will faith still be here?

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Timtofly

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Yes, but what Jesus said is hyperbole. He was suggesting that conditions would be like Noah, when there was little faith left on the earth to justify a continuation of the world. In the last days, world judgment will come because there will be so few real practicing Christians on earth. Already, those who follow Christ with a sincere heart are getting scarcer and scarcer. And I believe it won't require a Pretrib Rapture for faith to virtually disappear from the earth.

I don't think this is saying there will be no faith--just not enough faith to hold back judgment from destroying a good part of the earth. If you will notice, much of the world destruction described in the book of Revelation is measured out, and is not the equivalent of complete annihilation. In some places it's a fourth of the earth, and in other places a third of the earth.

But it will encompass the whole earth in the sense that all will be brought to a place of responsibility. Still, there will be mercy because God is always merciful if there is hope for repentance. And I believe a solid remnant of Jews will repent at the Return of Jesus. And even now, there are many Jews coming to accept Jesus as Messiah. This may be the Christian remnant that the 144,000 in this vision represented?

If every one had faith in God, there would not be any tribulation at all. They all would be the church and taken out. The amount of tribulation is directly proportional to the faith that will be found.

What mission is that? I don't see a mission plan. They follow Christ, and they are protected--that's all. Nothing about some big world evangelism project that they accomplish in 7 years (ignoring the fact they didn't even have time to mature as Christians and get to know how to minister the word of God to others).
With God, all things are possible.
 

Truth7t7

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My goodness, don't you read that there is a Millennial age in Reve 20? So much for saying it isn't in the Bible? And the Millennial age is the equivalent of what is called in the OT the "Hope of Israel." Israel hoped for the Messianic Age, which John fully understood as a Jew.

And so, when John wrote about the Millennial age, surely he had the Hope of Israel, the Messianic Age, in mind? It is definitely in the Bible!
Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Keraz

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What mission is that? I don't see a mission plan. They follow Christ, and they are protected--that's all. Nothing about some big world evangelism project that they accomplish in 7 years
Isaiah 66:19 tells us about the mission of the 144,000....they will declare His glory to the nations.
The 'flying angel' of Revelation 14:6-7, is a metaphor for them.
 

Randy Kluth

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Isaiah 66:19 tells us about the mission of the 144,000....they will declare His glory to the nations.
The 'flying angel' of Revelation 14:6-7, is a metaphor for them.

I was referring to what the context of the 144,000 was talking about in the book of Revelation. You can connect this anywhere you like in another context, and the connection is questionable. But when we're talking about the actual context of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation, we read *nothing* about some supposed evangelism project on a world scale, which is what Dispensationalists claim they do.
 

Randy Kluth

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Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

We can only speak of a heavenly Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom. The entire focus of the coming Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of heaven coming to earth. So yes, we have an "earthly Kingdom," despite the fact you wish to deny it. The many eschatological references in the NT have a source in Dan 7:

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. "

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

This is definitely an Earthly Kingdom! There are two resurrections here in the book of Revelation, as can be seen in ch. 20, and not just one.

The implication is that some people in the Millennium have yet to experience a resurrection to immortality. The implication is that they remain mortal in the Millennial period until it comes time to experience the 2nd resurrection and become immortal.

Clearly, this is in the Scriptures!
 
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Randy Kluth

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If every one had faith in God, there would not be any tribulation at all. They all would be the church and taken out. The amount of tribulation is directly proportional to the faith that will be found.

Never does everyone have faith in God until we see the New Jerusalem. But there is always some faith on the earth, or the whole earth would be wiped out. There has to at least be a Noah!

Tribulation is directed primarily at those who have known God and yet turn away from Him. The Jews were punished with "great distress," as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse--a continuing tribulation that continues until the nation is restored.

There is never a reason to take the Church out of the earth, since the purpose of the Church is to inherit the earth. Elijah was taken out because his ministry was finished. Enoch was taken out simply because God preferred to do so.

But people of faith are not taken out because they are people of faith. If they were all of faith they would be left here to establish God's Kingdom on earth. We cannot do so now because there are so many who are resistant to God's Kingdom being on earth.
 
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Truth7t7

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We can only speak of a heavenly Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom. The entire focus of the coming Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of heaven coming to earth. So yes, we have an "earthly Kingdom," despite the fact you wish to deny it. The many eschatological references in the NT have a source in Dan 7:

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. "



Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

This is definitely an Earthly Kingdom! There are two resurrections here in the book of Revelation, as can be seen in ch. 20, and not just one.

The implication is that some people in the Millennium have yet to experience a resurrection to immortality. The implication is that they remain mortal in the Millennial period until it comes time to experience the 2nd resurrection and become immortal.

Clearly, this is in the Scriptures!
There's no Millennial Kingdom on this earth seen in Revelation 20:1-6, let alone mortal humans running around as Jesus sits on a throne somewhere

You can scream a Millennial Kingdom exist, it's not found in scripture, just as a pre-trib rapture isnt
 

Truth7t7

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We can only speak of a heavenly Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom. The entire focus of the coming Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of heaven coming to earth. So yes, we have an "earthly Kingdom," despite the fact you wish to deny it. The many eschatological references in the NT have a source in Dan 7:

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. "



Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

This is definitely an Earthly Kingdom! There are two resurrections here in the book of Revelation, as can be seen in ch. 20, and not just one.

The implication is that some people in the Millennium have yet to experience a resurrection to immortality. The implication is that they remain mortal in the Millennial period until it comes time to experience the 2nd resurrection and become immortal.

Clearly, this is in the Scriptures!
Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Randy Kluth

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Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation?

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ?

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

You ignore everything I shared, and just continue to assert that the earth will be dissolved by fire. That's what fire does!! It *dissolves* things. The present order is to be overthrown--we *all* agree on that, brother! Clearly, it is not talking about the annihilation of the planet because the Scriptures clearly state that the earth is eternal! It will be re-made--not annihilated!

To say that the whole earth will be burned by fire indicates all peoples across the earth will suffer loss of some of their worldly possessions. There is a difference in saying that all will suffer and saying all will be extinguished. What will perish will be the order of things. To continue to assert the annihilation of the planet goes against clear Scriptures, indicating you're not reading these passages correctly.

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

To say the earth is passing away is just a poetic way of saying the old order is passing away. It is not saying the planet is disappearing, and a new one being created to take its place!

When you do that you contradict the passages of Scriptures that clearly assert that the old earth will not actually disappear--it is only the *order of things* that will pass away.

That is what is meant by the passing of the "old earth." Words mean what they mean *in context*--otherwise, language can be twisted to mean whatever you wish it to mean!

My thought is that the last war in this age will include a battle so severe that it will be like a world war rolled up into a single hour-long battle, replete with nukes, fires, and mass destruction. It will bring an end to the empire of Antichrist, and reduce the power of all nations allied with him or even those warring against him.

The end result will be an end to the old order, in which pagan nations and antiChristian nations thrive and persecute Christian nations and Christianity. That "old earth" will pass away! And the Kingdom of Christ will have come to earth in the form of renewed Christian nations, no longer subject to the abuses of ungodly nations. The Church will, from heaven, assert control over the earth, and protect the continuation of the many nations promised to Abraham.
 
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Randy Kluth

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There's no Millennial Kingdom on this earth seen in Revelation 20:1-6, let alone mortal humans running around as Jesus sits on a throne somewhere

You can scream a Millennial Kingdom exist, it's not found in scripture, just as a pre-trib rapture isnt

I'm not screaming anything! What makes you think I'm "screaming?" You seem to be the hot-tempered one? I'm just asserting my opinion.

When you say a thousand year reign of Christ on earth isn't Scriptural, I obviously will take issue with that when clearly a Millennial Age is given in Rev 20 and it is described as a Kingdom *on earth* in Rev 11. And when we are told there is not just one, but two resurrections, this indicates that all is not finished at Christ's 1st Coming.

So who's "screaming?" This is just a difference of opinion.
 

Keraz

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I was referring to what the context of the 144,000 was talking about in the book of Revelation. You can connect this anywhere you like in another context, and the connection is questionable. But when we're talking about the actual context of the 144,000 in the book of Revelation, we read *nothing* about some supposed evangelism project on a world scale, which is what Dispensationalists claim they do.
I just gave you 2 'likes' for your good replies to other posters.
But this one gets a X for your rejection of the use of other Prophesies to help explain Revelation.

Isaiah 66:18b 21 is plainly about the gathering of the faithful peoples and how the Lord will take some of then to proclaim His coming Kingdom. Just as Revelation 7:1-14 and Rev 14:1-7 prophesies.
Luke 10:1-10 is the preview for how the 144,000 will go out in pairs to the nations and will say: Fear God and pay Him homage for His Judgment is at hand. Worship Him, who made heaven and earth.... Rev 14:7
Two of them will stay in Jerusalem; the two Witnesses. Revelation 11:3

Regarding the efforts of the Church to evangelize the nations: I have been involved in this effort and my experience is that we don't get very far with converting anyone.
 

Randy Kluth

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I just gave you 2 'likes' for your good replies to other posters.
But this one gets a X for your rejection of the use of other Prophesies to help explain Revelation.

I'll take any "likes" I can get, brother! ;)

Isaiah 66:18b 21 is plainly about the gathering of the faithful peoples and how the Lord will take some of then to proclaim His coming Kingdom. Just as Revelation 7:1-14 and Rev 14:1-7 prophesies.
Luke 10:1-10 is the preview for how the 144,000 will go out in pairs to the nations and will say: Fear God and pay Him homage for His Judgment is at hand. Worship Him, who made heaven and earth.... Rev 14:7
Two of them will stay in Jerusalem; the two Witnesses. Revelation 11:3

I understand that you're connecting Isa 66 to Rev 7 and 14! If they are truly connected then I see your point. I'm just not sure they are connected?

So, my concern was that *in the context of Rev 7 and 14, I don't see evidence of 144,000 Jews winning the whole world to Christ during a "Great Tribulation of 7 years!" ;) Cross-reference all you like, but I'm just referring to the particular references in the book of Revelation. The context of the actual passages referring to the 144,000 is more important than hypothetical cross-referencing!

The danger here is that you subtract from what is actually written about the 144,000 if you cross-reference to the exclusion of what is being actually said about them. They are being preserved and protected, as a sign that Abraham's promise of a complete "Nation" is being fulfilled. There is no mention of Abraham, but there is an effort to explain that every tribe is being equally represented.

Tribes are no longer important, as I've pointed out before. Tribal divisions were important largely in the development stage, or in regard to the priesthood when that was still in effect. But tribal divisions have long lost their importance in the face of God's ultimate goal being a "nation."

The tribes, therefore, are only mentioned to indicate that the entire nation, as originally evolved, will be fulfilled in the endtimes, when Christ returns. This is the exact opposite of what you're saying, that "Israel" is now to be defined as the International Church! If you don't agree with my views here, I'm not surprised you don't "like" them! ;)

Regarding the efforts of the Church to evangelize the nations: I have been involved in this effort and my experience is that we don't get very far with converting anyone.

The world is increasingly resistant to evangelism. There are pockets of success still happening throughout the world. Reinhard Bonnke is a great example of recent successes in African evangelism. But I believe that when people leave their "first love," they become resistant to evangelism. From here on out, perhaps we should expect that we can only reach the "few?"
 

Truth7t7

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You ignore everything I shared, and just continue to assert that the earth will be dissolved by fire. That's what fire does!! It *dissolves* things. The present order is to be overthrown--we *all* agree on that, brother! Clearly, it is not talking about the annihilation of the planet because the Scriptures clearly state that the earth is eternal! It will be re-made--not annihilated!

To say that the whole earth will be burned by fire indicates all peoples across the earth will suffer loss of some of their worldly possessions. There is a difference in saying that all will suffer and saying all will be extinguished. What will perish will be the order of things. To continue to assert the annihilation of the planet goes against clear Scriptures, indicating you're not reading these passages correctly.

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

To say the earth is passing away is just a poetic way of saying the old order is passing away. It is not saying the planet is disappearing, and a new one being created to take its place!

When you do that you contradict the passages of Scriptures that clearly assert that the old earth will not actually disappear--it is only the *order of things* that will pass away.

That is what is meant by the passing of the "old earth." Words mean what they mean *in context*--otherwise, language can be twisted to mean whatever you wish it to mean!

My thought is that the last war in this age will include a battle so severe that it will be like a world war rolled up into a single hour-long battle, replete with nukes, fires, and mass destruction. It will bring an end to the empire of Antichrist, and reduce the power of all nations allied with him or even those warring against him.

The end result will be an end to the old order, in which pagan nations and antiChristian nations thrive and persecute Christian nations and Christianity. That "old earth" will pass away! And the Kingdom of Christ will have come to earth in the form of renewed Christian nations, no longer subject to the abuses of ungodly nations. The Church will, from heaven, assert control over the earth, and protect the continuation of the many nations promised to Abraham.
This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creaction"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"All These Things Shall Be Dissolved"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Truth7t7

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We can only speak of a heavenly Kingdom and an earthly Kingdom. The entire focus of the coming Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of heaven coming to earth. So yes, we have an "earthly Kingdom," despite the fact you wish to deny it. The many eschatological references in the NT have a source in Dan 7:

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed....
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him. "



Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

This is definitely an Earthly Kingdom! There are two resurrections here in the book of Revelation, as can be seen in ch. 20, and not just one.

The implication is that some people in the Millennium have yet to experience a resurrection to immortality. The implication is that they remain mortal in the Millennial period until it comes time to experience the 2nd resurrection and become immortal.

Clearly, this is in the Scriptures!
Your claim is error, no earthly Kingdom or mortal humans are seen below, it's a fairy tale

The focus is the "Eternal" New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, that's revealed at the second coming


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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Randy Kluth

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This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creaction"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Once again, I posted a couple of verses indicating the earth, as we presently know it, will last forever. Are you just going to ignore that? Post #169:

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.


Again, you have a hopeless contradiction unless you, like me, recognize this change from the old universe to a new universe actually indicates a change in dispensation or age. It refers to the end of an old way, to be replaced with a new way--not the annihilation of a planet to be replaced by a new planet!

Don't keep posting me things that we already know and agree on. We both believe the Scriptures. We are discussing different interpretations of the same. You are *not* addressing that!
 

Randy Kluth

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Your claim is error, no earthly Kingdom or mortal humans are seen below, it's a fairy tale

The focus is the "Eternal" New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, that's revealed at the second coming


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

I answered that in post #165.
 

Truth7t7

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Once again, I posted a couple of verses indicating the earth, as we presently know it, will last forever. Are you just going to ignore that? Post #169:

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.
Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.


Again, you have a hopeless contradiction unless you, like me, recognize this change from the old universe to a new universe actually indicates a change in dispensation or age. It refers to the end of an old way, to be replaced with a new way--not the annihilation of a planet to be replaced by a new planet!

Don't keep posting me things that we already know and agree on. We both believe the Scriptures. We are discussing different interpretations of the same. You are *not* addressing that!
The "Earth" will be eternal, it's called the "New Earth" not the moon, venus, mars, but "New Earth"

Isaiah 24:19-20KJV
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
 

Randy Kluth

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The "Earth" will be eternal, it's called the "New Earth" not the moon, venus, mars, but "New Earth"

Isaiah 24:19-20KJV
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

I think you know that circumvents the issue. Yes, the new "earth" includes the earth as it is--not some other earth. ;)

The earth is *already* eternal. And that's the point. When it is said a New Earth is created, it is a poetic way of saying ownership of the earth has "changed hands." It is no longer the Devil's earth, but rather, Christ's earth (as if it was anything other than Christ's!). ;)
 

Truth7t7

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I think you know that circumvents the issue. Yes, the new "earth" includes the earth as it is--not some other earth. ;)

The earth is *already* eternal. And that's the point. When it is said a New Earth is created, it is a poetic way of saying ownership of the earth has "changed hands." It is no longer the Devil's earth, but rather, Christ's earth (as if it was anything other than Christ's!). ;)
No poetry whatsoever as you claim, this earth will be literally "Dissolved" into it's very elements, simple and very easy to understand

This earth will pass away, behold I make all things new

"A New Creaction"


Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

"All These Things Shall Be Dissolved"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 

Randy Kluth

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No poetry whatsoever as you claim, this earth will be literally "Dissolved" into it's very elements, simple and very easy to understand

Boy are you hard-headed! I've said that the dissolution of the elements is precisely what all fires do! Saying the elements are dissolved is nothing more than saying there will be fires all across the earth. The "earth" doesn't have to refer to the entire planet itself--it can also refer to the entire sphere of the earth, such as all the people or all the plants on it.

In this case, I view this as a generalization, that things across the earth are going to be burned--not that every plant and every person and the dirt itself is going to be dissolved into nothingness. As I keep saying, there are Scriptures indicating the present earth is "eternal." You just ignore that. Is that what you do with other Scriptures you don't like?

I don't really want you to get upset with me--I'm just giving you my opinions. You don't have to agree with it. But neither is it valuable to keep on asserting the same arguments without addressing the responses.

The Scriptures speak of the futility of storing up wealth on earth in view of the fact it is dissolved over time. Physical things break down, such as plants. And people themselves break down and die. It is futile to try to preserve our lives indefinitely.

But the " fire" that is coming to further dissolve things speaks of the judgment of God's wrath, which accompanies the Return of Christ. It amplifies what we already know about physical things, including our possessions. The melting of the very elements suggests not just the breaking down of plants, but more, even things we possess made of metal that we can't save.

So I do believe to say God is creating a "New Earth," when He's already said He created the earth to last forever, indicates poetically that a transition is happening. The old order of things is phasing out, punctuating by the fires of Armageddon, which I think is a world war setting on fire many cities across the earth.

The lesson is: get your things in order. You can't bring anything of this life with you to Heaven. An eternal Kingdom is coming to earth, and the old operating system is soon to be defunct. It has nothing to do with the death of a planet...in my opinion.
 
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