Can the seal be broken? Lack of trust? Grieve the Holy Spirit?
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1 Timothy 2:15
But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
OSAS is false teaching.
But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
OSAS is false teaching.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Sealed is the same as Saved. And none can take you from the Father's hand.
Period.
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:29
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
This does not eliminate the possibility they had been of them once (point A) turned from the faith (point B) therefore not of them at the time they went out (not of them from point B to point C).
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
It does not say they were NEVER of us, which leaves the possibility they once were of them (point A) but did not let the word of God dwell in them therefore no longer of them (at point B) and therefore not of them at the time they went out (not of them from point B to they went out at point C).
If they were of us, they would have stayed. They were not, so they left.
You seem to be saying there is some intermediate place where they are of us, and then not. But if they were of us, they would have remained, not turned, and gone out.
Much love!
And you didn't say "Mother May I?"
Did you ever play that as a child?
Much love!
ScottA
Well-Known Member
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." John 10:29
Period.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
The pronoun "them" refers back to Christ's sheep of verse 27 (John 10:27). Therefore if one is to be of "them" then one must CONDITIONALLY be of Christ's sheep. And no one can UNconditionally be of Christ's sheep for one must CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ to be of Christ's sheep. With both verbs "hear" and "follow" being in the present tense which denotes a present, sustained, ongoing action. Therefore as long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and follow Christ one will be of Christ's sheep and be of the "them". One hears and follows Christ by one's own volition and one can quit hearing and following Christ by that same volition. And if one does quit hearing and following he will no longer be a sheep of Christ and not be of the "them". The context is full of conditions whereby salvation is NOT UNconditional as some people have us think.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
No, I didn't. But the word 'never' is not in the verse.
If one who is supposedly a Christian sins and his sinning then proves he was never really a Christian, then one must live perfectly sinless to be a "real" Christian?
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
A ---------------------------------- B ----------------------------- C
At point A they could have become faithful Christians having the word of God abiding in them and remained faithful Christians until point B.
But at point B they allowed false teachings to replace the word of God so they no longer was of us at point B not heeding John's word's of 1 John 2:24.
So from point B they were not of us and continued to not be of us till they went out from us at point C. If they were of us at point C they would not have gone out from us.
They went out from us (at point C) but they were not of us (from point B to C) for if they had been of us,(at point C) they would no doubt have continued with us. John does not say they were NEVER of us but they were not of us at the time they went out from us (point C).
I am not saying the above scenario is what actually happened but what in the verse makes it impossible for it to have happened?
The verse gives a maxim, you don't need "never".
There were not of us . . . but you are assuming maybe some were? To me that doesn't work, and is an argument from silence, and conflicts with a great deal of Scripture.
Much love!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
I do not agree with this. OSASers simply assume the word 'never' into the verse. What is to stop anyone from claiming a verse is a 'maxim' and then they can add/subtract any word to that verse changing the meaning of the verse?
There's nothing regarding adding never, it remains clear as it is. If they were in fact "of us", they would ever remain with us. Plain and simple, just like I like it. Just read it for what it says, not for what it doesn't say, or might have said, just read it for what it says, and believe it.
Much love!
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Indeed, salvation has come to all, even those who will hear and not follow. However, salvation is forever, or it is not salvation, but a gift from God not fully received.
Let me put it another way: One cannot give back the gift of eternal life...because, by definition, it is forever...and if not, it is not eternal life.
The problem here, is not one of "conditions", but of misunderstanding and not having the correct definition. Or to be blunt: to say what you have said above-- You don't know what you're talking about. In which case, you should stop preaching. You use the name of God in vain.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Jesus said His sheep hear and follow, not just hear. Salvation has always been conditional, OT and NT alike. Nowhere is salvation ever described as a unconditional guarantee regardless of what the Christian does. The Christian has the promise of eternal life 1 John 2:25 (promise is something not yet realized) and can lose that promise if he does not remain faithful. Eternal life is still eternal but one can forfeit the promise by unfaithfulness.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Reading it for what it says, it says they were not of us at the time they went out from us. It does not say they were never of us when they went out from us. Big difference there.
"Such a verse as this, (1 John 2:19) of course, is made use of as a crutch for the proposition that a person "once saved is always saved"; however, it should be carefully noted that John did not here write of the false teachers that "they never had been of us," but that at an unspecified previous time, they were not. This is even more clear in the last clause where the word is not that they had never been of us, but that they are not of us. Their departure from the faith became final at some point prior to their leaving; but there is no suggestion by the apostle that those who departed had never been truly converted at the beginning of their Christian association. The fallen angels were not wicked from the beginning but became so; and Judas was not wicked when the Lord chose him as an apostle, but he fell "through transgression." Coffman Comm.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
No...you just spoke against a ton of scripture. You are just cherry picking what supports your misunderstanding of all of what is written. You are not reconciling all of scripture...which is against the Word, against Christ. There is a term for that.
With the salvation of God: "old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" 2 Corinthians 5:17. Forever. This is the evidence of salvation, without which, there is no salvation.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Not a single verse says the gift of salvation is UNconditional.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16 belief is a condition that must be met in order to have salvation. The present tense of the verb shows one must keep on believing. Combining the present tense of "believeth" with the subjunctive mood of "should" then we have one may or may not perish depending on the circumstance if one continues to believe. If one continues to believe then one should not perish. If one quits believing then one should perish.
Romans 5:1-2 faith is what gives access to grace. Charles Stanley and others who claim one can toss aside their faith and yet still be saved are then claiming one can be saved apart from grace. No verse says one has unconditional access to God's grace apart from faith. Stanley teaches such a horrendous false teaching that many unfortunately have 'swallowed hook line and sinker'.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
And now we get to the crux of the problem..
You are looking at salvation as if people by their own actions save themselves. But that is works, which saves no one.
Moreover, you are not factoring in God overall-- the fact that it is no longer we who live, but God who lives: we in Him, and Him in us, all in all.
This is the definition of salvation: It is God Himself who cannot loose His salvation, and therefore us in Him also.
On the other hand we must loose our life--that life in which you think we must be faithful. That is the opposite of salvation-- our faith is not in us, nor of us, but in and of God. Again, it is He who cannot be lost, and therefore us who are in Him also.
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