will faith still be here?

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Truth7t7

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Boy are you hard-headed! I've said that the dissolution of the elements is precisely what all fires do! Saying the elements are dissolved is nothing more than saying there will be fires all across the earth. The "earth" doesn't have to refer to the entire planet itself--it can also refer to the entire sphere of the earth, such as all the people or all the plants on it.

In this case, I view this as a generalization, that things across the earth are going to be burned--not that every plant and every person and the dirt itself is going to be dissolved into nothingness. As I keep saying, there are Scriptures indicating the present earth is "eternal." You just ignore that. Is that what you do with other Scriptures you don't like?

I don't really want you to get upset with me--I'm just giving you my opinions. You don't have to agree with it. But neither is it valuable to keep on asserting the same arguments without addressing the responses.

The Scriptures speak of the futility of storing up wealth on earth in view of the fact it is dissolved over time. Physical things break down, such as plants. And people themselves break down and die. It is futile to try to preserve our lives indefinitely.

But the " fire" that is coming to further dissolve things speaks of the judgment of God's wrath, which accompanies the Return of Christ. It amplifies what we already know about physical things, including our possessions. The melting of the very elements suggests not just the breaking down of plants, but more, even things we possess made of metal that we can't save.

So I do believe to say God is creating a "New Earth," when He's already said He created the earth to last forever, indicates poetically that a transition is happening. The old order of things is phasing out, punctuating by the fires of Armageddon, which I think is a world war setting on fire many cities across the earth.

The lesson is: get your things in order. You can't bring anything of this life with you to Heaven. An eternal Kingdom is coming to earth, and the old operating system is soon to be defunct. It has nothing to do with the death of a planet...in my opinion.
You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creation"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
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Keraz

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You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)
Your repeated and bolded assertions are useless; as what they say does not prove your case.
We can all read Revelation 20 to 21. Obviously there will be a thousand years from the Return of Jesus, to the final Judgment and then the New Heavens and earth.
Either acknowledge this Biblical truth, or go and annoy someone else.
 

Keraz

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I understand that you're connecting Isa 66 to Rev 7 and 14! If they are truly connected then I see your point. I'm just not sure they are connected?
Why reply with your opinion?
Why not study Isaiah 66:18b-21 and prove to me where you think it applies.

You show your bias and error, by saying the 144,000 are all Jews. The House of Judah represents only 2/12 of all Israel.
The idea that a few from each tribe has joined already, is right, but they have assimilated and are now are all Jewish.

The ten Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations and will be gathered after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 20:34-38
 

Truth7t7

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Your repeated and bolded assertions are useless; as what they say does not prove your case.
We can all read Revelation 20 to 21. Obviously there will be a thousand years from the Return of Jesus, to the final Judgment and then the New Heavens and earth.
Either acknowledge this Biblical truth, or go and annoy someone else.
As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

Afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim


(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Truth7t7

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Your repeated and bolded assertions are useless; as what they say does not prove your case.
We can all read Revelation 20 to 21. Obviously there will be a thousand years from the Return of Jesus, to the final Judgment and then the New Heavens and earth.
Either acknowledge this Biblical truth, or go and annoy someone else.
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)?

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time?

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Randy Kluth

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Why reply with your opinion?
Why not study Isaiah 66:18b-21 and prove to me where you think it applies.

I don't think it applies. Two different prophecies. I've never had a complete understanding of Isa 66. For our purposes, all the information we need should be in the context of Rev 7 and 14. And world evangelism isn't there, nor does it make sense.

Do you really believe a non-Christian group of smallish size, compared to nations and the world, can suddenly become Christian, instantly and without any time for consideration, from a hard-core anti-Christian religion to the Christian religion, grow up within days, weeks, and months, and suddenly, without any education, maturity, or growth, become world-class evangelists, and win millions from all nations in the space of just a few years when the Church across the world has been struggling to do this for 2000 years? And this in a time when Satan and Antichrist are at its most potent stage in history? I think not!!

Next question?

You show your bias and error, by saying the 144,000 are all Jews. The House of Judah represents only 2/12 of all Israel.
The idea that a few from each tribe has joined already, is right, but they have assimilated and are now are all Jewish.

I'm biased because I think they are all Jews? They are all described as Hebrews, and the Hebrews today are all called Jews, no matter what tribes they originated from. All the tribes are mixed together!

The ten Northern tribes remain scattered among the nations and will be gathered after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East area. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 20:34-38

Where are ten Northern tribes of Israel scattered among the nations? You think small samples of DNA from the 10 tribes are scattered throughout the Europeans, and that makes them descendants of the 10 Northern tribes? I suppose we'll have to leave it there for now? It makes no sense to me.
 

Truth7t7

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I don't think it applies. Two different prophecies. I've never had a complete understanding of Isa 66. For our purposes, all the information we need should be in the context of Rev 7 and 14. And world evangelism isn't there, nor does it make sense.

Do you really believe a non-Christian group of smallish size, compared to nations and the world, can suddenly become Christian, instantly and without any time for consideration, from a hard-core anti-Christian religion to the Christian religion, grow up within days, weeks, and months, and suddenly, without any education, maturity, or growth, become world-class evangelists, and win millions from all nations in the space of just a few years when the Church across the world has been struggling to do this for 2000 years? And this in a time when Satan and Antichrist are at its most potent stage in history? I think not!!

Next question?



I'm biased because I think they are all Jews? They are all described as Hebrews, and the Hebrews today are all called Jews, no matter what tribes they originated from. All the tribes are mixed together!



Where are ten Northern tribes of Israel scattered among the nations? You think small samples of DNA from the 10 tribes are scattered throughout the Europeans, and that makes them descendants of the 10 Northern tribes? I suppose we'll have to leave it there for now? It makes no sense to me.
Isaiah is straight forward as seen below, it's the New Heaven and Earth

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
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Keraz

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I don't think it applies. Two different prophecies. I've never had a complete understanding of Isa 66. For our purposes, all the information we need should be in the context of Rev 7 and 14. And world evangelism isn't there, nor does it make sense.
If you don't understand Isaiah 66, then don't make an opinion about it.
Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Revelation 14:1-7 are parallel prophesies, they correlate quite well and there is nowhere else to place the sending out of missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Just as the 72 did in Luke 10:1-10
72 + 72 X 1000 - 144,000
They do not 'suddenly' become Christians. They are chosen out of the people who have washed their robes and made them shining white, Rev 7:1-14 Those who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day, just happened; of the Sixth Seal event.
Where are ten Northern tribes of Israel scattered among the nations? You think small samples of DNA from the 10 tribes are scattered throughout the Europeans, and that makes them descendants of the 10 Northern tribes? I suppose we'll have to leave it there for now? It makes no sense to me.
Is the statement of Jesus in Matthew 15:24 I have come to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel, just mean those who claim to be Israelis?
If so, then Jesus failed in His Mission.
The House of Israel and the House of Judah have not yet rejoined. Ezekiel 37:15-28 remains unfulfilled, but Ezekiel 37:1-14 has been fulfilled by the Spiritual regeneration of the House of Israel and the many others grafted in.
THEY; we Christians are the Israelites of God, as all the NT teachings confirm.

That God knows who those people are, is shown in Amos 9:9
And how many of them won't make it into the Promised Land, is shown in Ezekiel 20:34-38
 

Randy Kluth

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If you don't understand Isaiah 66, then don't make an opinion about it.

I shouldn't have to make an opinion about anything other than the context we're dealing with, in Rev 7 and 14. You're trying to bring in other resources not called upon by the passages we're addressing. There are 66 books you can draw upon for confirming a truth, but when trying to interpret a particular passage you have to deal with the passage itself, including its context. Bringing in questionable related passages can either help or obscure the interpretation.

I can make an opinion about Isa 66 in the sense that it doesn't directly relate to what is said in Rev 7 and 14, and the fact that Rev 7 and 14 don't quote or refer to Isa 66. Absolutely, I can say that.

Isaiah 66:18b-21 and Revelation 14:1-7 are parallel prophesies, they correlate quite well and there is nowhere else to place the sending out of missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom.

You're just proving my point. There is nowhere to place the sending out of missionaries that you know of. So you take hold of a questionable relationship between Rev 7 and 14 and Isa 66 to prove, dogmatically, that the 144,000 are missionaries? Unbelievable!
If your dogma is based on such sketchy connections I wouldn't trust you with my taxes, for sure! ;)

Just as the 72 did in Luke 10:1-10
72 + 72 X 1000 - 144,000
They do not 'suddenly' become Christians. They are chosen out of the people who have washed their robes and made them shining white, Rev 7:1-14 Those who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day, just happened; of the Sixth Seal event.

But this was the "talking point" of Dispensationalists I was talking about! You don't have to sign onto that--you just chose to defend them! I was reiterating a very common belief among Dispensationalists that the 144,000 are literal Jews who are converted at the secret Coming of Christ, become missionaries, and harvest a multitude from many nations--all within 7 years! ;) If you don't agree with that, why did you sign onto it? I was criticizing that belief without reference to your own beliefs, and yet you chose to defend it!

Is the statement of Jesus in Matthew 15:24 I have come to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel, just mean those who claim to be Israelis?

Yes, he was talking about the Jewish People at that time--not limiting his Salvation only to the nation of Israel.

If so, then Jesus failed in His Mission.

You say he did, but it isn't true if indeed Jesus comes back and restores Israel, converting them into a Christian nation.

The House of Israel and the House of Judah have not yet rejoined.

They joined a long time ago. It happened when Israel returned from the Babylonian Captivity establishing only a single nation. There was no longer any division between Israel and Judah. The northern Kingdom of Israel perished.

The Southern Kingdom, when it was founded apart from the Northern Kingdom, drew people from all of the northern tribes who were interested in retaining their allegiance to Jerusalem, in accordance with the Law. So Judah became a haven for orthodox practitioners of the word of God from all twelve tribes. And eventually, the Southern Kingdom would become the official union of all twelve tribes, following the captivities, because God has chosen to place His Name there, in Jerusalem.

2 Chron 11.16 Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their ancestors.

Ezekiel 37:15-28 remains unfulfilled, but Ezekiel 37:1-14 has been fulfilled by the Spiritual regeneration of the House of Israel and the many others grafted in.

Part of Eze 37 remains unfulfilled and part of it has been fulfilled. The division between the two kingdoms ended with the Assyrian Captivity. But the spiritual restoration of the nation has not yet happened.

THEY; we Christians are the Israelites of God, as all the NT teachings confirm.

The NT does *not* teach that Gentile Christians are "Israel." There are only a couple of verses that can be used to try to prove that. But there are alternative views on them.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Isaiah is straight forward as seen below, it's the New Heaven and Earth

Isaiah 66:22-24KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

You are replying to a different conversation I was having with Keraz. And the part I was referring to is not so "straightforward." It appears the Jewish People are sent to exiled Jews in other countries, proclaiming God's glory in those countries. Some of the Jews will also be appointed as priests. All of this sounds like OT Law. At the very best, it is questionable as applicable to Rev 7 and 14.

As to there coming to be a new universe, we've already said our bit on that. You seem to think "new planet" and I think "made over planet," or "remodeled" planet.

For me, the burning up of our planet means the taking away of possessions from people from all across the globe, including plant products and mineral products. The elements will "dissolve."

For me, that doesn't mean the planet itself dissolves--just the things in it from all parts of the earth. You think the earth itself, as a planet, will be dissolved, and will have to be re-made--not just "made over." We disagree.

But the part of Isa 66 I quote below regards the conversation I was having with Keraz about who "Israel" is. It has nothing to do with the part about the new universe.

Isa 66.19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your people, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.
 

Truth7t7

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You are replying to a different conversation I was having with Keraz. And the part I was referring to is not so "straightforward." It appears the Jewish People are sent to exiled Jews in other countries, proclaiming God's glory in those countries. Some of the Jews will also be appointed as priests. All of this sounds like OT Law. At the very best, it is questionable as applicable to Rev 7 and 14.

As to there coming to be a new universe, we've already said our bit on that. You seem to think "new planet" and I think "made over planet," or "remodeled" planet.

For me, the burning up of our planet means the taking away of possessions from people from all across the globe, including plant products and mineral products. The elements will "dissolve."

For me, that doesn't mean the planet itself dissolves--just the things in it from all parts of the earth. You think the earth itself, as a planet, will be dissolved, and will have to be re-made--not just "made over." We disagree.

But the part of Isa 66 I quote below regards the conversation I was having with Keraz about who "Israel" is. It has nothing to do with the part about the new universe.

Isa 66.19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your people, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.
You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creation"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

Randy Kluth

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You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creation"

You insult me, and think that resolves things? I told you my view--you can take it or leave it. What you can't do is say I "run from it!" I answered every point. You disappoint.
 

Truth7t7

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You insult me, and think that resolves things? I told you my view--you can take it or leave it. What you can't do is say I "run from it!" I answered every point. You disappoint.
You haven't answered the fact of scripture below, this states nothing about fire or the word dissolve

Once again You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creation"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

Randy Kluth

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You haven't answered the fact of scripture below, this states nothing about fire or the word dissolve

Once again You run from the fact, John saw a new heaven and earth, a "New Creation", the first heaven and earth have passed away (Gone)

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creation"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

I will answer it again, just in case you missed it, or others think that what you say is true. The "passing away" of the first heaven and the first earth" has to do with the passing away of the older order in which sin dominates on earth. Earthly possessions by undeserving people will have those possessions burned in the great war that is coming. The earth itself will not be dissolved because the Scriptures have said on more than one occasion that the earth is eternal.

So any sense that the "earth is passing away" would be understood by those who knew the Bible as a poetic way of saying, "If you've placed your stakes in this present world, you're going to lose everything." A new boss is in town. If that's "running from an issue," I guess I'll go ahead and take a victory lap?
 

Truth7t7

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I will answer it again, just in case you missed it, or others think that what you say is true. The "passing away" of the first heaven and the first earth" has to do with the passing away of the older order in which sin dominates on earth. Earthly possessions by undeserving people will have those possessions burned in the great war that is coming. The earth itself will not be dissolved because the Scriptures have said on more than one occasion that the earth is eternal.

So any sense that the "earth is passing away" would be understood by those who knew the Bible as a poetic way of saying, "If you've placed your stakes in this present world, you're going to lose everything." A new boss is in town. If that's "running from an issue," I guess I'll go ahead and take a victory lap?
That's it, if it doesn't align with ones belief, remove what is seen through symbolic biblical poetry, Smiles!
 

Keraz

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If your dogma is based on such sketchy connections I wouldn't trust you with my taxes, for sure!
The parallel between Isaiah 66:19 and the 144,000 of Revelation, is true. They both describe a 'set apart group', who will do the task set for them by the Lord.
I view your rejection of this, as an example of intransigence, of an inability to understand what the Prophets said.
The 'taxes' for this sort of rejection of scripture, may be quite heavy.

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.

This ordeal is logically and obviously; the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 62:1-5

A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-17, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him.
After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

Isaiah 66:18b-21 They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000, who will go out to all the world and proclaim the glory of the coming Kingdom.


From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there. Psalms 37:9-29, Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 specifically states.

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.


There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.
 

Oseas

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Chuckle!!!! It appears that you may not be real fond of the Catholic churches. Neither am I.

HOWEVER, whether you like it or not, God by His Holy Spirit DOES reach people IN the Catholic churches, Convict them of their sin, and bring them into Repentance and FAITH as born again believers. Some Leave Catholicism for more accurate church systems, and some stay in as missionaries to their fellow Catholics.


The Charismatic Outpouring was a World Wide Spiritual Phenomenon (A Season of refreshing) which DIDN'T start in the Catholic Churches, but did effect them greatly. The Outpouring hit Notre Dame University like a ton of bricks, and led to Prayer meetings, repentance, people getting Born Again, and being "Baptised in the Holy Spirit" (to use AG vernacular).

My father attended and was an Evangelist of Assembly of GOD here in Brazil, in the State of São Paulo, I'm speaking of a time of many many decades ago. A certain day, he was called to pray for a neighbor, a man who was possessed. Before praying, my father used to read a text from the Gospels and give a short preaching. The moment my dad prayed being everyone standing, the demon manifested in the man and started speaking in tongues, similar to the Pentecostal service, that confused my dad for awhile, say a minute or two, but my dad discerned the spirit who spoke in tongues and was not deceived by the devil, on the contrary, my father in the name of JESUS made the devil stop speaking in tongues, and in the name of JESUS was the demon cast out of that man, he was freed and was evangelized according the Word of GOD.

Certainly The Charismatic Outpouring was a World Wide Spiritual Phenomenon similar as above discribed, and many were deceived by a spirit of demon because there was not discernment of spirit and all drank of the cup of the demons.

Acts 16:v.16 to 23
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,

21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:
 

Randy Kluth

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The parallel between Isaiah 66:19 and the 144,000 of Revelation, is true. They both describe a 'set apart group', who will do the task set for them by the Lord.

I don't see the connection. The Revelation is NT and Isa 66 is OT and refers to OT concepts, including the temple and the priesthood. Your connection is purely sketchy, since there is no obvious reference to Isa 66 in either Rev 7 or Rev 14. For example, how would you determine whether this group of Israel in exile is OT or NT? After all, the ones being judged are those who have eaten pig's meat, which is an OT law.

By contrast, the 144,000 are those who are being preserved--not going out to fetch brothers in exile! To try to shame me into accepting your word for it is most ignoble! If there is any question, it's best not to pontificate, but to look for more clarity.

Revelation 7:1-8 sets an earthly scene and says that 12,000 will come from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This is immediately followed by verses 9-14, telling about a huge crowd of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, who have just passed through a great ordeal.

Yes, and there is absolutely no mention of the 144,000 evangelizing to bring in a great multitude from all nations! Not only so, but it is irrational to think that this is what they would or could do in a time of Antichristian domination on earth. Most importantly, you are drawing assumptions that are not spelled out, and it's dangerous to do so. We are told not to add to the words of the Vision.

This ordeal is logically and obviously; the just previous, Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, that will destroy the attackers of Israel, as well as the ungodly Israelis. Many prophesies tell us that all of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed at that time, in preparation for the establishment of a righteous nation there. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 62:1-5

Yes, the people being cleansed in anticipation of their restoration are the Jews themselves--not Christians from other nations. Not only is that the logical assumption at the time of the writing, but it makes sense in the natural reading of the text.

A people who will be God’s witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

All Christians are "lights." That doesn't make all Christians evangelists or a relatively small group of people bringing a great multitude of nations to the Lord. It didn't require a lot of people to start the Church, doctrinally. But it requires a great amount of people to win whole peoples from all nations to the Lord.

Revelation 14:1-5 also tells us about the 144,000. The Lord stands on Mt Zion and they are with Him. John then sees a flying angel, who is loudly proclaiming the Gospel throughout the earth.

The angel is preaching the Gospel--not the 144,000!

We know that Bible prophecy is a little here, a little there, so to gain more understanding on this subject, we look at Isaiah 66:15-17, where it says the Lord will judge with fire and many will be killed by Him.
After that, He will gather His people, as many prophesies clearly state; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Jeremiah 23:3-4, +

Isaiah 66:18b-21 They are people from every nation, coming on every means of transport, a huge number of people, Jeremiah 31:8-9, some of whom, God will put a sign on and will send to the nations to proclaim His Glory . The 144,000, who will go out to all the world and proclaim the glory of the coming Kingdom.

I prefer to draw conclusions from the explicit statements in the text, rather than draw my own conclusions without any explicit statements from the text. There is no explicit connection between Isa 66 and Rev 7 and 14.

From these and other Bible prophesies, we are told that the Lord will correct the current situation of having ungodly people in His holy Land. Jeremiah 12:14 says He will uproot all of them and it will be only the righteous believers who will live there. Psalms 37:9-29, Isaiah 35, Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Sorry, this has all happened before. Israel was rooted out of the Promised Land, and then God restored them. He didn't restore a different people, but the *same people!*

Therefore, the sequence is: a soon to happen Day of disaster for the world and all who stood firm in their faith and called out to the Lord for His protection, will go to live in all of the holy Land. There: soon after the fiery Judgement, the Lord will be revealed to them, as 2 Thessalonians 1:4b-10 specifically states.

You are all about judgment. We should focus on salvation so that some will not have to face judgment. That's the Gospel--not becoming doomsday prophets!

He will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and all the people will be divided into 12 groups according to their family characteristics. From each of them, He will select 12,000 young men, who will go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. The ‘angel’ of Revelation 14:6-7 is symbolic for them and Luke 10:1-10 is the precursor.

I believe this is obviously symbolic because the tribes are no longer distinguished and weren't distinguished, geographically, in the time this was written. They are all called "Jews" today. Get your own promises from your own nationality!

There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.

Now you're false prophesying? Just when I was beginning to think you were "normal!" The first sign that your Bible interpretation is off is the setting of dates.
 
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Truth7t7

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There will be more trials and testing for those people, as prophesied, but it will not be more than 20 years, before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign.
Mark your calendars we have a date setter in the house!
 

Bob Carabbio

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Certainly The Charismatic Outpouring was a World Wide Spiritual Phenomenon similar as above discribed, and many were deceived by a spirit of demon because there was not discernment of spirit and all drank of the cup of the demons.

So, in summary, Your Father experienced a situation wherein a Demonized person spoke in tongues (and I'm completely aware that this does happen). As a result, YOU have decided that ALL tongues speakers (including myself) in 2022 are demonized, and the Charismatic outpouring was a demonic phenomenon.
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Have I got that right??
 
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