Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

Those circumstances however are limited to our peace. There was a time a led my family away from God's will. Outwardly, looking at our circumstances one wouldn't know. Inwardly was another matter entirely.

not grasping what you’re saying here.

 

[amadeus]

t

I think we’ve all lived through an indiscriminate “trying to help” after we meet God and getting beat up for it. If we see no other good from it (and we very possibly DONT see it all) we at least can see we learned to not be so naive as to believe everything someone says about themselves.

Amen!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There's actually a 3rd and a 4th party that I'm talking about. Sorry to have confused you.

Once again, I can only imagine because I’m not the one they’re talking with, you are. If it’s sexual, it could be anything from swinging to child molestation to homosexuality if there are 4 people involved. If not sexual, it could be drugs that four are involved in. Actually, I’m getting the sense it’s drugs, but I could be wrong. Since I don’t know where senses like that may be coming from, I tend to largely ignore them.

It still comes down to trust. It’s like quiet thinker said, there’s all kinds of systems and programs and men trying to help but all that is just busy brickmaking really, and it can keep us from the one thing necessary - trusting God for everything. Like, literally, everything.

 

[amadeus]

Good question brother,
Yet, are we to just allow any and all to use us? Take advantage of us all the time? Got to draw the line somewhere or you'd be out of house and home. If my red flag goes up now, it is high and very bright! Will never again let someone who tries to make "fast friends" in again to my home. If the discernment I prayed for for years was answered (I think it was) then, there will be no hesitation on my part with something like that to simply say, "no, I'm sorry but, I am better alone". Off they will go to someone else. The person dropped at my house was too proud to go to The City Mission! And, it is NICE now...private rooms, 3 squares, sermons daily, all kinds of folks to help them with finding jobs, places to live and such. Some just want someone else to do ALL the work while they sit on their duff, and I'm not having any of that ever again. The bible say's, you don't work then you don't eat. We are Christians, not doormats and, it's how we can be taken advantage of so easily I think

Amen, sister! Not long after we moved to Oklahoma we got burned very badly by a "nice" young couple who expressed their need for help. We never even suspected that such a young couple could have already learned to take advantage of the kindness of others. We later learned that it was scam from the start

We were striving to be good Christian people so naturally we helped them. The financially part hurt only a little as I was still working and getting lots of overtime, but the pain of their smiling faces and honest sounding words remains to this day.

It really could have been a lot worse because we did take them into our home and give them a bed to sleep in for a night. We must learn to hear from God in situations like that.

You don't want to deny a real need when you have the means, but neither do you want to feed the devil and hurt yourself or others in the process.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think we’ve all lived through an indiscriminate “trying to help” after we meet God and getting beat up for it. If we see no other good from it (and we very possibly DONT see it all) we at least can see we learned to not be so naive as to believe everything someone says about themselves.

Actually…a connection just popped into my mind on this…it’s like the men trying to cast out a demon that beat them all up. It’s trying to do something without the power that would make it successful. That doesn’t mean don’t try to be polite, helpful and kind, that’s what socialization has taught us to do and it’s not wrong to do.
But God doesn’t want us to be going and trying to be good and loving in our own strength, without power. Be helpful if you can, yes, but with the discernment you’ve learned about drunks and addicts. But also, remember, He told the disciples not to do anything until they’d received power. Yes, I realize we have little strength remaining, but if we focus on and insist on trust, I don’t think we will remain that way. It’s really time to see the institutional church has no power and has a form of godliness but without the power. It’s time to start saying, where is the God of Abraham and Moses? Where is THAT God and how the heck can you help anyone without the power??

 

[amadeus]

Hmmm, I don't think it was a coincidence, just doesn't sit well...God had His hand in that I would say.
Has there been any more news on that nodule btw?

Still no definite helpful results from all of the tests.

Tuesday [1-11] I go in for a biopsy. They will do a special CAT scan to be used as a road-map in conjunction with something like a GPS which allows the surgeon using some kind of device inserted down through my airway to find the thing precisely and take a sample.

The surgeon described three possible results:

1) A treatable infection,
2) A cancer probably requiring surgery, or
3) A benign growth which would have to be watched carefully.

I will post any results to the prayer thread when I am able. Of course, they'll knock me out on Tuesday.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We Need Not See All Points Alike

Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of righteousness by faith? Why try to work out every minute point, as if the salvation of the soul depended upon all having exactly your understanding of this matter? All cannot see in the same line of vision.

It is not essential for you to know and tell others all the whys and wherefores as to what constitutes the new heart, or as to the position they can and must reach so as never to sin. You have no such work to do. All are not constituted alike. Conversions are not all alike.

A Perfect Heart Is More Essential Than a Perfect Theology

There is to be no dread of anyone being borne down even in a widespread apostasy, who has a living experience in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If Jesus be formed within, the hope of glory, the illiterate as well as the educated can bear the testimony of our faith, saying, "I know in whom I have believed." Some will not, in argument, be able to show wherein their adversary is wrong, having never had any advantages that others have had, yet these are not overborne by the apostasy because they have the evidence in their own heart that they have the truth, and the most subtle reasoning and assaults of Satan cannot move them from their knowledge of the truth and they have not a doubt or fear that they are themselves in error.

"I want," says one, "to reason out this matter." Well, reason it out if you can. "The wind bloweth where it listeth," and you hear the sound thereof, but you cannot explain it. And no more can you explain the things of God upon the human heart. You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ’s righteousness into your life. Clothed with the righteousness of Christ and not your own righteousness, you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do.

He saves us because He said He would. Are we going to go into all the explanations as to how He can save us? Do we have the goodness in ourselves that will make us better and cleanse us from the spots and stains of sin, enabling us then to come to God? We simply cannot do it.

Christ crucified, Christ risen, Christ ascended into the heavens, Christ coming again, should so soften, gladden, and fill the mind of the minister that he will present these truths to the people in love and deep earnestness.

I love Him! I love Him! I see in Jesus matchless charms. I see in Him everything to be desired by the children of men. Let us come to the "Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Let us, through His merits and righteousness, obtain a fitting up for heaven.

My gosh I really liked all these posts Barny! I’m very glad I remembered to come back to them when I had time!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, agreed but it still does make one hate themselves even more! It IS necessary and shows that the Holy Spirit is indeed working within, yeah, a very good thing! I have zero confidence in myself as, my choices have been so bad in life, I trust Him. When His light shines in all the corners of our hearts, no it is not pleasant, and not meant to be. From there, it is immediate repentance but, still, the sins of the past can linger even though we have been forgiven. It's bitter sweet to me.
Then, seeking His strength to overcome those tough ones...

You know what…yes, you’re right. When I think about it, I did go through that hatred - of others first , then of myself when I finally saw I was EXACTLY like them. and I do think it’s necessary to go through because you have to hate your life to finally say, okay Lord, I see I’m uninhabitable for You and I’ve become uninhabitable even for me, Please kill me, I now agree and am willing to die.

 

[Lambano]

Once again, I can only imagine because I’m not the one they’re talking with, you are. If it’s sexual, it could be anything from swinging to child molestation to homosexuality if there are 4 people involved. If not sexual, it could be drugs that four are involved in. Actually, I’m getting the sense it’s drugs, but I could be wrong. Since I don’t know where senses like that may be coming from, I tend to largely ignore them.

It still comes down to trust. It’s like quiet thinker said, there’s all kinds of systems and programs and men trying to help but all that is just busy brickmaking really, and it can keep us from the one thing necessary - trusting God for everything. Like, literally, everything.

My goodness, young lady, the way your mind works! But it's my fault; I should've said we are talking about two separate individuals and two distinct situations where they feel powerless in the face of their own penchant for sinning. And I don't have any power to help anybody anyways.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My goodness, young lady, the way your mind works! But it's my fault; I should've said we are talking about two separate individuals and two distinct situations where they feel powerless in the face of their own penchant for sinning. And I don't have any power to help anybody anyways.

Lol. Well you said a third and fourth…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There's actually a 3rd and a 4th party that I'm talking about. Sorry to have confused you.

Right here you said it you ding dong…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My goodness, young lady, the way your mind works! But it's my fault; I should've said we are talking about two separate individuals and two distinct situations where they feel powerless in the face of their own penchant for sinning. And I don't have any power to help anybody anyways.

Well, actually, as it turns out, you do have some power. You have Gods words to try to help build up someone’s trust. You also have some power with your own testimony of a similar situation where you had a breakdown and felt God hated you just as this person you’re talking to feels. You know how He brought you out of that, so…how did that happen? What things did He show YOU that made you see He didn’t hate you?

 

[Nancy]

You know what…yes, you’re right. When I think about it, I did go through that hatred - of others first , then of myself when I finally saw I was EXACTLY like them. and I do think it’s necessary to go through because you have to hate your life to finally say, okay Lord, I see I’m uninhabitable for You and I’ve become uninhabitable even for me, Please kill me, I now agree and am willing to die.

Awesome word Jen! Exactly how it is for me. As long as we hate our lives for the right reasons and not just because we are not content, or unhappy, lonely, depressed...we hate our lives to the death because of the sin we see when His light shines upon it...can come out of nowhere...and boy, talk about eye openers. Can really hit to the core when we really see what has been in our hearts.

 

[Nancy]

Still no definite helpful results from all of the tests.

Tuesday [1-11] I go in for a biopsy. They will do a special CAT scan to be used as a road-map in conjunction with something like a GPS which allows the surgeon using some kind of device inserted down through my airway to find the thing precisely and take a sample.

The surgeon described three possible results:

1) A treatable infection,
2) A cancer probably requiring surgery, or
3) A benign growth which would have to be watched carefully.

I will post any results to the prayer thread when I am able. Of course, they'll knock me out on Tuesday.

I am surely praying for number three my bro! And that the tests will go smoothly.

 

[Nancy]

Amen, sister! Not long after we moved to Oklahoma we got burned very badly by a "nice" young couple who expressed their need for help. We never even suspected that such a young couple could have already learned to take advantage of the kindness of others. We later learned that it was scam from the start

We were striving to be good Christian people so naturally we helped them. The financially part hurt only a little as I was still working and getting lots of overtime, but the pain of their smiling faces and honest sounding words remains to this day.

It really could have been a lot worse because we did take them into our home and give them a bed to sleep in for a night. We must learn to hear from God in situations like that.

You don't want to deny a real need when you have the means, but neither do you want to feed the devil and hurt yourself or others in the process.

Well put brother, couldn't have put it near as well. Thank you! It is so unreal how underhanded seemingly "decent people" can be to your face, no conscience there. Wow.

 

[Nancy]

Actually…a connection just popped into my mind on this…it’s like the men trying to cast out a demon that beat them all up. It’s trying to do something without the power that would make it successful. That doesn’t mean don’t try to be polite, helpful and kind, that’s what socialization has taught us to do and it’s not wrong to do.
But God doesn’t want us to be going and trying to be good and loving in our own strength, without power. Be helpful if you can, yes, but with the discernment you’ve learned about drunks and addicts. But also, remember, He told the disciples not to do anything until they’d received power. Yes, I realize we have little strength remaining, but if we focus on and insist on trust, I don’t think we will remain that way. It’s really time to see the institutional church has no power and has a form of godliness but without the power. It’s time to start saying, where is the God of Abraham and Moses? Where is THAT God and how the heck can you help anyone without the power??

"But God doesn’t want us to be going and trying to be good and loving in our own strength, without power."

Tru dat sister! But when one is not quite sure if something is or is not His will? We as a church, in toto, are very weak in these days. It is all as the bible say's that is happening now...we are in the birth pangs, I think. The only way ANYONE will get in this house ever again is if I know them well, their fruits, their ways, their faith.

BTW-my niece twice now asked me to pray with her!!! Now, THAT is total answer to prayer, she is being convicted and seems happy and sad at the same time. She want's to abstain from sexual relations with her B/F. She wears her heart on her sleeve and gets heart broken easily. I think her dilemma is that he might not want her anymore? I don't know but, I DO know that God IS drawing her and I PRAY HARD for her B/F as, I do like him but, he grew up with no faith at all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But when one is not quite sure if something is or is not His will?

Ive prayed quite often when I had to make some decision as to which one was His will. He never answered me. So then I began saying, okay, I’ll wait a week and then if you don’t answer I’ll do my best and just know and trust that you’re guiding my steps since you said it and I believe it. He has never once answered me, although when I was very new to Him I convinced myself all kinds of silly things were Him giving direction.
It never occurred to me to draw straws though…

 

[Nancy]

Ive prayed quite often when I had to make some decision as to which one was His will. He never answered me. So then I began saying, okay, I’ll wait a week and then if you don’t answer I’ll do my best and just know and trust that you’re guiding my steps since you said it and I believe it. He has never once answered me, although when I was very new to Him I convinced myself all kinds of silly things were Him giving direction.
It never occurred to me to draw straws though…

Ah, yes of course! It is exactly this way concerning putting my house on the market...have not heard from Him either way there so...making the plans to do just that and if a house does not open up for me, then I will continue to pray and trust anyhow. Love how He opens doors nobody can shut and closes doors nobody can open :)

Drawing straws, lol...like casting lots as they did allot in the bible:
also talk about casting lots to know His will so, why shouldn't we when things are not so clear?

Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord."... Leviticus 16:8; Jonah 1:7; and Acts 1:26; The lot puts an end to contentions, and decides between the mighty. Proverbs 18:18 also talk about casting lots to know His will

 

[amadeus]

...
It never occurred to me to draw straws though…

Perhaps my answer here will seem complicated, but is it so complicated for God the One who is supposed to be leading us.

Consider this thing of drawing straws to find God's decision. It really is not arbitrarily determined or just dumb luck, is it? How does God speak to us?

Is that not what they often did in the OT when they went to the priests to get direction from God by drawing or throwing dice or...by lot? What was the purpose of the Urim and the Thummin?

"And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually.
And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually." Exodus 28:29-30

"And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation." Num 27:21

Have we ever asked a question, which we should not have asked? God have mercy!

"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness" Lev 16:8-10

"Therefore Saul said unto the LORD God of Israel, Give a perfect lot. And Saul and Jonathan were taken: but the people escaped.
And Saul said, Cast lots between me and Jonathan my son. And Jonathan was taken." I Sam 14:41-42

"And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah." Jonah 1:7

Remember when King Saul was getting no answers?

"And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." I Sam 28:6

Then remember what Jesus said here:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:19-20

And then what James wrote here:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:1-3

Jesus always had the answer, God's answer... Why? Could it be because he always sought to be and therefore was in his Father's will?

What can we do? How can we know we are in His will or not? Do we live for God by faith or by knowledge?

So then see what Paul wrote here:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Rom 8:5-9

The simple answer really is, I believe,...

... if we are always in the Spirit and led by the Spirit, we will always know God's answer to any questions to which we need [not want] the answers.

 

[Lambano]

But when one is not quite sure if something is or is not His will?

Ive prayed quite often when I had to make some decision as to which one was His will. He never answered me. So then I began saying, okay, I’ll wait a week and then if you don’t answer I’ll do my best and just know and trust that you’re guiding my steps since you said it and I believe it. He has never once answered me, although when I was very new to Him I convinced myself all kinds of silly things were Him giving direction.
It never occurred to me to draw straws though…

Look up "Umin and Thummim" in your Bible concordance. God's holy dice.
[Dang, Amadeus beat me to it!]

"I'll do my best and trust you're guiding my steps" is about all we can do sometimes.