Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

Only part of you died.

I sure do hope you’re wrong on that.

 

[Brakelite]

Hmm…lol, still not understanding.
So you weren’t hurting for money, materially good, an abundance. That’s not what I took the saint to be talking about in that quote.
I related it more to…ah, probably not important.

Yep, I think I may be looking at his philosophical anecdote a little too subjectively. Forget I said anything. Write it off to the rambling of an old man in his dotage.

 

[Lambano]

I think you missed my entire days long point. But you didn’t ACTUALLY miss it.
My point was that your righteousness DOES have to exceed, but that the only way TO that is to continue in trust and grow in trust, because we can’t do it, but God can.

"Has to exceed?" Or what? Remember, I deal with people who fear God has already consigned them to the flames (or the outer darkness, if darkness is what you fear) because their righteousness isn't close to that of the Pharisees. Or they fear falling. These are my people, and I relate to them. Please forgive me, because it distorted my assessment of what you were trying to say.

Again, not the first time I couldn't relate to what you were saying, because I am no longer worried about my righteousness.

 

[Lambano]

I sure do hope you’re wrong on that.

No, I'm damn sure I'm right about this one. Sheesh, where'd you get this crappy assessment of a woman that Jesus loved and died for? If there's no "Jen" left, who'd He die for? Christ died for nothing!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

"Has to exceed?" Or what? Remember, I deal with people who fear God has already consigned them to the flames (or the outer darkness) because their righteousness isn't close to that of the Pharisees. Or they fear falling. These are my people, and I relate to them. Please forgive me, because it affected my assessment of what was going on.

Again, not the first time I couldn't relate to what you were saying.

I’ve seen people in that fear. It’s the opposite of trust. It usually seems to be, to me, people who were damaged pretty bad in childhood. They fear being rejected again so they can’t trust God. And yet, trusting Him is the only thing that pleases Him. You came out of it. You are the best one to counsel someone like that.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, I'm damn sure I'm right about this one. Sheesh, where'd you get this crappy assessment of a woman that Jesus loved and died for? If there's no "Jen" left, who'd He die for? Christ died for nothing!

Well, you didn’t know her or you would think differently.

 

[Lambano]

I’ve seen people in that fear. It’s the opposite of trust. It usually seems to be, to me, people who were damaged pretty bad in childhood. They fear being rejected again so they can’t trust God. And yet, trusting Him is the only thing that pleases Him. You came out of it. You are the best one to counsel someone like that.

Thank you. I had hoped you had a "Conquer your sin in 21 days" program or something to tap the power you described. But it doesn't work that way, and I do know better.

 

[Lambano]

Well, you didn’t know her or you would think differently.

Not necessarily. But my point is, you are more than just your anger and pride and unforgivingness ... Your sin does NOT define you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thank you. I had hoped you had a "Conquer your sin in 21 days" program or something to tap the power you described. But it doesn't work that way, and I do know better.

Dying is the only way I know to stop sinning. You need Him to get you to wanting to die so you can be filled with new life, HIS life. (I guess…that’s what I’m waiting for…) I don’t know how that could be conveyed to those you have a heart for. I only know that I think hating your life is not as bad a place to be as they think. But they seem to already be there where it took me a long time to get, but without the necessary trust that will bring them to what they want.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not necessarily. But my point is, you are more than just your anger and pride and unforgivingness ... Your sin does NOT define you.

I can’t relate at all to what you’re saying here. I’ve become you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Has to exceed?" Or what?

Look it up. Your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees or you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Then He goes into what that exceeding is.

 

[BarneyFife]

Man, you can try all you want. In fact, try you must and will. You will try (maybe for decades) until you realize you can’t do it. You would be the first person on earth to ever change his inside through his own power and resisting. The best you can do is try to keep your murder hidden inside so men don’t see it. You will just go through a continual up and down cycle of depression every time you fail and wonder why God doesn’t help you not to fail. He WILL NOT EVER take you one step further until you stop thinking you must and can keep the law. You MUST keep it, but you CANT keep it.
Do you know what the purpose of the law is? Please listen - the purpose of the law is to show you how bad you are. You are insisting, no, I’m not really that bad, I can fix this. I CAN stop murdering in my heart, I CAN love God with all my heart, my righteousness CAN exceed the righteousness of keeping the law on the outside, I’m sure of it. If I just keep trying. I HAVE to keep trying because my Lord said my righteousness MUST EXCEED. Some men do this because they think it’s what God wants, commands and expects of them. Some men do it because they think they are capable of it. Some do it because they refuse to believe a building must be condemned and torn down until they become convinced it’s the only option. But relying on your own strength is NOT what the laws purpose is.

Yes, trusting Him for what you cannot do or be is still the answer. This is the righteousness that comes by trust.

@Lambano
She is right on the money and, best I can tell, what she's talking about is taught thoroughly in this book:
(If you care to peek at it)
Lesson 02 – Lessons on Faith
(Lesson 1 has no instruction)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is why I use the word trust instead of faith! I see that men don’t understand that it simply means trust in Him. Continued trust, growing trust, the obedience of trust. They begin to go to and fro in all different directions other than trust and never get to practicing real trust.

 

[Lambano]

I can’t relate at all to what you’re saying here. I’ve become you.

Sigh.

At least we're learning where each other's disconnects are.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sigh.

How dare you sigh at me in that tone of voice!

 

[Lambano]

Look it up. Your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees or you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Then He goes into what that exceeding is.

Look it up: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees! For you shut up the kingdom of God in men's faces. You lay heavy burdens on the backs of men and you yourselves don't lift a finger to help them!"

(No, I'm not accusing you of doing this.)

(Or maybe I am. You who would encourage me to trust in Christ tried to lay the burden of controlling your murderous temper on your own back? I'm not taking that burden myself, nor would I lay it on those who come to me for help.

 

[Lambano]

I can’t relate at all to what you’re saying here. I’ve become you.

Maybe I see something in you that you can't see.

I may not have the really cool spiritual gifts, and my Discernment doesn't have the best track record, nor have I been given the unique and special gift God gave you, but ... God did not leave me blind.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sigh. 1. This is no longer an issue for me. 2. Luther and Calvin operated under an incorrect understanding of Paul's use of the term "Works of the Law (Torah)". The work of Sanders, Dunn, Hays, Stendahl, Wright, et. al. has shown that Torah is understood by the Jewish people to be the obligations of God's people and what Paul was arguing against was whether the boundary markers which previously defined God's people were applicable to the redefined family which includes both Gentile and Jewish Christians. 3. The issue was how to help brothers and sisters who are struggling because setting up the righteousness of the Pharisees as normative even for those who HAVE faith is laying a burden on the backs of men that is too grievous to bear, and we don't lift a finger to help them.

lol, what is all the drama over the man posting something that defines faith as trust…?​

 

[Lambano]

lol, what is all the drama over the man posting something that defines faith as trust…?​

That'll teach him to tag me!

You can tell I didn't read the link. All right, I'll kill the post. BLAM! .44 Magnum shot to the head.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Look it up: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees! For you shut up the kingdom of God in men's faces. You lay heavy burdens on the backs of men and you yourselves don't lift a finger to help them!"

Yes, by telling them all the things they have to do rather than trusting and believing God. But this does not negate the fact that my righteousness must actually exceed theirs.