Paul, are to press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:14). And this is what God is saying in Ezekiel 18:31. But still, it's the Spirit Who, by the will of the Father, is working in us so that we will and work for His good pleasure (Ezekiel 11, Ezekiel 36, and Philippians 2 (v.13). He enables us to persevere, and by the His power keeping us, as Jude says, from stumbling.

Grace and peace to you.

Ezekiel does not contradict himself. If one takes both verses in God saying He will give them a new heart and spirit and then God telling them to make them a new heart and spirit then the only conclusion that can accurately be made is BOTH God and man have a role in man having a new heart and spirit. Calvinism wants to isolate and remove one verse Ezekiel 11:19 from all other Bible contexts so it can then easily assume Calvinistic monergism into the verse. Calvinists do not want to have to deal with Ezekiel 18:31 while I am dealing with both and can clearly see when both verses are taken together there is synergism between God and man. God does not unconditionally, randomly force a new heart upon some men and not others for that (1) makes God culpable for those who do not have a new heart and spirit when He has no such culpability and (2) makes God a respecter of persons when He is not (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35). It's God's role in instructing men in how to have a new heart and spirit and man's role in following those instructions in casting away all his transgressions. Those men who use their free will and follows those instructions will be given a new heart and spirit by God, and in choosing to follow those instructions, then men in that sense "save yourselves", Acts of the Apostles 10:40.
Since God does not randomly force a new heart and spirit upon man against man's will and man cannot make himself a new heart and spirit apart from God's instructions, then it does for a fact, as Ezekiel points out in those two passages, take BOTH God and man.

Acts 10:40 save yourselves
1 Timothy 4:16 save thyself
2 Corinthians 7:1 cleansed ourselves
2 Timothy 2:21 if a man purge himself
1 Peter 1:22 you have purified your souls
James 4:8 draw nigh to God, cleanse your hands, purify your heart
Jude 1:21 keep yourselves in God's love.


Clearly, obviously man has a role in his own salvation. When man chooses to obey God's word, it results in man being born again, having a new heart and spirit, be purified. And when man chooses to obey those commands, then by following those commands it can be said in that since man saves himself, gives himself a new heart and spirit.
If one is drowning and another throws a lifeline to the drowning man and tells him to 'save yourself and grab the line', then their is a synergy taking place for it takes BOTH in order for the drowning man to be saved. The rescuer does not force the drowning man to grab the line against his will nor can the drowning man save himself apart from the rescuer, apart from following the rescuers command to grab the line. If the drowning man refuses to grab the rope and dies, then his death is his own culpability. God does not withhold the saving rope from man then condemn man for not grabbing the saving rope that God did not even provide to him.

Jude 1:24 if Christians do as God says then God is able to keep Christians from falling. God does not force the Christian against the Christian's will to do His will thereby force Christians to stay in His love against their will. God is not able to go against His own words, God cannot lie and God has promised to condemn the disobedient therefore God is not able to go against His own words and save the disobedient Christian who refuses to repent of his sins.

It takes both and this is what Ezekiel is clearly showing. This does not fit Calvinism's monergism but then that is Calvinism's problem.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Story or Creation
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was wast and void: darkness covered the abyss, and the Spirit of God was stirring above the waters.

I hope that helps you.
I could show the real wording of 6, 7 and 8 for you as well.
In 6 and let "it" divide ? well no ! that's wrong.
6 Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters to divide the waters. and so it was.

And as to 7 well the word is below not under ?

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Water above firmament part of heaven, waters below firmament, earth. Thus, the division into heaven and earth into separate places.
Heaven is also not monolithic, it seems to have levels. You know the Soviets used to boast they went into heaven and saw no God..., thinking that the heaven in scripture is the space above the earth. But God dwells in the highest heaven, he is not floating around in space above earth. There exists the firmament between heaven and the earth that cannot be breached by us in any space ship.

Deuteronomy 10:14 Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it.

Job 22:12 “Is not God in the height of heaven? And see the highest stars, how lofty they are!

Luke 19:38 saying: “ ‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!’ Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

H7549 - rāqîaʿ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)
Here is what 'firmament' means in the Hebrew, and it has a definite structure, it is not nebulous and it is an interesting word. It can be thought of as a barrier beyond which none can go unless they are of God in Heaven, or living in heaven.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: firmament

In Job is the firmament described strong as a cast metal mirror
Job 37
14 “Listen to this, O Job;
Stand still and consider the wondrous works of God.
15 Do you know when God [f]dispatches them,
And causes the light of His cloud to shine?
16 Do you know how the clouds are balanced,
Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?
17 Why are your garments hot,
When He quiets the earth by the south wind?
18 With Him, have you spread out the skies,
Strong as a cast metal mirror?

 

[PinSeeker]

Ezekiel does not contradict himself. If one takes both verses in God saying He will give them a new heart and spirit and then God telling them to make them a new heart and spirit then the only conclusion that can accurately be made is BOTH God and man have a role in man having a new heart and spirit.

Nope. Many think this, but that does not make it true. The whole of Ezekiel 18 is the general call of the Gospel to salvation, which in the Old Testament was only for the Israelites but in the New Testament ~ with the coming of Jesus ~ is issued/opened to all without distinction, including Gentiles (everyone else). And all the other citations later in your post (

But there is a specific call issued by God only to His elect, which is clear throughout Scripture by all the prophets (from Moses to Micah, including Ezekiel) and all the apostles (from Matthew to John) but most clearly and explicitly by Paul in Romans 8-11. Ezekiel, The general call to mankind is clearly distinguished in Scripture ~ particularly by Paul in Romans 9-11 ~ as opposed to the specific call issued by God to His elect.

Calvinism wants to isolate and remove one verse Ezekiel 11:19...

LOL! See above. No one who understands Scripture as John Calvin (and Augustine centuries before him) did "isolates" or "removes" anything from God's Word. The great irony of your statement here is that you are isolating Ezekiel 18:31 from the rest of Scripture, and even from the rest of Ezekiel's prophecy, and really even from the rest of Ezekiel 18. Isolating very specific verses here and there and making the Bible out to say something other than it does is the problem. We ~ a general 'we' and not just Calvinists... ~ call that "cherry-picking."

God does not unconditionally, randomly force a new heart upon some men and not others...

There's the "forcing a new heart" meme again. It's just utterly ridiculous. God has mercy and compassion on whom He will have mercy and compassion. This is His grace, which He would be fully justified in not granting to anyone.

Clearly, obviously man has a role in his own salvation.

Clearly not. Salvation is of the Lord. The central truth of God’s saving grace is succinctly stated in the assertion, “Salvation is of the Lord.” This strong declaration means that every aspect of man’s salvation is from God and is entirely dependent upon God ~ which Paul says explicitly in Romans 9:16, that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." The only contribution that we make is the sin that was laid upon Jesus Christ at the cross. Paul affirmed this when he wrote in Romans 11:36, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.” This is to say, salvation is God determined, God purchased, God applied, and God secured. From start to finish, salvation is of the Lord alone.

When man chooses to obey God's word, it results in man being born again, having a new heart and spirit, be purified.

No, the other way around. Man being born again cannot be a result of what he has done for several reasons:

1. man is not alive before he is born and therefore cannot do or choose anything, much less to be born

2. to think man's choice results in him being born again makes faith out to be a work of man rather than a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10)

3. to think man's choice results in him being born again makes God's grace (unmerited favor) out to be the opposite of grace (merited favor). As Paul says, "...if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." (Romans 11:6)

4. to think man's choice results in him being born again is a direct contradiction to the following passages (among many others):

a. "Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (Romans 9:14-18)

b. "God... saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began..." (2 Timothy 1:9)

c. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)​

Jude 1:24 if Christians do as God says then God is able to keep Christians from falling.

Nope. Let's look at it (with verse 25):

"Now to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."​

There is absolutely nothing in there about Christians doing ~ or not doing, for that matter ~ anything. Nothing. Now, in the preceding verses, there is a call to Christians to persevere in the face of trials and tribulations ~ "keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life... have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear" (vv.21-23) ~ but this is what we are called to do since we have been the recipients of God's grace. And we are able to persevere, and will, because God is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy (vv.24-25).

This does not fit Calvinism's monergism but then that is Calvinism's problem.

The only problem is the problem that many think they have ~ because it is merely contrived ~ with Calvinism.

Grace and peace to you.