You remind me of a Scripture . . .
1 Peter 1:23 KJV
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Much love!
Can the seal be broken? Lack of trust? Grieve the Holy Spirit?
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1 Peter 1:23 KJV
23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Much love!
If this is your idea of OSAS, that's certainly not mine. We're not talking about just making a glib and false "profession of faith".
Much love!
Yes, human children die. Do you define God's children according to the corrupt children of Adam's race?
Is that so? His seed fails? Like of some grain, say, wheat, or corn?
Who are those? Once Jesus comes in, the Living Word that remains forever, you can "let it die away"? Hm.
I don't see that.
Justification is a new creation, untainted by sin.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Ton going on, so barely any time to respond, but the seed is the word of God in this parable. It "lives and abides" within those in whom its continues to grow (v.20). But does it continue to live and abide within the rest?
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
What rest?
What is it that Jesus leaves undone in those who are His?
You continue to have this idea that we aren't fundamentally different in rebirth, or so it seems to me. And that God somehow fails us.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
The rest of the examples Christ gave (i.e. besides v.20). Does the seed of the word of God continue to live and abide within them?
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
GG. Going to a Christmas Park thing tonight with the wife and her sister.
I'll check back tonight after I get home, or tomorrow.
Not mine but certainly the understanding of some especially those in the hyper-grace movement.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Ok, well now how do you explain that the 2nd group received the word with gladness if they did not get born again? What all the more confirms that both the second and third groups received the word is because the word is said to have grown well above ground in both. The 2nd group were initially growing in the word, it's just that when persecution came that growth withered away from continuing to do so. The 3rd group had to have been growing in the word strongly enough for it to have grown above ground, at which time the weeds began choking it out.
If you disagree, what you need to do is give an exacting exegesis of what each of the verses are saying to the contrary, bro.
Good times!
Could have been better.
The "band" was... just atrocious when we got there, Lol, and I'm a music guy. Just a woman and a keyboardist, and she was off key really BAD the whole time. Then when we were leaving a good group took the stage. I wanted to stay and watch them cuz they were entertaining, but we had to get back. I told my wife next year we're definitely checking the lineup before we decide on what time we're going, LoL.
From what I see, it's something used to attack those who believe in a full reconciliation to God.
FWIW . . .
Much love!
Or . . .you need to show how these are born again, and how that harmonizes to the verses I point to so often.
Anyway . . . I'll come back to this happily, as this is important to understand.
Much love!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
"They went out from us, but they were not of us;..."
It shows they were not of us at the time they went out from us. John did not say they were never of us. Even if they were never of us then all the verse proves is that a never saved person was never said, it still does not prove it is impossible for a Christian to fall away from Christ becoming an apostate.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious Ernest, as our good friend Barney would say: "This is big, big big, Really BIG!":
IF osas is a false doctrine? We Simply have more questions about:
God's Sound Doctrine:
(1) "God’s SURE Foundation Has THIS SEAL”:
“The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS!..." (2 Timothy 2:19 KJB!), Correct?
(2) HOW LONG Has "The LORD KNOWN them That Are HIS Own"?
(Ephesians 1:4-6 KJB!) = ALWAYS, Correct?
(3) For those who are LOST, how is it That The LORD Said Unto them:
“I NEVER Knew you”? (Matthew 7:21-23 KJB!) = NEVER, Correct?
Conclusion:
Thus, the doctrine of "Christ ONCE {Always?} knew one forgiven And
Eternally Saved, And, Then when they walked away, He [NEVER knew?]
Did NOT know them Any Longer, and they Became LOST!:
Is NOWHERE found God's Pure And HOLY Scripture, Correct?
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Matt 7:21, the most the verse proves is a never saved person was never saved, it still does not prove it is impossible for a Christian to fall away and become lost. In Matt 7:21 Jesus is speaking about certain individuals and what He says about those in Matt 7 cannot be made universal for there were those Jesus knew but later became lost, Judas who was one of Christ's, 'His' disciples, (Luke 6:13-16) whom Jesus kept (John 17:12) those of 2 Peter 2:1 who were once "bought" - redeemed by Christ, had been purchased and own by Christ but later fall away.
Secondly, there is lack of logic found in the OSAS that they were 'never' really saved, that is, if one quits believing , quits being a Christian then that proves he was never really saved. What if one quit smoking, does his quitting prove he NEVER really smoked? No, for one cannot quit what one never did. The quitting proves he once smoked. Hence if one quit believing then the quitting proves he once believed. If one quit being a Christian then the quitting proves he was once a Christian for again one cannot quit from what he never was. If one was always a fake Christian he can quit his faking but he cannot quit being a Christian for he was never a Christian and a never saved person was never saved. Yet a faker quitting his faking does not prove a true Christian can never fall.
The words 'apostate' and 'fall' carry the idea of one's position having changed from a saved position to a lost position. Apostate means for one to move away from a previous standing. Hence one moves from a saved standing to a lost standing. If one falls from a tree one must first be in the tree before one can fall from it. One must first be in grace in order to fall from it (Galatians 5:4). A never saved person is already fallen therefore cannot fall, he does not fall from a lost state to a lost state, he cannot fall from grace if he was never in grace, he cannot lose faith if he never had it. OSAS renders the words apostate and fall meaningless.
Lastly, there are contradictions and factions among those proponents of OSAS. There are those as Charles Stanley who say a Christian can fall away and quit believing, even become a atheist and yet still be saved. "Even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand" (Eternal Security — Can You Be Sure?, Nashville: Oliver Nelson, 1990. p74).
Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).
".....all the sins he (Christian) may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul" [Do a Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul? Sam Morris, Baptist preacher, Stamford, TX].
They may try and use 1 Corinthians 3:15 and claim that if the Christian turns to live in sin, then his sinful works will be burned yet he himself will be "saved anyway". While the other OSAS faction say if the Christian turns to live in sin then he was "never really saved", citing 1 John 2:19, Matthew 7:21.
By taking both 1 Cor 3:15; 1 John 2:19 out of context they have created a logical fallacy for one cannot be "saved anyway" and "never really saved" at the same time. So which is it?
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
So if they were never saved then the most the verse teaches us is that those who were never saved were never saved, it does not prove it is impossible for a saved person to fall. John says "they" were not of us, John did not say "all" who go out from us were not of us. So John is speaking about specific individuals (antichrists) therefore this passage cannot be used universally to include everyone who falls away from Christ.
There were false Judiazers teaching the Gentiles could not be saved unless they be circumcised. The Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss the matter, Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2). During this meeting James says of the false teachers "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24). So those false teachers were of us, of the church at Jerusalem having taught things not commanded them. Peter warned "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1). These false teachers were of the church but later deny the Lord who "bought" them, they had been redeemed, washed from sin and redeemed, bought by the Lord, had been of the Lord's possession but fell away.
====================================================================
A ------------------------------- B --------------------------------- C
They could have become Christians at point A and remained faithful until point B. Yet at point they did not let the word of God dwell in them (1 John 2:24, may have been seduced 1 John 2:26) therefore at point B were no longer of us. And from point B to the time they went out from us at point C they were not of us.
Had they been of us at point B they would have remained with us. What in the verse denies the scenario from possibly happening?
=====================================================================
So those who went out from us were either;
1) never saved (a specific example not a universal rule)
2) saved but abandoned the faith not letting the word of God dwell in them, 1 John 2:24-26; 1 John 5:16; 2 John 1:8-9 proves such.
Either case does not prove OSAS. OSAS is no more taught than OLAL (once lost always lost).
Actually, the passage says that if they were of us, the would have ever remained, so, in fact,the passage gives a maxim.
1 John 2:19 LITV
19) They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they were of us, they would have remained with us; but they left so that it might be revealed that they all are not of us.
Much love!
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