Church Bashing

[BarneyFife]

I don’t think you can tell until He calms your passions. When you see yourself being mistreated or having bad motives attributed to you and there isn’t even the slightest normal flare of anger or defense for even a second, and you feel love and pity, and you think about it later, it strikes you as odd. When it continues, since you know yourself pretty well, you say, what’s going on…? They were extremely bad to me and I know they were, but even sitting here later thinking about it, I love and pity them and there’s no anger or resentment. Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

Oh, yeah! Great stuff!

 

[Lambano]

Oh you don’t have to watch for it. You’ll absolutely know the oddest thing you’ve ever experienced has happened.

Until that happens, am I stuck with trying to be good and loving on my own power?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Until that happens, am I stuck with trying to be good and loving on my own power?

Well…yes. While we are learning the obedience of trust, we can quite obviously see that we aren’t the way some verses say. We know when we are stewing inside and angry and resenting, which Jesus says is murder. We see we can be selfish. We see that sometimes we can do the right thing and sometimes we do the wrong thing. And we start to see the futility of not really being able to help anyone because we are all only capable of loving as the world loves. And sometimes, we even see an unbeliever who is just naturally nicer and kinder than US.
But learning the obedience of trust is the way. Even when we are learning, we are learning about the righteousness that will come to us by trust. The righteousness that is by faith. He’s changing our minds to agree with Him and getting us to be willing to die, to give up our own will. When it all comes together, it happens in an instant. So just start cooperating when He shows you something you aren’t really trusting Him about or for. Practice trust. It’s the way to what you want.

 

[Nancy]

@stunnedbygrace said:

"although when I was very new to Him I convinced myself all kinds of silly things were Him giving direction."

Lol! I know, right? We were like excited children. Should still be that way...

 

[Brakelite]

On the contrary... only a hard luck story which I now forget as to what happened to their money.

The guy went around from church to church asking for work to earn for traveling money to get them home from Oklahoma some place in Arkansas. We had a couple projects going on the grounds of the church, so our pastor let him work with me for a couple of hours. The man worked hard and did a good job, because being the only church person working at the moment I was working with him showing him what to do.

The couple said they had no vehicle, and that they said they were dependent on public transportation or hitchhiking. I saw the girl early on, but she disappeared when we were working.

When my wife showed up and heard about their supposed plight of needing to get home but having no money at all, she came up with the idea of letting them sleep on our roll out bed in the living room. We fed them a nice dinner, which my wife prepared and fixed their bed. In the morning, I purchased bus tickets to somewhere a few hundred miles away. Greyhound still had a few running in those days, but they had to get to Tulsa to catch the bus. So, I volunteered to drive them the 90 some miles to Tulsa and the bus station.

I handed them the ticket which had cost us close to $100.00 and dropped them off at the station and headed back home. They were supposed to meet the girl's older sister, get the bus ticket money for us and send it to us ASAP. For some reason the sister's name was genuine and the city was correct. However, the street address was phony as was the phone number the couple had given for the sister.

I forget all of the details, but sometime later we managed to get hold of the sister on the telephone. She provided the details which we then believed to be the truth. We were far from the first people, [always church people], to be bilked by the couple. She had not seen her sister in several months and did not expect to as they already gotten money from her... She could not afford to reimburse us and apologized on behalf of her sister.

The bus company confirmed that the couple had cashed in the ticket at the Tulsa station. Where they went from there is anybody's guess. Off to find another town with gullible church members, I suppose.

The single fact that had reassured me when I agreed with my wife's suggestion to give them a place to sleep was that the young man had really been a good worker. It was hard work drilling holes in concrete to insert rebar to connect the older sidewalk to new one to be poured alongside. He worked hard and well for a couple of hours in the hot sun. Of course, our pastor paid him for that. That's about all I remember now.

No hints that would have led me to suspect them before we were committed and set me to worrying.

Yet I would hazard to say that you did the right thing. Your conscience is clear. Imagine how your memory would be of that day had you denied them a meal and a sleep on your bed?

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, for those who love God, or are learning to love God, there is a process going on... and stumbling along the way is not such an unusual thing. If we do not quit on God, I believe the Way to the end of our course with Him remains open to us. We cannot save anyone and we cannot even help everyone. We do what we can when we can as God directs us. In any case we do have the poor always with us, right?

When Jesus said, "If you fed them, you fed Me", He didn't say we ought to ensure that we identify their motives beforehand. We do what we conscientiously believe what is right, and leave the rest with God. Love...thinketh no evil...Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

 

[Brakelite]

I don’t think you can tell until He calms your passions. When you see yourself being mistreated or having bad motives attributed to you and there isn’t even the slightest normal flare of anger or defense for even a second, and you feel love and pity, and you think about it later, it strikes you as odd. When it continues, since you know yourself pretty well, you say, what’s going on…? They were extremely bad to me and I know they were, but even sitting here later thinking about it, I love and pity them and there’s no anger or resentment. Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

What a wonderful world if we could all be as the above.

 

[Lambano]

Well…yes. While we are learning the obedience of trust, we can quite obviously see that we aren’t the way some verses say. We know when we are stewing inside and angry and resenting, which Jesus says is murder. We see we can be selfish. We see that sometimes we can do the right thing and sometimes we do the wrong thing. And we start to see the futility of not really being able to help anyone because we are all only capable of loving as the world loves. And sometimes, we even see an unbeliever who is just naturally nicer and kinder than US.
But learning the obedience of trust is the way. Even when we are learning, we are learning about the righteousness that will come to us by trust. The righteousness that is by faith. He’s changing our minds to agree with Him and getting us to be willing to die, to give up our own will. When it all comes together, it happens in an instant. So just start cooperating when He shows you something you aren’t really trusting Him about or for. Practice trust. It’s the way to what you want.

And until this happens, I (and my friend) also need to resist our lust and anger and pride and such with our own power? Is learning to trust still the answer when faced with a messy inside of the cup that we can't clean on our own? What's the point in telling someone to clean up the inside of their cup first when there's nothing they can do to clean it? The trust part - that's something we can do (I think; I could be wrong.)

[Epilogue: I see earlier in this conversation how you and Nancy hate yourselves for the weaknesses you must conceal, your own anger, your own sins. Perhaps I am more like my friend than I want to admit in not hating my own sin enough. In the time of my confession...]

 

[Lambano]

But learning the obedience of trust is the way. Even when we are learning, we are learning about the righteousness that will come to us by trust. The righteousness that is by faith. He’s changing our minds to agree with Him and getting us to be willing to die, to give up our own will. When it all comes together, it happens in an instant. So just start cooperating when He shows you something you aren’t really trusting Him about or for. Practice trust. It’s the way to what you want.

All right; this'll be my takeaway from this conversation.

 

[Lambano]

Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Galatians 2:20)

If Christ lives in you, then part of you is walking in holiness. Though you might deny it, I think you'll grow to like it. But like I said, I still see something uniquely "Jen" there. She isn't dead; she's different; she's a New Creation. (2 Corinthians 5:17) And this says the Son of God loves her.

 

[Brakelite]

not grasping what you’re saying here.

LOL, after reading it again, I'm not surprised. Allow me to start again.

Quote: It’s like the old saint who said, to know what Gods will is, it’s only necessary to look at your circumstances.

I remember when I was first saved/converted, it was at a time when I thought all my circumstances were fine. And anyone else who knew me would have thought the same. Just saying that sometimes our circumstances can be deceiving as to what is really going on. Inside, I wasn't that comfortable. And I didn't know why. I had several good friends which was cool seeing I hadn't been living at that place more than a year, yet I was lonely. Jesus knew what was really going on despite the appearance of everything being hunky dory. So just sayin that if all I focused on was my circumstances, things materially exceptionally good, no-one, including myself, would suggest they knew what God's will was for myself. Except for one person. She asked, "Do you think God would approve of your current lifestyle"? I think our mindsets betray us, not so much our circumstances.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What a wonderful world if we could all be as the above.

We can. If we trust.

 

[Brakelite]

We can. If we trust.

Yes. And there's enormous healing power in that for those around us. Loving others unconditionally may cost us a great deal here in this life, but we win everything in the next. Including maybe many of those we loved.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And until this happens, I (and my friend) also need to resist our lust and anger and pride and such with our own power? Is learning to trust still the answer when faced with a messy inside of the cup that we can't clean on our own?

[Epilogue: I see earlier in this conversation how you and Nancy despise your own weaknesses; your penchant for sin. Perhaps I am more like my friend than I want to admit in not hating my own sin enough. In the time of my confession...]

Man, you can try all you want. In fact, try you must and will. You will try (maybe for decades) until you realize you can’t do it. You would be the first person on earth to ever change his inside through his own power and resisting. The best you can do is try to keep your murder hidden inside so men don’t see it. You will just go through a continual up and down cycle of depression every time you fail and wonder why God doesn’t help you not to fail. He WILL NOT EVER take you one step further until you stop thinking you must and can keep the law. You MUST keep it, but you CANT keep it.
Do you know what the purpose of the law is? Please listen - the purpose of the law is to show you how bad you are. You are insisting, no, I’m not really that bad, I can fix this. I CAN stop murdering in my heart, I CAN love God with all my heart, my righteousness CAN exceed the righteousness of keeping the law on the outside, I’m sure of it. If I just keep trying. I HAVE to keep trying because my Lord said my righteousness MUST EXCEED. Some men do this because they think it’s what God wants, commands and expects of them. Some men do it because they think they are capable of it. Some do it because they refuse to believe a building must be condemned and torn down until they become convinced it’s the only option. But relying on your own strength is NOT what the laws purpose is.

Yes, trusting Him for what you cannot do or be is still the answer. This is the righteousness that comes by trust.

 

[Lambano]

I don’t think you can tell until He calms your passions. When you see yourself being mistreated or having bad motives attributed to you and there isn’t even the slightest normal flare of anger or defense for even a second, and you feel love and pity, and you think about it later, it strikes you as odd. When it continues, since you know yourself pretty well, you say, what’s going on…? They were extremely bad to me and I know they were, but even sitting here later thinking about it, I love and pity them and there’s no anger or resentment. Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

Was the change sudden for you, or more gradual?

I can tell that I'm better than I was, but for me, the healing changes have been subtle and spread out over 18 years.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Was the change sudden for you, or more gradual?

I can tell that I'm better than I was, but for me, the healing changes have been subtle and spread out over 18 years.

You mean did I slowly stop being so angry and resentful at the way others treated me? So your question is, did I slowly stop murdering as much? Like…oh hey, I used to murder my mother in my heart seven times a day because of how she acts and treats me but I’m better now because I only murdered her once yesterday! And the lady who honked at me because SHE ran a red light, I did murder her too yesterday but I stopped doing it 15 minutes later, after I calmed down, so…I think I’m a little better than I was?

 

[Lambano]

The best you can do is try to keep your murder hidden inside so men don’t see it.

As an engineer, we always push to fix the root cause of a problem, not just patch the outward failure symptoms. But my point was there actually is a value-add in keeping the murder contained in your heart until God gets around to cleaning it up so it doesn't become actual homicide. Or (remembering our prayer requester), preventing our lust from becoming actual adultery. Or preventing the feeling of hopelessness from becoming actual substance abuse. Part of me doesn't want to see people get hurt, especially not innocent people. It was mentioned that the institutional church has programs for these sorts of things, as does the secular world. But I was hoping for real spiritual power. I guess it can't be tapped on demand.

 

[Lambano]

You mean did I slowly stop being so angry and resentful at the way others treated me? So your question is, did I slowly stop murdering as much? Like…oh hey, I used to murder my mother in my heart seven times a day because of how she acts and treats me but I’m better now because I only murdered her once yesterday! And the lady who honked at me because SHE ran a red light, I did murder her too yesterday but I stopped doing it 15 minutes later, after I calmed down, so…I think I’m a little better than I was?

More like, "Y'know, 5 years ago, I might've murdered my mother for that. But I didn't. What changed? When did it change?"

Versus, "Today, I feel my passions, my anger, my selfishness, my pride is completely gone. I can empathize with the lady with the horn yesterday because she is trapped, just like I was. The "me" that I am today is not the "me" that I was yesterday. What happened?"

BTW it's in my personnel jacket back at my previous company that I'm a smart-ass - but I'm not being one now. This was a serious question.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

LOL, after reading it again, I'm not surprised. Allow me to start again.

Quote: It’s like the old saint who said, to know what Gods will is, it’s only necessary to look at your circumstances.

I remember when I was first saved/converted, it was at a time when I thought all my circumstances were fine. And anyone else who knew me would have thought the same. Just saying that sometimes our circumstances can be deceiving as to what is really going on. Inside, I wasn't that comfortable. And I didn't know why. I had several good friends which was cool seeing I hadn't been living at that place more than a year, yet I was lonely. Jesus knew what was really going on despite the appearance of everything being hunky dory. So just sayin that if all I focused on was my circumstances, things materially exceptionally good, no-one, including myself, would suggest they knew what God's will was for myself. Except for one person. She asked, "Do you think God would approve of your current lifestyle"? I think our mindsets betray us, not so much our circumstances.

Hmm…lol, still not understanding.
So you weren’t hurting for money, materially good, an abundance. That’s not what I took the saint to be talking about in that quote.
I related it more to…ah, probably not important.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As an engineer, we always push to fix the root cause of a problem, not just patch the outward failure symptoms. But my point was there actually is a value-add in keeping the murder contained in your heart until God gets around to cleaning it up said so it doesn't become actual homicide. Or (remembering our prayer requester), preventing our lust from becoming actual adultery. Or preventing the feeling of hopelessness from becoming actual substance abuse. Part of me doesn't want to see people get hurt, especially not innocent people. It was mentioned that the institutional church has programs for these sorts of things. But I was hoping for real spiritual power. I guess it can't be tapped on demand.

Well…yes, it’s good that your murder not proceed to the outside. It’s for the social good so we are socialized to not do it and to “get them” in sneakier, more socially acceptable ways, and it’s also for my own good too if I don’t want to be locked in prison. But I was most likely never going to strangle, bludgeon or shoot my mother even BEFORE I met God. The majority of the population goes through life never physically murdering anyone. But my righteousness must exceed that righteousness. The problem is on the inside of the cup. Yes, there is a value-add to society that I don’t homicide someone or sleep with their spouse but I shouldn’t think that means I’ve kept those laws just because no man saw me do it in my mind and heart.