Scripture IS ALL TRUTH.
But ALL SCRIPTURE DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL PEOPLE.
A man born again, IS BORN OF GOD!
He does not sin.
He can not sin.
How does ^ THAT apply to a person, BORN OF GOD?
It doesn’t.
OSAS But Be Ready Or Else
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Scripture IS ALL TRUTH.
But ALL SCRIPTURE DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL PEOPLE.
A man born again, IS BORN OF GOD!
He does not sin.
He can not sin.
How does ^ THAT apply to a person, BORN OF GOD?
It doesn’t.
WHO exactly is a saint that is “left” behind?
WHAT exactly do you mean “left” behind?
WHY exactly is a saint “left” behind?
Davy
Well-Known Member
Revealing the error of those who follow a false doctrine from men instead of heeding God's Word as written, is NOT sarcasm.
I can... explain that, but can you explain the Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture where Jesus showed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation?
Actually like it or not, a Pre-tribulational Rapture is NOT... going to happen. It is nowhere written of in God's Word. When you people quote Scripture to 'try' and prove it, you are only putting up canon fodder for the gullible who won't read their Bible.
1 Peter 4 is about God's judgment at Christ's return beginning with judgment of His Church. For His 'faithful' Church, that is going to be rewards! For those who refused to heed His Word, it will be shame.
The Luke 12:40-49 Scripture subject actually begins at verse 36 about Christ's future coming, and His command for His servants to be 'watching' like the goodman of the house who did not suffer the 'thief' to break in. Blessed are those whom Christ's finds when He comes still 'watching' and giving His servants meat in due season. The Pre-tribbers are not 'watching', but just say, "be ready", and they do not know what to be watching for, because they are falsely lied to and told they will be raptured prior to the tribulation. Christ's command for us to 'watch' is about watching the main Signs He gave leading up to His return, what Apostle Paul called "the times and the seasons" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3. This is what Christ's Olivet discourse is about, which the Pre-tribbers are told that Scripture is not meant for Christ's Church, their again being lied to by their Pre-trib doctors.
John 15:1-8 is about Jesus revealing that He abides with those who abide in Him AND IN HIS WORD. The Pre-trib Rapture theory does not do that, but abides in their OWN word, for they reject easy Scripture like Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus showed His coming to gather the saints is AFTER... the tribulation. Pre-trib falsely teaches that Jesus raptures the Church PRIOR to the tribulation, just the opposite of what Jesus said in HIS WORD. Thus the matter is simple, Pre-trib is NOT abiding in Jesus Christ.
Since a Pre-tribber cannot even properly address simple Bible Scripture, attempts at correcting them is pretty much useless by us; only God can turn them according to His Will. All we can do is warn them, and show them His Word in hopes they will 'read' it, instead of listening to the demons who push lies upon them.
What translation is that? It's changing the meaning. "Refuses", there isn't such an intentional word in the text. Just, the one born from God does not practice sin. Where are they getting "refuses"?
Much love!
@Christ4Me It's all of Him; all of grace, indeed:
"All of grace, yes, grace surpassing,
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.
Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the Tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me."
Then why did the apostle John had written this below?
1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Why did John written this for believers to do also?
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
You cannot say it was not addressed to believers when John included himself in that "we".
Discernment & wisdom is needed from the Lord in understanding the book of 1 John, because I believe John was exposing those believers that believed sin was no longer sin to themselves by how they were not walking as Jesus did in the light. John expounded on this by edifying believers to know the difference between those professing believers who are not abiding in Him from those that are,1 John 1:3-10 & 1 John 3:22-24
John did not want believers to follow after those living in error or sin, for why he had stressed this on the believers 1 John 3:9-10 & 1 John 5:18 This was not a judgment on the believers but an exhortation on believers not to follow after them by living in error or in sin.
Davy
Well-Known Member
@Ferris Bueller @Davy @Cassandra
I agree with @stunnedbygrace because of this scripture below for why running that race is a daily event of looking to Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin to be walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son. Hebrews 12:1-2 & 1 John 1:3-9
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Not to mention about how we are to respond with His help in posting in Christian forums.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
It is good to see how you guys are all cordial with one another in Christ's love.
Sorry, but you evidently fail to see how trying to correct a fellow-believer on Christ Jesus from a dangerous false doctrine to one's soul isn't a show of love.
If you truly love our Lord Jesus Christ, then you will not only have a 'want' to keep His Words, but you will strive... to keep them.
And the idea of being spiritually drunken is NOT my idea; it is an idea from Apostle Paul's warnings in 1 Thessalonians 5 about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety" when the "sudden destruction" comes upon them on the day of Christ's future return (on the "day of the Lord"). Those in Christ instead are to be spiritually sober, watching the "times and the seasons" Paul also mentioned there.
Those saved believers that stopped abiding in Him & His words as His disciples. John 15:1-8 Note verse 6.
Cut off from being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection at the rapture event when the Bridegroom comes. Luke 12:40-49 Luke 13:24-30
A saint is "left" behind as "a disqualified & a reprobate" for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come. They are the workers of iniquity. Titus 1:16 2 That is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House for not departing form iniquity.2 Timothy 4:18-21
Davy
Well-Known Member
That is not what Lord Jesus taught about those left behind. At the end of Luke 17 is where Lord Jesus revealed the bad position is actually for the 1st one taken...
Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
The meaning of that is about those who seek to fly away to save their soul will lose it, while those who remain and are persecuted will have preserved their soul in Christ Jesus. It's Christ's Message to for His servants to NOT fear the coming "great tribulation" event.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Right there above is where the Pre-tribulational Rapture preachers stop. They do not reveal Jesus' answer below when His disciples asked Him to 'where' those 1st ones would be taken to.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
Another version of Christ's answer exists in Matthew 24:28 which is more clear...
Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV
Literally, wherever the dead carcase is, that's where the fowls will be gathered together, doing what? Feasting on the dead, symbolically. And that is about the FIRST ONE TAKEN.
This means the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors lie against what Lord Jesus Christ showed there with that expression about those 'taken' being like a dead carcase. This means those who remain in Christ WANT to be left behind! And that is Christ's idea in Luke 17, keep grinding at the mill waiting for Christ's coming. Watch for thief that tries to break in, which means watching the Signs of the end Jesus gave us leading up to His return. This is what He also meant about giving meat in due season. It means to be teaching His servants about those Signs to be watching, for that is 'strong meat' in His Word. It's one of the reasons He gave us His Book of Revelation about the end.
But you have not shared anything in this thread yet to prove it is a false doctrine. Just saying it is a false doctrine without reproof by scripture is hardly going to progress anywhere in this discussion.
First off, is noticing His disciples were asking Jesus 3 questions.
Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (#1) when shall these things be? and (#2 ) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and ( #3 ) of the end of the world?
As you read down that chapter, do note Jesus is not answering those questions in chronological order since He is not talking about when that Temple they are seeing will get thrown down right away which was the first question they had asked Him.
There is tribulation and then there is great tribulation. Jesus is describing the latter days as tribulation in Matthew 24:4-13 before the great tribulation comes which is after the gospel is preached everywhere for when the end shall come in Matthew 24:14-22. Jesus goes back and forth on this for why discernment and wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words.
** Side note Actually, Matthew 24:14 is about when the end comes ( the disciples 3rd & last question ) as that first angel will do that as being of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth in Revelation 14:6-11 which Revelation 14:1-5 testifies of, out of those raptured, 14,000 virgin men makes His personal choir that follows Him around wherever He goes in Heaven.
Anyway...read about how Jesus went back to before the great tribulation again and was describing the "tribulation" of those days before His appearing in Matthew 24:23-27 below as He did started out that way in Matthew 24:4-5 about deceivers.
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Then apply your reference below as confirming that is when He shall appear after the tribulation of those days when believers are going astray.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
One could say at or after the rapture event, the first angel preaching the gospel everywhere signifies how the end will come as Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 for answering that 3rd question "of the end of the world"
@Christ4Me Being ready and secure is about relying completely on the finish work of Christ by faith, thus being kept by Him for time and eternity.
And I apply that in the KJV as meaning those ashamed shall be left behind to suffer that fire coming on that third of the earth after the gospel has been preached everywhere by that first angel as Jesus is faithful in the keeping of their souls while they suffer being left behind.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. KJV
No, it is not about watching for signs in Luke 12:40-49 but being ready as found abiding in Him. Look at how those ready are judged for the knowledge they had for not being ready by stripes and lesser stripes for the knowledge that they did not have for not being ready.
And do note how the scripture still addresses them as His "servants" for how they were cut off to be with the unbelievers remaining on the earth.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.....49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Even if you disagree with my application, surely you can see & understand where I am coming from with the Lord's help. Luke 12:40-49 is what happens when the Lord cuts off saved believers not abiding in Him as His disciples in John 15:6
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
IMO, the pivot point is habitual. Yes, I know I still sin but also know it is diminishing as my walk with Christ goes on.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I cannot believe you said the above, after all the Scripture evidence I have pointed you to. That pretty much reveals to me that you don't care about those Scriptures I showed, that you may have disdain for them. Can't you see I'm trying to help you? and get you to actually 'see' those Scripture proofs?
Their point though is that they 'understood' Jesus talking about the destruction to come upon that Temple Mount was really pointing to the events of the end leading up to His future return. They wanted to know more.
His disciples most likely were aware of Zechariah 14 which shows a destruction to occur upon the Mount of Olives at Christ's future return. That also pointing to destruction upon the temple mount with the great earthquake and valley to be formed there. Their question in Matthew 24:3 shows they were not interpreting the destruction being about the 70 A.D. destruction by the Romans, but about the day of Christ's future coming.
Well, He actually called the events just prior to the "great tribulation" a time of the "beginning of sorrows" (Matthew 24:8). And I don't see any such "back and forth" you're talking about. Jesus is giving 7 main Signs of the end which parallel the Seals of Revelation 6 about the end leading up to His future return.
I disagree. Matthew 24:14 is simply about The Gospel being heralded into all the world before... the end will come. It is setting a condition. As for your Revelation references, you are mixing them up timeline-wise. When the 144,000 are seen with Jesus upon "mount Sion" per Revelation 14, that "Sion" is not up in the clouds, it is upon the earth in the holy land, and is after His future return to this earth. At Jesus' coming, His destination is upon the earth, His feet touching on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and He brings all His faithful saints with Him, as written there. Thus your side note does not actually fit what Scripture reveals.
The Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture is about Lord Jesus' WARNING against believing on the coming false-Christ in His place. That is WITHIN the "great tribulation" time, because it began with the placing of that "abomination of desolation" idol in verse 15. He quoted from the Book of Daniel about that, and that means including the prophecies in Daniel involving the "vile person" of Daniel 11 and the AOD he is to place in a final temple there in Jerusalem. Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. serves as a blueprint for that future event by the Antichrist at the end just prior to Christ's future return.
Sorry, but you cannot insert a rapture any time prior to those Matthew 24:29-31 verses.
There is no such idea written there like that.
The Matthew 24 Scripture is very clear, and is in ORDER of the Signs of the end Jesus gave. Just because you 'want'... to believe there will be a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation" He warned His saints about there, that does not mean you can try and INSERT one like you tried to do.
BECAUSE he was “speaking to”......LITTLE CHILDREN”...so “LITTLE CHILDREN” would Learn “HOW TO” become BORN AGAIN!
Get real.. Teachers, teaching little children routinely TEACH including themselves.
Did you NEVER teach a child, to pick up his toys, make his bed, tie his shoes...?
this is the way WE pickup our toys....this is the way WE make our bed....this is the way we tie our shoes....
Ya think it is the parents toys, bed, shoes ?
You can not delineate to know the difference between the teacher and student....The parent and the child...the Apostle and little children ?
Little children are STUDENTS of everything they are being TAUGHT.
A little child believing. A adult with the beginning learning of Christ Jesus...
ARE NOT they who ARE BORN AGAIN....
So, IF you ARE like a little child, or an adult beginning to learn about Christ Jesus.....then those Scriptures WOULD APPLY TO YOU....and Scripture about those ALREADY BORN AGAIN......WOULD NOT APPLY TO YOU.
You STILL STAND AGAINST God, while you walk with CHIRST ?
Not possible...
Matt 12
[30] He that is not with me IS against me;
Not looking up references...
QUOTE the Scripture..that means...;
“SAVED” BELIEVERS STOPPED ABIDING IN HIM.
You have yet to prove why warning believers to be always ready by looking to Him for help to be abiding in Him and His words is dangerous.
Since we prophesy in part & know in part, correcting one another in Christ's love hoping in Him to recover any from the snare of the devil on both sides of the discussion is key. We cannot grow or be pruned by Him to bear more fruits if we are not open to correction by the scripture.
I see spiritually drunken as coming this in the O.T.
Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
That is seen in these latter days by this apostate calling of seeking another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement Toronto's Blessings, Pensacola Outpouring, and even Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the "Holy Spirit" falling on already saved believers to bring about miracles where they lose self control and fall backwards. 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4
Paul prophesied that this will happen in droves in these latter days in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 before we are gathered unto Him; hence those false prophets that deceive in Matthew 24:23-28 before He comes as the Bridegroom in collecting the saints
Paul stated that this iniquity for causing the falling away from the faith in the latter days in droves, was happening even in his day 2 Thessalonians 2:7 And he cites them that have fallen away as "damned" meaning at risk of being left being in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:15-26 ) for believing the lie that they can receive the "Holy Spirit" again apart from salvation.
Believing one can receive the holy Spirit again apart from salvation is the lie spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 because of the reproof of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.
Paul goes on to address those that have fallen away from the faith as unreasonable wicked men that have not faith, that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us, and are disorderly as al those previous mentioned of the movements of the "spirit" are, but even though Paul gave the commandment from the Lord in helping us to do this, to withdraw from them ( 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 ), but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still ( 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 ), because they are still saved for He is faithful for He still abides, even in former believers, though they have gone astray & would deny Him verbally 2 Timothy 2:11-13 One does not need to verbally deny Him but can deny Him by their works ( Titus 1:16 ); both religious wise or supernatural wise, but losing self control & causing confusion in church is not of Him at all.
Matthew 7:21-27 So in spite of the miracles happening, they ae falling down for not heeding His words that there is no more receiving Him again after salvation for why they hunger and thirst for more of that phenomenon, but denying His promise for after coming to & believing in Jesus Christ, we would never hunger nor thirst again to be filled ( John 6:35 ) for we have been aways Spirit-filled since salvation as a testimony from Gid that we are His and thus saved; Matthew 9:17. After having received Him at our salvation, we are complete in Christ; Colossians 2:5-10
Anyway, that is where I get spiritually drunken from as seen in scripture when believers lose self control as if they are drunk when seeking a continual filling of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.
You are right in that we are to be sober all the time, but some believers do not apply that to those supernatural phenomenon in getting "drunk".
Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Not really. When Jesus referred to Lot's wife, she loved this life more that she did not want to leave it for why she was looking back.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The English word "gathered" in verse 37 is from the Greek word "sunago" which means to received to entertain with hospitality & to resort in.
The English word "eagle" is from the Greek word "aetos" which is winglike flight or eagle for how the saints that are ready are taken.
There are scripture to confirm this as rightly dividing the word of truth.
Luke 14:15-24 has those invited, thus saved, refusing to come to the King's supper for the everyday cares of life.
Luke 14:25-35 is not about how we are to live as His disciples down here for then no one is doing that, but it is about Him warning how the cares of this life can be a snare that we would not want to leave our loved ones behind, thus loving them more than Him when He comes as the Bridegroom. That is the cost of discipleship when they fail to recognize what it means when the Bridegroom comes.
Luke 21:33-36 has Jesus warning believers that the cares of life can be a snare for why they should pray for His help to escape that fire coming on the earth.
Those not abiding in Him and His words are still kept by Him even though left behind.
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