I'm thankful that I do not need the false belief in OSAS to be true. I do not need to cling to that false belief to justify my life decisions.
Can the seal be broken? Lack of trust? Grieve the Holy Spirit?
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I think you're completely misunderstanding Romans 8, but believe what you want. There are Christians who are weak in the faith and always struggle with conscience, and there are the mature who just never look back and stand confident knowing that salvation is not based upon their work, but God's.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. John 6:37-38
Please refrain from trampling on the True and faithful witness. You'll be judged by His words, not Paul's, Peter's, John's, James', or Jude's.
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-48
The pastor of the first Baptist church that I attended, spent over a year of Sundays teaching and preaching Romans 8. There isn't any hint of condemnation of saints in that passage nor anything about the loss of salvation.
If you sin a sin that leads to death and don't repent you will die. Roman Catholics distinguish such as mortals sins (as opposed to venial sins.) I don't agree with much of Catholic dogma, but that division of severity is found in scripture.
Nothing in scripture says that an individual whose flesh is destroyed because of unrepentant sin , has lost their salvation. Paul actually suggests the opposite:
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:4-5
This was written in response to the unrepentant sin of a man engaging in gross sexual immorality, the equivalent of idolatry.
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Ok, now read the verse again and tell me exactly what its saying about salvation (nothing really).
Do not lie in wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous;
Do not plunder his resting place;
16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Proverbs 24:15-16
You can read anything you want into scripture, but that just makes you a poor student of the word. That kind of pride isn't going to commend you to the Lord, but it will bring His discipline.
Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 16:18
Don't worry, when you fall, he'll pick you back up. Jesus is our Saviour and He saves to the utmost.
2 Peter 2 is a chapter not a verse. Are you confessing your hidden side? Forgive me for not valuing the testimony of "believers " with such great conviction that they hide behind false identity.
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If you went to a seminary, You should request a refund.
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37
Are you suggesting that Jesus was mistaken or lied ?
Of course you don't need to believe in OSAS. If you have His Spirit, you're saved reguardless of how simple or carnal your understanding is. So yes, thank God for His salvation. You haven't a snowflakes chance in hell of preserving your own.
The cross, the blood, God's saving grace provided a pathway to salvation for those who thru faith believed. Jesus didn't drag you or anyone else into salvation. The cross didn't give you a ticket to Heaven without your faith. OSAS believers always try to correlate his saving grace with the reason you cannot possibly fall from grace even when the scripture clearly tells us you can and some will. As a last resort, they always loop back to "never saved, to begin with". You deny apostasy. Millions are saved because someone told them they were. Someone like you. Check the box and you're good for life no matter what condition your heart is in. No matter if you reject the Spirit and surrender to the flesh. No matter if you sin willfully. A person can now commit all the sins Paul warns us about but because you were saved when you were 14 you have no worries. You can live like those who do not know Jesus. A willful non-repentant sinner will never make it to Heaven no matter who much hyper-grace you cling to.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Yes, the entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 refutes OSAS. The chapter would make no sense at all if OSAS were true.
I do not claim to be Ernest T Bass. Nothing wrong with people wanting to maintain privacy about themselves.
I'm sorry, but you're just making stuff up based upon some ridiculous label that some carnal minded person invented. OSAS is an artificial term and no one is saved by believing it. Hypergrace is another made up term made up by people who watch too much science fiction. If you have to divide God's grace up for the sake of your limited understanding, then sound theologians recognize "common grace" and "saving grace ". Common grace is the grace of God extended to all humanity. Saving Grace is the grace extended to the elect. Salvation is by God's election. Salvation is by God's will. No one seeks God. No one chooses God. However, the kiddies often think that they did because they don't know the scriptures or don't believe the plain interpretation of scripture and select which verses that they're ready to believe. The doctrine of God's election is one of the oldest in the church. I'm not going to teach it to you, but I'll provide some of the proof texts so you can look at them in context, consider what they say and decide if you believe God or not.
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
Exodus 33:19-21
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:10-11
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.
Psalm 14:2-4
For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me. Isaiah 45:4-5
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. Mark 13:20
12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.” ’ ” 2 Samuel 7:12-16
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13
7 “For a mere moment I have forsaken you,
But with great mercies I will gather you.
8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment;
But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,”
Says the Lord, your Redeemer.
9 “For this is like the waters of Noah to Me;
For as I have sworn
That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth,
So have I sworn
That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you.
Isaiah 54:7-9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1 John 3:9
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
Romans 4:7-8
Do you guys who believe that you can loose your salvation actually read the Bible?
The plain teaching of scripture is that salvation is God's work, not ours and that the new birth is a change of heart (the emotional element of the mind.)
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. Ezekiel 36:22-29
This is by no means an extensive and complete list, but if you don't believe these passages, I wouldn't expect you to believe any.
You aren't saved minute by minute, or once a week by eating a tasteless cookie. The doctrine of "assurance " is as old as the New Testament, but the warnings are to be sure of your election (that you aren't self decieved.) The self deceived aren't born again, they're the ones confident in their ability to save themselves by virtue of their will. Good luck with that.
Actually the passage says if they were of us, they would not have gone out. So that's a maxim.
Much love!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
So if they were NEVER of us then the most the verse proves is one who was never saved was never saved. Yet the verse still does not prove that it is impossible for one who was saved to fall away.
Secondly, what John says is only applicable to those particular people to whom he was talking about in that context, it cannot be universally applied to all for we do have examples, as in 2 Pet 2 and Acts 15 where those who were "of us" but did fall away.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
One commentator noted John did not use the word "never" in the verse. John did not say they were NEVER of us but that they were not of us at the time they went out from us.
A ----------------------------------- B ------------------------ C
Could it be they had at one time become Christians at point A and remained faithful Christians for some years till point B where at point B they allowed the false teachers to lead them astray. Then they quit being of us at point B and continued to not be of us till they went out from us at point C. That would seem to fit the verb usage and why John warns faithful Christians just 5 verses later "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
It could be those who went out from us had at one time faithfully allowed God's word abide in them (point A to B) but at point B did not let it remain in them by falling to false teachings, maybe of the Gnostics. Hence they quit being faithful, quit being of us at point B till they went out from us at point C. According to John, IF that word did not remain in them then they would not continue in the Son or the Father. No need for John giving such a warning if falling away were impossible.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread.
Though eis can be translated both ways, the sense in Ephesians 4:30 has to be "unto/ until," because as Mailman pointed out it is clearly the sense in Ephesians 1:14. But this does not prove beyond doubt that the seal can never be broken.
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. 1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. (Ephesians 4:30-5:7)
This passage strongly suggests that they could be deceived with empty words, and in the process get fooled into thinking that one could engage in fornication, sexual uncleanness and idolatry and still have an inheritance with God. And if they could get deceived into thinking these things, and in turn start engaging in them, doesn't that suggest that the seal of the Holy Spirit could be broken? How does one give himself over to things like a life of fornication and idolatry and the Holy Spirit still remain with Him?
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What it does prove, however, is God's intent for that seal, "unto the day of redemption", and you will not break that.
What this passage does is identify certain people, not their behaviors.
"And such were some of you", Paul writes, but then he continues, "flee fornication", and, "Honor God with your bodies". The identification is no longer the fornicator, but the admonition is to flee fornication.
Another example from the Revelation, "outside are . . . all who love and make lies", while Paul wrote, "wherefore putting away lying". We are justified, that is, born from God in righteousness, cleansed of our sins, and according are admonished in these ways. "Put off the old man", I think that encompasses fleshy thoughts and feelings, and the actions that resulf from them if they are not actively repudiated, and replaced by doing righteous acts.
But our righteousness, and our identity, is in Christ.
Much love!
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Amen! And, puny man "can NEVER break" God's Seal!
Humble men Conform To ALL Of "What God Has Said!!" Amen?
Amen!
And you shall know the TRUTH, and the TRUTH shall make you free!
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
This isn't a passage that contains those words, however, which is why you have to be careful to rightly divide and why I quoted the passage out. All that is stated here is Paul addressing them - the Ephesians - and warning them not to be deceived. If there was no danger for the Ephesians themselves, the words would not come in the form of a warning, but they do.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you... For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Now if he were simply saying here, "Don't do anything that will make Christianity look like it endorses sin," you could interpret it that way. But the next sentence would make no sense, because this is not what he says. He doesn't give as his reason for telling them this that others might get the wrong impression; he gives as his reason that he does not want them to be deceived:
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
The key fact is identity, not behavior. Your behavior condemns you if you are born from Adam. If you are born from God, there now no condemnation. We have a High Priest Who ever lives to intercede for us.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Yes, and this is why they were being warned not give themselves over to walking in disobedience instead of righteousness.
You seem to be suggesting that if one is born of incorruptible seed then that seed can never die within him, but this is contrary to not only human nature (childbirth) but also the principles of seed time and harvest. Just because seed goes into the ground and is birthed there doesn't mean it will come to full fruition, and so it is with the people of God. It is those who endure to the end who are saved, not those who let the word abide within them for a little while but then let it die away.
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