Church Bashing

[farouk]

At the end of the day, I'm conflicted over eternal torment, I have the same objections everyone has. I find a part of me would like that people not suffer eternally. And I read passages that seem to say to me very clearly that some will. I find the thought horrifying, even as Jude wrote, some save with compassion, some with fear. But I don't attach that fear to the child of God, of whom there is no condemnation, for whom Jesus Christ ever lives to make intercession for us.

And what do is to capture those thoughts that seem to me to disagree with the Bible, which is given to keep us from error, as well as bring us salvation.

As hidden as the spiritual doctrines of truth are, the doctrines refuting error are easily found, and comprehensive. I've not found an error yet that doesn't have a straightforward refutation in the Bible.

But I capture those thoughts, and don't let them progress, and instead reflect on the Word, and if in any way I lack trust in God over the matter, I shelve it, and in this case, I simply know that God is righteous and true, and His ways are beyond mine, too wonderful for me, that is, inscrutable.

Much love!

In the end, our trust is on the basis of Job 13.15: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"....

 

[Lambano]

How would he pay?

How much do you have to pay, to pay for your sins?

Much love!

An interesting point. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, he owed 10,000 talents. One commentary mentioned that this was more than the national budget of Rome at that time. Where's he going to get that kind of money? As I told Nancy, it may be that there are opportunities for repentance in Hades, the asylum for the theologically insane. But where the scripture is silent, I must be silent also.

 

[Lambano]

I'm well familiar with the idea. But that doesn't change my opinion of it.

And rather than discuss the paradoxes in theology as a concept, let's look at specific passages that are thought to show a paradox. I haven't found them. Have you?

Much love!

While would not dismiss the theological contradictions that are derived from scripture, I started off this sub-thread with the question of, how did Judas die? Did he hang himself, per Matthew, or fall and splatter his guts out, per Acts? You have to invent something not in the text to reconcile them, like the theory that the rope broke and he was in a very tall tree... My point is that such inventions should not be necessary.

 

[BarneyFife]

At the end of the day, I'm conflicted over eternal torment, I have the same objections everyone has. I find a part of me would like that people not suffer eternally. And I read passages that seem to say to me very clearly that some will. I find the thought horrifying, even as Jude wrote, some save with compassion, some with fear. But I don't attach that fear to the child of God, of whom there is no condemnation, for whom Jesus Christ ever lives to make intercession for us.

And what do is to capture those thoughts that seem to me to disagree with the Bible, which is given to keep us from error, as well as bring us salvation.

As hidden as the spiritual doctrines of truth are, the doctrines refuting error are easily found, and comprehensive. I've not found an error yet that doesn't have a straightforward refutation in the Bible.

But I capture those thoughts, and don't let them progress, and instead reflect on the Word, and if in any way I lack trust in God over the matter, I shelve it, and in this case, I simply know that God is righteous and true, and His ways are beyond mine, too wonderful for me, that is, inscrutable.

Much love!

It's much simpler for me. God is love. Eternal torment is cruel tyranny--not love. :)

 

[farouk]

It's much simpler for me. God is love. Eternal torment is cruel tyranny--not love. :)

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21.27)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All three mentions of the Outer Darkness are in Jesus's Parables, which is a strong contextual reason to treat it like a figure of speech.

That might be difficult. Well, I guess it has been difficult. So much so that men just decide the outer darkness is the lake of fire because they don’t know what to do with it. But that just makes no sense to me so I can’t accept it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I see nothing in the Bible that would suggest to me that Jesus went into the Lake of Fire.

Much love!

thanks for replying, I can think of a few, for example: His feet [were] like burnish bronze when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was the sound of many waters. In His right hand he held the seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword. his face was like the sun shining in its strength. When I saw Him, I fell (at His feet) as a dead man. He placed His right hand in me, saying “do not be afraid. I am the first and the last.”
then the part where He says “I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

also “I have chosen you out of the furnace” for me implies He went in? Also going back to Daniel’s friends, which sounds familiar: “if we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and He will rescue us from your hands. O king.

also: what you meant for evil, God meant it for good. destroyed or refined?

 

[Nancy]

That might be difficult. Well, I guess it has been difficult. So much so that men just decide the outer darkness is the lake of fire because they don’t know what to do with it. But that just makes no sense to me so I can’t accept it.

Ever wonder why Jesus calls them “the sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness” Sounds like maybe they are actually saved but only believed in Jesus for their salvation so, they were slothful in living "for Christ" and were wearing their own "righteousness" rather than Christs? Like, "mine's good enough, don't need the Kings."

Maybe they were just excluded from the feast, or the thousand year reign and would be then allowed into God's presence after their weeping and gnashing.

I also read that these were speaking of Jews who thought that their being born a Jew would give them entrance to the feast. Lot's of ideas on this, for sure. Personally I don't believe it is hell as...it is dark!!

 

[Lambano]

That might be difficult. Well, I guess it has been difficult. So much so that men just decide the outer darkness is the lake of fire because they don’t know what to do with it. But that just makes no sense to me so I can’t accept it.

Interpreting Parables 101. Who's who in the parable? What do the things in the parable represent? What are the unexpected plot twists? What lesson is being taught?

This is where your paradigm of trying to fit together pieces that weren't meant to fit together gives me more cognitive dissonance.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I also read that these were speaking of Jews who thought that their being born a Jew would give them entrance

Yeah, and…I sometimes get an overall…sense that we be the seed of Abraham is repeating today with we be the seed of the Holy Spirit…it starts to sound when I listen to people that they think God tied His own hands. They don’t seem to see any of the warnings as for us because the doctrines just…do away with fear and humility. Every warning is like…no, you need to understand WHO Jesus was talking to, that warning was for Israel not for us, we be the seed of the Holy Spirit. Or…no, when Jesus says you won’t be forgiven if you don’t forgive doesn’t mean you won’t be forgiven it just means you’ll lose some cool prizes. It’s like…they say they honor the words from God but then…they dishonor them. And it makes you really scared for them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Interpreting Parables 101. Who's who in the parable? What do the things in the parable represent? What are the unexpected plot twists? What lesson is being taught?

This is where your paradigm of trying to fit together pieces that weren't meant to fit together gives me more cognitive dissonance.

Im sorry. I just can’t accept it. I’m sorry that distresses you. Things have to make sense to me with the rest of scripture. I’ll invite you to do the same thing I invited marks to do, which he declined - tell us what the parable means and who it’s meant for.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The only real Church is the Body of Christ. and that's all that truly matters, no one can undermine that.

 

[Lambano]

Im sorry. I just can’t accept it. I’m sorry that distresses you. Things have to make sense to me with the rest of scripture. I’ll invite you to do the same thing I invited marks to do, which he declined - tell us what the parable means and who it’s meant for.

Nah, don't you mind me. I'll just grab a beer and sit back and watch two of my favorite people on this board having fun doing what they enjoy doing and sassing one another. I keep forgetting I don't need to fix people who have wrong ideas.

Which parable were you and MarkS talking about? With all the excitement, I kind of lost track.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nah, don't you worry about me. I'll just grab a beer and sit back and watch two of my favorite people on this board having fun doing what they enjoy doing and sassing one another. I keep forgetting I don't need to fix people who have wrong ideas.

Which parable were you and MarkS talking about? With all the excitement, I kind of lost track.

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

So I believe you, marks and I are that servant who was forgiven a debt we could not pay. Marks doesn’t think so, but he can’t say what the parable means because he says I won’t believe him if he tells me what it means. I think the prison is the outer darkness. So then a discussion ensued about how you have to know WHO the parable is for because it’s not for us, and you seemed to agree…

 

[Lambano]

23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

Who's who? The King is God. The Servant is each one of us who hears Jesus's words. The fellow servant? Another believer, a brother or sister who has in whatever way ever trespassed against us. The debt? The debt is our offenses. According to one commentary, 10,000 talents was more than the Roman Empire's yearly tax receipts. Think trillions of US dollars, not millions. As MarkS said many times, our debt is not repayable. When the Unforgiving Servant went to prison, he was going to stay there until he died or until the King decided to have mercy on him again. The prison? The prison is an unpleasant place to which God could send us until we finally die. It could be flames, it could be darkness, it could be something appropriate to our individual offenses; see Dante's Inferno and what happens in the Pit of the Flatterers. (If you haven't read the book, it's really gross - but in twisted way, appropriate for Flatterers.) The exact nature of the Prison doesn't matter; do you understand that? Lessons Learned: Our brothers' and sisters' offenses against us are trivial compared to our offenses against God. God is willing to forgive us; go thou and do likewise. Applicability: Jesus is teaching us, the servants of the King, those who hear the Teacher's words. (Score one point for Jen.) He's obviously teaching us how He wants us to behave; He's not talking about what happens to the other guy. Well, what about non-believers? They're outside the scope of this teaching. ("What's that to you? You follow me!") How does this fit with the rest of the Bible? This should make every Protestant uneasy - it shows a believer losing his forgiven status. Is this something that actually happens, or does Jesus just want His followers contemplating what could happen if God decided to treat us the way we treat each other?

I'm leaving that last question open-ended. Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.

 

[Brakelite]

God killed everyone in the world with a flood, save 8 persons

This is not the point of the parable. The point is about lack of forgiveness. If you fail to forgive, for that reason, will you suffer.

The parable says nothing about the man who owed much but his debt was forgiven, THEN had his debt re-instated.

So whose debt was he paying off if not his own?

 

[Brakelite]

I think we're better of not preferring one teaching over another because we like it better. I don't think that a very good determiner of truth.

I do admit though it seems to be commonly used.

Much love!

Even though liking something better may be a direct reflection of the Spirit of God within us? I think conscience is a reliable backstop when both sides of a doctrinal dispute fail to convince. Also as corroboration to truth.

 

[Brakelite]

Well, that’s the point, they aren’t entering into glory. They are going to the shame of outer darkness, what I think is the pay the last farthing place. We aren’t talking about unbelievers. We’re talking about believers. We’re talking about people given the down payment of the Spirit. People given eternal life. This is why the mercy of annihilation would not be the worst fate. If (If) outer darkness is forever, ITS the worst fate. That would make the worst fate be for those in the outer darkness rather than those annihilated as men teach. Which makes the warnings of utmost importance to US, not to unbelievers. You will be judged as you have judged starts looking much different.

Here’s the end of Romans 1: 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

And here’s the next thing in the book:

2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?

So you see that murder being anger in your heart matters very, very much.
And you see that not judging unbelievers matters very, very much.
You begin to see that your righteousness must exceed their righteousness matters very, very much.
That is the point where you begin to hunger for righteousness.

The wages of sin is death. Our discussion really hinges on our definition of death. That last farthing is the last final breath. Then oblivion. Debt paid. Life given.

 

[Enoch111]

Then oblivion. Debt paid. Life given.

Really? Then there is no need for the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned*. (Mk 16:15,16)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
...simply, of God condemning one to eternal misery: passive, Mark 16:16; 1 Corinthians 11:32;

But Thayer was not biblical enough. "Misery" is really "torment" in the Bible (Rev 20:10). Is that "oblivion"? Now do you see how absurd your position is?

 

[Brakelite]

Really? Then there is no need for the Gospel.

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned*. (Mk 16:15,16)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
...simply, of God condemning one to eternal misery: passive, Mark 16:16; 1 Corinthians 11:32;

But Thayer was not biblical enough. "Misery" is really "torment" in the Bible (Rev 20:10). Is that "oblivion"? Now do you see how absurd your position is?

The wages of sin, ultimately, after an appropriate period of punishment, is death. You are advocating that sinners receive eternal life. That they continue to live as you suggest, in misery, (one has to be alive to feel anything, including misery) is what is absurd. It is unbiblical in the extreme.
You are ascribing to sinners, a form of natural immortality, which you will admit is a necessary gift to the righteous. An immortality which scripture declared belongs only to God. You know this. You have read the scriptures numerous times. You cannot deny them, thus in order to defend your position you must redefine the terms.
Death no longer means death.
Immortality belongs to everyone.
God's immortality is 'different'.
The eternal life that sinners experience in hell is actually eternal death/torment.
The clear declarations of scripture that says sinners are destroyed are also redefined. I won't write you on that one because everyone's redefinition is different.