Church Bashing

[Wrangler]

No. But what about exposing the gross doctrinal errors of churches that leads to sin?

What about mind your own business?

 

[Wrangler]

whose doctrines clearly affected their personal moral values

I don't think that at all. It's that these individuals failed to live up to their own standards. They admitted as much. How you connect that to the conclusion they had wrong doctrine is sad.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I shouldn't have sassed you, my friend, even though you don't (yet) understand how broken women and men like you and me can also be holy, set apart for God's purposes. Like so, so many, I think your friend only sees in the glass darkly. Not his fault; it's the human condition, I gave you some scriptures to ponder.

Later, I may want to take up again whether Father withholds the medicine from the children, or whether the children refuse the medicine that could heal them. Right now, you have your hands full. I can only pray you persuade some to take, eat the Matzoh. And if God is using you now to tell the truth about His character, is that not a Holy purpose? If you are now walking in the Spirit, does that not make you in a sense, Holy?which is why I extend grace and hope to have grace extended to me.

(Mrs. Carlson, my high school English Composition teacher, would be appalled at how many metaphors I mixed in this post. I count three, maybe four, possibly five.)

I thought you sassed me out of frustration, thinking if I don’t believe one thing men say then I MUST believe the only other choice they say, with their doctrines, that I HAVE to believe. You thought if I abhor their one doctrine it meant I accept their other one. I actually understand your frustration.

As for holiness, which you talk about next, I think you to be saying that I don’t understand how men like you and me can be holy, which you define as set apart for Gods purposes. I think that’s actually a good definition, but you have to be careful concerning holiness, because if you use that good definition, you have to also see what God says must be done with a clay pot set aside for His use in the temple when that clay pot is used for some common purpose other than His. It must be destroyed. It can’t be cleaned and used for Him again. So if you are holy, you are set aside ONLY for Him, and that’s not you and I.
So you have to have great humility and carefulness with and in holiness. There is no sin in holiness. Not a speck. One misstep with a clay pot set aside for Him and it had to be destroyed. It is said, and I believe it, that the man who went into the holy of holies once a year had to have a rope tied around him in case he even unwittingly did something to offend the holiness of God because no one dared go in to get him. So you get a sense of the fear of God that would say, you go talk to God, Moses, and tell us what He says, because if we go, we will die.
Better to learn righteousness and be acceptable to God and have a place made for you than to do as Ananias and Saphira did! A living dog is better than a dead dog!

Men have mixed and confused righteousness and holiness and the result has been no fear of Gods holiness at all. But, I do understand that God chooses who He will bring into His holiness and they perform miracles and walk IN the Spirit rather than just being led by the Spirit. And that’s not you and I. I haven’t even met such a man and it’s because we are very weak, having not even made distinction between what is holy and what is not. We’ve been taught to say every one of us is holy when we haven’t even learned what righteousness is!

You have taken a very wise course to say we see through a glass darkly and that’s why you extend grace in the hope to receive grace. You have escaped the indoctrination of mercilessness by humility and carefulness.

Yes, now that I understand what you mean by your “giving medicine or withholding medicine”, we could have that conversation at some point. It won’t go the way you expect. The verses must all fit together, not be used against one another. If we want to get rid of the frustration, we can’t pick one of two sides men say we have to but must instead start with the sure premise that BOTH sets of verses are true.
As my friend says, there are ditches on BOTH sides of a road.

 

[Brakelite]

I reject the premise of your question. Scripture talks about offenses contrary to doctrine, not contrary doctrine. Scripture talks about judging action and choices - not beliefs - as the basis for marking.

Fair point. The church in that case is doing the judging of an individual's actions, contrary to sound doctrine. So it's the church doing the bashing, so to speak, and tongue in cheek.

In addition, Scripture is talking about marking individuals, not whole churches. Finally, Scripture is not condoning church bashing.

Well, I believe you are wrong there. Right now, in this very day and age, we have a growing church with a cup of false doctrine which she is about to foist upon all the nations. Some have already drunk, and have gone stark raving mad. That church has fallen, fallen. And if God's people don't get the heck out, and quickly, they are in for a very rough time.

What about mind your own business?

So. When an institution teaches something the opposite to sound doctrine, you think it none of our business that she has set herself as a vehicle to propel people to damnation? Oh, of course not, because doctrine isn't important, it doesn't affect our salvation right? Wrong. There is an institution that flatly rejects the redemption of man through the finished work of Christ's suffering and death as an Atonement for sin and teaches that Christ's life, Mary's life, and the lives of saints and a few hangers on have built up a bank account of merit from which we withdraw to our own benefit so as to reduce the punishment for sin. We receive these through indulgences.. Yes, they still issue these if you practise a few religious exercises. But we can't talk about that can we... It's bashing?

 

[Wrangler]

Well, I believe you are wrong there. Right now, in this very day and age, we have a growing church with a cup of false doctrine

Isn't religious liberty great?

No one gets to decide what is 'false doctrine.'

 

[David H.]

Isn't religious liberty great?

No one gets to decide what is 'false doctrine.'

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4)

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. (2 Peter 2:18-19)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Isn't religious liberty great?

No one gets to decide what is 'false doctrine.'

That sounds great! Every man does what is right in his own eyes. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Wrangler]

When an institution teaches something the opposite to sound doctrine, you think it none of our business that she has set herself as a vehicle to propel people to damnation?

Correct.

Do you recall Jesus saying do not resist evil? What does this mean? It means the EXACT OPPOSITE of what supporters of church bashers are defending.

There is an institution that flatly rejects the redemption of man through the finished work of Christ's suffering ... But we can't talk about that can we... It's bashing?

Do you grasp the difference between 'talking about' something and 'bashing' something? We are supposed to love and pray for our enemies, not bash them. And I doubt Christ followers with different doctrines are even our enemy.

Obviously, many Christians have made 'sound doctrine' an idol. This idolatry feeds into the original sin of pride, leading to a God Complex. As Nietzsche said, be careful of the monster you hunt that you do not become the monster.

 

[Wrangler]

That sounds great! Every man does what is right in his own eyes. What could possibly go wrong?

Oy vey. My fellow man is not the boss of me. Jesus will judge. Jesus IS the judge. That job is already taken. Why do so many seek to usurp the role of Jesus?

 

[Lambano]

I thought you sassed me out of frustration, thinking if I don’t believe one thing men say then I MUST believe the only other choice they say, with their doctrines, that I HAVE to believe. You thought if I abhor their one doctrine it meant I accept their other one. I actually understand your frustration.

As for holiness, which you talk about next, I think you to be saying that I don’t understand how men like you and me can be holy, which you define as set apart for Gods purposes. I think that’s actually a good definition, but you have to be careful concerning holiness, because if you use that good definition, you have to also see what God says must be done with a clay pot set aside for His use in the temple when that clay pot is used for some common purpose other than His. It must be destroyed. It can’t be cleaned and used for Him again. So if you are holy, you are set aside ONLY for Him, and that’s not you and I.
So you have to have great humility and carefulness with and in holiness. There is no sin in holiness. Not a speck. One misstep with a clay pot set aside for Him and it had to be destroyed. It is said, and I believe it, that the man who went into the holy of holies once a year had to have a rope tied around him in case he even unwittingly did something to offend the holiness of God because no one dared go in to get him. So you get a sense of the fear of God that would say, you go talk to God, Moses, and tell us what He says, because if we go, we will die.
Better to learn righteousness and be acceptable to God and have a place made for you than to do as Ananias and Saphira did! A living dog is better than a dead dog!

Men have mixed and confused righteousness and holiness and the result has been no fear of Gods holiness at all. But, I do understand that God chooses who He will bring into His holiness and they perform miracles and walk IN the Spirit rather than just being led by the Spirit. And that’s not you and I. I haven’t even met such a man and it’s because we are very weak, having not even made distinction between what is holy and what is not. We’ve been taught to say every one of us is holy when we haven’t even learned what righteousness is!

You have taken a very wise course to say we see through a glass darkly and that’s why you extend grace in the hope to receive grace. You have escaped the indoctrination of mercilessness by humility and carefulness.

Yes, now that I understand what you mean by your “giving medicine or withholding medicine”, we could have that conversation at some point. It won’t go the way you expect. The verses must all fit together, not be used against one another. If we want to get rid of the frustration, we can’t pick one of two sides men say we have to but must instead start with the sure premise that BOTH sets of verses are true.
As my friend says, there are ditches on BOTH sides of a road.

You read me (and know me; for some reason you have the ability to pull things out about myself that I wouldn't tell others) well enough, and you were right about that. But I sent you a couple of scriptures indicating that God considers ALL His people "holy"; I'll let you think about that for a while. I don't want to distract you while you are doing God's purposes, or I might be in trouble for really messing with God's holiness, the type of trouble you mentioned. I also trust He won't destroy you after you accomplish this particular purpose. At least, I hope not; I'd miss you. He'll just clean you up for your next purpose. And what God has called clean, let no man call common. (Acts 10:15) I'll think about what you said about the ditches. Bring a winch; you may have to pull me out of one of those ditches some day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I must have missed a post of yours…I’ll go backwards and look!

 

[Enoch111]

You are advocating some form of life in eternity...a life that communicates, feels pain, anguish, suffering, despair.

I am only presenting what the Bible presents. We should take heed to this:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)
"for ever and ever" = eternally

Jesus said that Hell (Gehenna = the Lake of Fire) was created for the devil and his angels. We see here that the torment of (1) the Devil, (2)the Beast (the Antichrist), and (3) the False Prophet, is for eternity. Also for those who take the Mark of the Beast.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. - Deuteronomy 7:6

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; -1 Peter 2:9

(I'm just sassin' you.)

In the Incarnation, the Holy and the Broken meet.

Ah, it took me forever to find this! This is the post you were talking about?
Peter also said this, before he said the verse you quoted:
15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”

Do you think you are holy in everything you do? Is your answer that you are holy because God chose to show you mercy and grace, therefore you must be holy since Peter says you are holy there?

 

[Brakelite]

Isn't religious liberty great?

No one gets to decide what is 'false doctrine.'

I can use my discernment to judge false doctrine... But I won't coerce anyone into believing as I do, nor denigrate them for believing as they do. That's religious liberty.

 

[Lambano]

Ah, it took me forever to find this! This is the post you were talking about?
Peter also said this, before he said the verse you quoted:
15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.”

Do you think you are holy in everything you do? Is your answer that you are holy because God chose to show you mercy and grace, therefore you must be holy since Peter says you are holy there?

Yes. We have an obligation to behave in a holy manner because we ARE holy, we are God's own possession. Whether or not we meet the obligations of any relationship (including our relationship with God) would be a "righteousness" issue, using the categories you have established.

 

[Brakelite]

Correct.

Do you recall Jesus saying do not resist evil? What does this mean? It means the EXACT OPPOSITE of what supporters of church bashers are defending.



Do you grasp the difference between 'talking about' something and 'bashing' something? We are supposed to love and pray for our enemies, not bash them. And I doubt Christ followers with different doctrines are even our enemy.

Obviously, many Christians have made 'sound doctrine' an idol. This idolatry feeds into the original sin of pride, leading to a God Complex. As Nietzsche said, be careful of the monster you hunt that you do not become the monster.

That is a load of nonsense. So we leave Babylon alone to destroy people at will? No protest? So you defend stoutly your opinion of the place of the Son outside of the Godhead, your doctrine, criticizing trinitarians as unknowledgeable cowards, yet criticize others for disputing with false doctrine in churches, calling it bashing!

 

[Wrangler]

That is a load of nonsense. So we leave Babylon alone to destroy people at will? No protest?

I have no idea what you are asking but it seems like the answer is no.

 

[Brakelite]

"for ever and ever" = eternally

I am sure you have read posts in the past that explain why for ever and ever does not mean eternally. And they give examples from scripture where it is clearly a limited time.
Eternal fire for example does not mean that the thing it burns continues to exist. Jude7 for example.

 

[Brakelite]

I have no idea what you are asking but it seems like the answer is no.

Pleased to hear it. How does one differentiate between protesting and what those in Babylon would claim is bashing?

 

[Brakelite]

What about mind your own business?

A global church with global political influence having huge impact on entertainment, education, teaches evolution, accepts homosexuality, gender fluidity, works based salvation and it's an enemy to religious liberty, and it's none of our business?