will faith still be here?

[GRACE ambassador]

The change mentioned after the Millennium in Rev 20 does not preclude an earlier transformation at the beginning of the Millennium. There is no theology forbidding a transformation of Christians at that time. On the contrary, our change is reiterated time and again that we are transformed into immortal, glorified bodies *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ--not 1000 years later. Those who are transformed a thousand years later are part of the "2nd resurrection."

So it is you are aren't Scriptural in this regard. You may argue against a few passages, but not against the consensus of Scriptures that portray our glorification *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. You may argue words like "glorification," but apart from this, Christians have had no problem seeing the very purpose of Christ's Coming at his 2nd Advent as being to transform his Church into immortality.

To be "glorified" can have the sense of being vindicated. For example, Jesus is here portrayed as about to be resurrected in the sense of obtaining physical transformation...

John 7.39 Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified... 12.16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that these things had been done to him... 13.31 When he was gone, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

Notice in ch. 13 that there is an immediate glorification in the sense of vindication, followed up by a future sense of glorification at the transformation of Jesus into immortality in heaven. It happens "at once," just as it will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" for Christians at their transformation to immortality.

Notice below in Acts 3 how the process of glorifying Jesus ends with his resurrection...

Acts 3.13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead.

And here, Peter describes Jesus' resurrection as "glorification."

1 Pet 1.21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

It is in this light that you can understand how Paul viewed "glorified bodies" of the saints to be revealed at the 2nd Coming.

2 Thes 1.10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.

The resurrection is inextricably linked to the glorification of our bodies. And according to Paul this takes place at the 2nd Coming, which is when the "1st Resurrection" takes place.

Rev 20.4 They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

1 Cor 15.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.



It may seem like Sci Fi to you, but that's exactly what Revelation portrays are the Armies in heaven. They are glorified saints, since they wear white.

Rev 3.5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white.
Rev 19.14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Precious friend, of course the "post-trib" theology is in Conflict With
God's Sound Doctrine!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

---------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------

Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑

 

[Truth7t7]

Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

---------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation, And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.

---------------------------------------------------------

Please Be Very Richly Blessed, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:
Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑

Not one scripture reference you provided shows a "Pre-Trib" rapture of the church to heaven

Please pick two verses at a time, and we will investigate the claim made, thanks

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

Precious friend, of course the "post-trib" theology is in Conflict With
God's Sound Doctrine!:

You have a real problem with that. You're saying that the majority of Christians for 1800 years were in error for being Postrib, and that those Christians who since 1830 count themselves Pretrib got it right late in history without any reasonable basis? This is the historical argument against Pretrib, that the claim that it existed at all in Church history prior to 1830 was sketchy at best.

So very few Christian scholars and leaders ever believed that the Bible taught an early exit for the Church. This was John Darby's brainchild, and certainly not a conventional interpretation of any biblical passage, whether Enoch's rapture, Elijah's rapture, Jesus' own rapture, or the rapture to heaven of the Apostle John in Rev 4. None of these historically were interpreted to mean a Pretrib Rapture.

Beyond this we could discuss each passage that *you think* teaches Pretrib. But for sure, there is absolutely *no* explicit theology teaching Pretrib in the Bible. It has to be "read into" various passages, and all of its arguments therefore are by supposed inference, or by arguments from symbolic allusion. Therefore, I could never again turn to Pretribism.

By contrast, Postribism is explicitly taught *as a theology* in both the Olivet Discourse and 2 Thes 2, as well as Rev 19. Nothing could be clearer to me. All of these NT references rest upon the foundation of Postrib in Dan 7, where the Son of Man returns from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on earth. That is when the saints are saved.

 

[Truth7t7]

All of these NT references rest upon the foundation of Postrib in Dan 7, where the Son of Man returns from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on earth. That is when the saints are saved.

No place in Daniel 7 does it teach Jesus returns to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, no place

Scripture below clearly teaches Jesus will rule in a Kingdom which will not be destroyed

Millennialist teaches that 2 Peter 3:10-13 takes place after their supposed Millennium, as the earth is destroyed by fire

Its apparent your using the Eternal kingdom seen, and trying to pass it off as a mortal Millennial Kingdom on this earth

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No place in Daniel 7 does it teach Jesus returns to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, no place

Of course any argument I'm using concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God would not make sense to an Amil.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course any argument I'm using concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God would not make sense to an Amil.

No place in Daniel 7 does it teach Jesus returns to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, no place

Scripture below clearly teaches Jesus will rule in a Kingdom which will not be destroyed

Millennialist teach that 2 Peter 3:10-13 takes place after their supposed Millennium, as the earth is destroyed by fire

Its apparent your using the Eternal kingdom seen, and trying to pass it off as a mortal Millennial Kingdom on this earth

The very same way dispensationalist dream up a pre-trib rapture not seen in scripture, millennialist do the same with a 1,000 year Kingdom on this earth

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Precious friend, of course the "post-trib" theology is in Conflict With
God's Sound Doctrine!:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE, Is Found In:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...

[/QUOTE]

I could summarize the above "non-argument for a Pretrib Rapture" as the assertion of a Dispensationalist division between NT saints and people under Law and the difference between coming *for* and coming *with.* These two points have been argued interminably, but I'll briefly repeat.

The fact of a difference between the Save and the Unsaved in no way means that the Saved must leave before the Reign of Antichrist. Indeed, the book of Revelation was written to the Church to encourage them to endure in this time and in any time prior to that that is like that time period.

Jesus' comes both for and with the Church at the same time. Paul said that our glorification will take place in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye. Therefore, Jesus catches the Church to heaven in a moment of time, to be transformed to immortality, so that we participate in his return from heaven.

Nuff said.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Postribism is explicitly taught *as a theology* in both the Olivet Discourse

ONLY IF one Anticipates revelation, and "READS THAT WHICH IS UNKNOWN," The Body Of CHRIST, According To The "THEN UNKNOWN" Revelation Of The MYSTERY, INTO "the Olivet discourse," TO THE JEWS only!

Peace, And Comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57)
Pray tell WHICH "post-trib" scholar authorizes READING These INTO:

the Olivet discourse???

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Nuff said.

Ok. Gotcha...

 

[Truth7t7]

ONLY IF one Anticipates revelation, and "READS THAT WHICH IS UNKNOWN," The Body Of CHRIST, According To The "THEN UNKNOWN" Revelation Of The MYSTERY, INTO "the Olivet discourse," TO THE JEWS only!

Peace, And Comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57)
Pray tell WHICH "post-trib" scholar authorizes READING These INTO:

the Olivet discourse???

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Is (The End) Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Claimed

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Truth7t7]

ONLY IF one Anticipates revelation, and "READS THAT WHICH IS UNKNOWN," The Body Of CHRIST, According To The "THEN UNKNOWN" Revelation Of The MYSTERY, INTO "the Olivet discourse," TO THE JEWS only!

Peace, And Comfort (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57)
Pray tell WHICH "post-trib" scholar authorizes READING These INTO:

the Olivet discourse???

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No place in Daniel 7 does it teach Jesus returns to start a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, no place

Scripture below clearly teaches Jesus will rule in a Kingdom which will not be destroyed

Millennialist teach that 2 Peter 3:10-13 takes place after their supposed Millennium, as the earth is destroyed by fire

Its apparent your using the Eternal kingdom seen, and trying to pass it off as a mortal Millennial Kingdom on this earth

The Kingdom that will not be destroyed begins as an age of mortality, and ends with an end to all mortality. The Kingdom itself is to be distinguished from mortal mankind. It is the heavenly Kingdom, established on earth through Christ and the Church, that is eternal and indestructible.

Jesus' reign, once begun in the Millennium, will never end. Nothing prohibits this eternal reign from beginning while mankind is still mortal. You won't be able to show that.

On the contrary, the Scriptures show that Jesus' reign begins at his Coming. And when that happens, his reign is said to be never-ending, notwithstanding the continuation of mortal mankind for a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Kingdom that will not be destroyed begins as an age of mortality, and ends with an end to all mortality. The Kingdom itself is to be distinguished from mortal mankind. It is the heavenly Kingdom, established on earth through Christ and the Church, that is eternal and indestructible.

Jesus' reign, once begun in the Millennium, will never end. Nothing prohibits this eternal reign from beginning while mankind is still mortal. You won't be able to show that.

On the contrary, the Scriptures show that Jesus' reign begins at his Coming. And when that happens, his reign is said to be never-ending, notwithstanding the continuation of mortal mankind for a thousand years.

I Strongly Disagree, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, (The End)

The Kingdom seen after this final judgement is eternal Revelation 21 & 22

There isnt a Millennial Kingdom found on this earth in scripture, you can bend and twist all you want, it's not there, just as a pre-trib rapture isnt there

 

[GRACE ambassador]

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Is (The End) Not A Pre-Trib Rapture As Claimed

Amen! (The END) Of God's (Parenthetical) Age Of GRACE, For The Body Of
CHRIST, With a PRE-Trib ("REMOVAL of ALL ambassadors") Departure...
GRACE/MYSTERY (Romans Through Philemon!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Prophecy:
...BEFORE Declaring War And JUDGMENT on an UNbelieving world, in the
TIME Of (Israel's) JACOB's Trouble! (Daniel, Matthew, AND Revelation!)

NOT The Body Of CHRIST's trouble, which we Have Suffered for
(The Last 2000 Years!) = IMMINENT:

Great GRACE Departure To God's Wonderful GloryLand! ♫ ↑

See: # 141
Things "That Are Different, Simply CANNOT Be The SAME," Correct?

We Must NEVER "Mix UP"(Confusion) What God Has Commanded TO:
"study" (prayerfully/Carefully), Rightly Divided! Amen?

Just in case, God Does Have More Confirmation:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In JESUS CHRIST!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friend(s):

Interesting is the Dumbest thing some have for doctrine. "What God Gave
Peter And Paul Are EXACTLY the SAME"? Really?? Wow!

The God I know "Had A Secret Hidden In HIM, Revealed The Revelation
Of The MYSTERY" To Paul, BUT: WAIT "He Already revealed The Exact SAME
thing To Peter and the eleven"???

Wow, Must be time for me TO GO, Eh?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Precious friend(s):

Interesting is the Dumbest thing some have for doctrine. "What God Gave
Peter And Paul Are EXACTLY the SAME"? Really?? Wow!

The God I know "Had A Secret Hidden In HIM, Revealed The Revelation
Of The MYSTERY" To Paul, BUT: WAIT "He Already revealed The Exact SAME
thing To Peter and the eleven"???

Wow, Must be time for me TO GO, Eh?

You can go if you want to, but the Scriptures say Christ is coming back after the Jewish Tribulation of the present age, and on the last day of the age. The 2nd Coming is never divided up into two comings! Christ is coming exlicitly to *destroy Antichrist,* according to 2 Thes 2. To claim otherwise is to disbelieve Scriptures, and that isn't wise.

Your argument here is as good as any false religion's claim that it has a "secret knowledge." Biblical Theology is based on explicit statements, or doctrine, and not on inferences, symbolic interpretation, or "secret revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

Okay, I see where you're coming from. However, that just provides me with the opportunity to argue against that. If there is no Church on earth, then there is no faith on earth.

Genuine biblical faith is based on a life-change, one that turns from the ways of this world to a life reflective of trusting in the Lord. If the Church left this world, God would have to re-create a Church on earth through conversion in order to have faith.

However, that argument, which I've heard all my life, is absurd to the max. If it's taken 2000 years to evangelize the world, it is utterly impossible to convert people from scratch and create a universal witness in just a few short years.

Is that not like saying was there faith before Moses was born? Or was there faith before Christ was born?

Obviously if the Church is gone and all on earth reject God, there would be no faith.

Some say 144,000 Jews will convert the world in 7 years (I don't even buy into a 7 years "Tribulation"--I read only of a 3.5 year reign of Antichrist). However, for a non-Christian group to convert without Christians to witness to them, and to mature quick enough to become witnesses themselves is crazy. And for them to start evangelizing the world and complete the task in 7 years is crazy!

Those 144k were sealed by angels. They had no say in what happened to them. They either accepted their mission, or God took over and they got lost in the machine and are just robots.

Pretty sure they embraced, obeyed, and now we have faith restored on earth in the 144k.

Yes, neither would I argue that Noah was trusting in "his own knowledge." He was rather trusting in the word of God to his conscience. That is, as I said, the definition of having "faith." But it has everything to do with believing precisely what God was saying. And that entailed the fact the Flood was coming.

Faith without works ends in death. Obviously Noah worked out his faith and obeyed God.

I think faith is strictly an adaptation to God's word to our spirit, in which we choose to follow that word and become like God in the way we live. We perceive God as different than we are in our carnal selves, and then mystically change into His image by obeying His word. When we do this completely, we are reborn and exercise true, biblical faith.

Faith does look odd to the world because it is based on a supernatural revelation. When others see the sky as sunny and predictable, Noah in his faith foresaw the coming storm. When Abraham looked lost and confused, leaving his home and family, he saw, by his faith, an inheritance in a land already possessed by other peoples.

Most importantly, when we see, by faith, Jesus as the Son of God, we are looked at as if we are following just a man and his teaching. But in our faith we adapt to the word of Christ and become like him, spiritually, ethically, and behaviorally.

The world may deny that we are changed, but in fact, we are. True biblical faith does that--it is faith in God's word to us, which contains the power to obey it. Our faith chooses to grasp hold of that power so that we do change.

Accepting the Atonement is a step of faith. It is also the second birth, into the spiritual family of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I Strongly Disagree, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, (The End)

The Kingdom seen after this final judgement is eternal Revelation 21 & 22

There isnt a Millennial Kingdom found on this earth in scripture, you can bend and twist all you want, it's not there, just as a pre-trib rapture isnt there

My goodness, don't you read that there is a Millennial age in Reve 20? So much for saying it isn't in the Bible? And the Millennial age is the equivalent of what is called in the OT the "Hope of Israel." Israel hoped for the Messianic Age, which John fully understood as a Jew.

And so, when John wrote about the Millennial age, surely he had the Hope of Israel, the Messianic Age, in mind? It is definitely in the Bible!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is that not like saying was there faith before Moses was born? Or was there faith before Christ was born?

Obviously if the Church is gone and all on earth reject God, there would be no faith.

Yes, but what Jesus said is hyperbole. He was suggesting that conditions would be like Noah, when there was little faith left on the earth to justify a continuation of the world. In the last days, world judgment will come because there will be so few real practicing Christians on earth. Already, those who follow Christ with a sincere heart are getting scarcer and scarcer. And I believe it won't require a Pretrib Rapture for faith to virtually disappear from the earth.

I don't think this is saying there will be no faith--just not enough faith to hold back judgment from destroying a good part of the earth. If you will notice, much of the world destruction described in the book of Revelation is measured out, and is not the equivalent of complete annihilation. In some places it's a fourth of the earth, and in other places a third of the earth.

But it will encompass the whole earth in the sense that all will be brought to a place of responsibility. Still, there will be mercy because God is always merciful if there is hope for repentance. And I believe a solid remnant of Jews will repent at the Return of Jesus. And even now, there are many Jews coming to accept Jesus as Messiah. This may be the Christian remnant that the 144,000 in this vision represented?

Those 144k were sealed by angels. They had no say in what happened to them. They either accepted their mission, or God took over and they got lost in the machine and are just robots.

What mission is that? I don't see a mission plan. They follow Christ, and they are protected--that's all. Nothing about some big world evangelism project that they accomplish in 7 years (ignoring the fact they didn't even have time to mature as Christians and get to know how to minister the word of God to others).