Spiritual Shepherding

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Nancy

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I wondered about that. I’ve thought that just because I’m aware of no sin does not mean there are not some deeply embedded in me that I can’t see but God can. It’s still a great relief though to not be tortured. And it’s also wonderful to receive understanding of scripture in a solidly firm way rather than working so hard to try to understand in such cloudiness.

Would love to be there too Jen, but I think at this point Id need a lobotomy! lol.
 

VictoryinJesus

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The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith (Titus 1:4) and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ (Phil.3:14). Some might suggest that this smacks of the “clergy-laity” split that has afflicted the church throughout history. However, the clergy system is both artificial and a usurpation of God’s order of
spiritual shepherding.


In the church of God, there is to be a spiritual and holy oversight by men who are led by the Spirit. Few indeed will enter into the resurrection power of eternal life while in these mortal bodies. In the church of God, we come together to flow in eternal unity. We gather together in order to fulfill the requirement of actually being the church of God, that is, to be ruled over by the Lord. We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence. The prophets that God has gifted to be in a given city must come to an agreement together. They are not to form different cliques based on personal ministries, as we see in the popular sectarian denominations. It is wrong to label the entities that are based on personal ministries as churches. Ministries are there to support the church, not the other way around. In the end, there is but one ministry, the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Under whose authority are we truly committing ourselves in what we call the church? What is bringing people together? Is it certain teachings that tickle the ears, or the presence and power of God?

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

What John is describing in the above verse is an invitation to fellowship with people who are already in fellowship with God. The early church was a place that formed disciples. There was an apprenticeship tradition established in the younger believers towards the deeper fellowship of a direct connection with God. The leadership of the church walked with God and nurtured that walk in the lives of others. At least, it did so in earlier times. But a man can’t lead another into a relationship that he doesn’t have himself.

The Nicolaitans, on the other hand, rule by the will of men through the carnal and religious power of the outer man (Rev. 2:15). The clergy system is a counterfeit to the legitimate rule in the church by holy men who are approved and empowered by God.

God doesn’t choose what men choose. We must determine whose church it will be. If it is to be the church of God, then it must be by the direction of God. Men can have no say in it. Christ is the Head of every man individually, but He is also the Head of His church corporately. The divine order is for men to stand in a place of authority in His name. But this requires the approval and anointing of God. No amount of education nor training from men can qualify a man to have authority over the faith of another (2 Cor. 1:24). In any case, spiritual leadership is by example not by lording it over others in the church. The love of God is what nurtures faith and faithfulness in all its members.

The people of God are brought together in an eternal moment by the living word. If we receive the prophet in the name of a prophet, then we will get the same consideration from God as the prophet does (Matt. 10:41). If we disregard the work of the Lord in any member of His body, then we are disregarding Him. If we don’t recognize those who are led by His Spirit then we will suffer spiritual famine.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:” (Amos 8:11)

If we wish to partake of the life and power that is afforded to the church, then we need to turn towards God once again in deep repentance. But even before that, we will need to consider the distance that the modern church has strayed from the apostolic tradition and authority that comes from abiding in the risen Christ.

@Episkopos my question is concerning even coming here on the forum. One thing I’ve for sure learned from being here is there are so many different perspectives and ideas. how can you ever know what you are following or buying into. I’m beginning to wonder if it is not basing all of your Hope in what others tell you is the right way but learning what is the right for yourself? Concerning shepherding what of “there shall be one fold, and one shepherd? John 10:16
 

stunnedbygrace

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@Episkopos my question is concerning even coming here on the forum. One thing I’ve for sure learned from being here is there are so many different perspectives and ideas. how can you ever know what you are following or buying into. I’m beginning to wonder if it is not basing all of your Hope in what others tell you is the right way but learning what is the right for yourself? Concerning shepherding what of “there shall be one fold, and one shepherd? John 10:16

ah, you know the right way to attain to all God might be pleased to give you, don’t you? Despite any and all conversations, you know the way is trust.
 

Episkopos

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'Walking in and out' of the Spirit is not scriptural, and gives the strong impression that one has a choice to come and go as we please whether to choose to be in the Spirit or not, and for however long we want. This is potentially dangerous doctrine if not clearly defined!
The very opposite is true. The only biblical description of a walk in the Spirit is that it is not natural or a common occurrence. The way of Christ is hard and narrow not easy and wide. You should check again the street signs where you are walking.
I laugh when people say that something is not in the bible when it clearly is. What it reveals is that most people only read into the bible what they already believe and fully ignore the plain text. Jesus said---

"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." John 10:9

Jesus is the door into eternal life and reality. Very very few have ever gone through the door into eternal life while in this world. Only people who have indeed gone through the eternal gate of Christ know that it is very very hard to remain there until a person is fully mature in Christ.

The problem with talking to rich Westerners is that they assume they already are doing great in the kingdom race. The proud get flustered when it is pointed out to them from the bible that perhaps they have not yet understood eternal things at any depth. These have been catered to in their flesh rather than challenged to enter into the very difficult school of Christ. Those who God loves He treats HARD. But most people are looking for affirmation and coddling. Why is it so hard to admit to a lack of experience in what is biblically expressed?

In the book of Revelation John records that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. Logic would say that since he says that that he was not ALWAYS in the Spirit at all times.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," Rev. 1:10

And no, falling out of the Spirit is not something we choose to do. A disciple wants to ALWAYS be with God. But God does things to make us grow into worthiness. He is in control of the true disciple. There are many things we can do that are not pleasing or even acceptable to God. So He disciplines His people by exposing them to eternal reality...in judgment...so that we might be worthy of our calling. I know that is another foreign concept for theorists.
Paul says that believers should put on Christ, the New Man, the armour of light...etc All of these references are about entering into Christ in the eternal reality, And he says this to people who are already believers.

Also in Revelation we get the words of Jesus that after judgment the saints will go no more OUT. What that means is that the training of going in and out of the Spirit is over. This is what Jesus says to those who overcome...who are saints who have been trained in the eternal reality of resurrection life.

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 3;12

Also, as deduced from your words, that we decide to set the pace of our movement is Christ is also unscriptural. We are not the one to decide these things if we are truly saved; even living in the flesh that is unreliable. Once we are in the Spirit of his Son, it then decides according to his plan what is set for our lives, as Christ's spirit is in us to ensure these 'good' works of the Spirit are completed in us for the glory of God.

Paul says in Galatians 5:16
(Greek NT TR) λεγω δε πνευματι περιπατειτε και επιθυμιαν σαρκος ου μη τελεσητε

(Greek NT TR+) λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S δεG1161 CONJ πνευματιG4151 N-DSN περιπατειτεG4043 V-PAM-2P καιG2532 CONJ επιθυμιανG1939 N-ASF σαρκοςG4561 N-GSF ουG3756 PRT-N μηG3361 PRT-N τελεσητεG5055 V-AAS-2P

(ISV) So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will never fulfill the desires of the flesh.

(GNB) What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature.

(Williams) I mean this: Practice living by the Spirit and then by no means will you gratify the cravings of your lower nature.

περιπατειτε => to be occupied, to live, to walk (about) with or in, to intimately follow, to habitually conduct as a lifestyle being in and always 'wearing' the Spirit as we live and breathe.

The goal is to become mature in the Spirit and thus to become one with the Spirit and always be walking or moving as one Spirit. This is not completely obtainable in this sin-biased mortal body of ours unless God possesses and overrides our spirit completely.

Possesses yes, overrides no. We always retain our free will. Nobody naturally only does all things to please God. We need to be trained into the full stature of Christ. To suggest as you do that one can sin and remain in holiness is completely unscriptural and the most dangerous false doctrine one can teach. Let not many be teachers. You are advocating a sinful holiness. That is a doctrine of demons. We cannot remain in God's presence and choose to sin. Read Hebrews to see how severely God deals with those who abuse His grace.

There is no scripture that suggests we 'walk out' of the Spirit when we sin or become distracted, unfocused, or offend/squelch/neutralize the Spirit.

Saying we 'walk out' of the Spirit suggested we are now walking in(to) the flesh as we did before the Spirit joined, to our spirit. Our spirit does not move anywhere and especially not to our old self/man or outer man, when we lose focus of the Spirit. We just stifle and place the Spirit on hold during our 'distraction.' WE stunt our growth. We eventually return and refocus and default to continuing in movement within, and becoming more as the Spirit - as we continue to mature. It is a question of maturity!

The Spirit is still there permanently whether we stray, deviate or strain our relationship or not! We do not 'walk out' at all. We remain in Christ, his spirit of truth. We are still completely immersed in the Spirit whether we acknowledge it or know this or not. We are in the light of God whether we acknowledge or know this or not. There is no such thing as a part(time) movement or walk in Christ. It is a matter of maturity!

We walk grudgingly, rebelling, or with joy and hope in Christ. We still walk briskly or slowly, or even crawl grudgingly or even run fast to be the winner in the race, to be impatient, to become one in Spirit continually.

We are baptized completely in the Spirit and anointed as priests of Christ as we are the Father's temple, and we spread his presence that now resides within us, to others, from our hearts, and thus displayed in our thoughts, words and actions.

You can tell where a person is at by how deeply they have misunderstood the gospel. All theory no reality. All religion no spiritual.
IF believers only walked in the Spirit no Christian would ever sin. ...yet Paul says that the Corinthians were yet carnal and the Galatians foolish. And those believers were still far ahead of where modern believers are.

So you are so far off the map in your concepts that you are in another room altogether.

Jesus said that people would wax worse and worse until there is doubt that He would find faith in the earth. That faith is the eternal kind...not theoretical beliefs. I have met very few Westerners who are humble enough to acknowledge just how unworthy our whole religious system is together with the kind of believers it is producing. But it is only as we humble ourselves that we get actual grace from God to walk in a manner that is pleasing to Him.

I leave you to either understand what I have written or do what is natural and reject everything I have said.
 
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Episkopos

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Grace is received in two steps. There is the initial grace received as a free gift at regeneration. And there is the fullness of grace that must be purchased from the Lord. The cost is everything you have and are. Remember the parable of the kingdom whereby to have the pearl of great price one must purchase the field. Paul did not preach anything different from Jesus...so Jesus is still trustworthy as a teacher. ;)

In the parable of the 10 virgins we see both foolish and wise people. The foolish rely on the free gift of receiving a lamp. But the wise go a step further and PURCHASE oil for their free lamps. The lamp is free but the oil is very costly.

Matt. 25: 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.


9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.



10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.



11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.


12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (they never entered INTO Him)


Many believe that the free gift of the initial grace is enough grace to be a light in the world. But this isn't so. Without the oil, the lamp is practically useless unless for a conversation piece.
Modern believers HATE the idea of giving everything up for the Lord in a bid to have the full measure of grace. They are indoctrinated into thinking that this is salvation "by works." They are taught that God doesn't want them to pay for anything since Jesus did everything for them on the cross. So they remain without oil. Are they not being foolish? Or are they just deceived? A love of the truth would rouse them from their spiritual slumber before it's too late.

Most people have never heard of the cross being preached other than what Jesus did for the sins of the world. Few are exhorted to BE crucified. Few are exhorted to seek the crucified life. I recently did a search for keywords on the internet. I typed in "crucified life" and guess how many people did that search in the last month? A few thousand? no A few hundred? No....ZERO. No one in the world did a search on the crucified life in the last month.

So what is being taught in today's churches...foolishness or wisdom?
 
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APAK

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Epi, thanks for your feedback..

Epi, you have found a verse of scripture in John 10:9 that is associated with your beliefs. You have invented your own novel meaning for it to fit your narrative and doctrine where you actually believe you can leave out of the door of salvation that you first entered and return at will and still be considered saved. It does not work that way in the spiritual sense and based on the grace of God!

In John 10:9, Christ's saved exercise their saving faith and increase or grow it in various degrees to rely more on him in our daily lives. It does not mean that being under the care of Christ, our shepherd, and having entered through the 'right' door means we lose our saving faith completely and go out of the same door of salvation door or gate and out of the care of the shepherd completely and into a completely different gate of the unsaved, the pasture of the world and death. God chose us and Christ will not allow anyone to leave this gate of salvation and none shall perish.

The expression of 'in and out' in John 10:9 of the pasture, is an allusion to the idea we can move about freely within the flock of believers and the fold of the pasture of God, and the Body of Christ, having enter the 'right' door of his spirit and thus he is also in our heart. We are joined to him and he to us. And yes we can stray away from the flock and away from the shepherd at times, and get caught in the fence or become isolated etc. We get distracted and lose sight of our 'new being' we have already become, as we are becoming more like Christ as his spirit, literally. We are being and becoming his perfect image. God our Father, gave us Christ' spirit, of truth and he will not be rewarded and return with 'empty' hands.

This 'in and out' has nothing to do with going in and out of the pasture of our new credited, righteous heart. We always stay in the pasture that is prepared for us. Christ is there and is joined to us. There is only one true door to the pasture of the Father, it is Christ, his spirit, and we have already entered that door and he is now in our heart - he is in us, and we in him.

John 10:7 reads " Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep." There is no other. The gate was there to enter through it, a one way gate, not a swinging gate in two directions. As if Christ will say to you on occasion, "Oh I see you want to leave back out of the gate of your salvation for awhile? See ya, and come back soon you hear....

We do not go out again of this unique gate of life, into and through the gate(s) of death. The shepherd of our heart now guards us as one of his sheep, his Body, and none shall go out of this holy gate and perish.

Blessings to you, APAK
 
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stunnedbygrace

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To hear a man teach the gospel of Christ is so rare. It gives such hope of what He has prepared for us and that no one ever teaches, so it excites and spurs me on and boosts my trust. You cannot teach so well and not have been in His presence at least once, and not have it reach the ones who have seen something is very wrong in the institutional church. They will just immediately see, with horror, that something has been done to hold them back and keep them from more. You have made me weep and rejoice epi.
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 

Nancy

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To hear a man teach the gospel of Christ is so rare. It gives such hope of what He has prepared for us and that no one ever teaches, so it excites and spurs me on and boosts my trust. You cannot teach so well and not have been in His presence at least once, and not have it reach the ones who have seen something is very wrong in the institutional church. They will just immediately see, with horror, that something has been done to hold them back and keep them from more. You have made me weep and rejoice epi.
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Wish I could understand and follow what our brother is saying, most of the time...it is over my head but, I DO attempt to understand...
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Wish I could understand and follow what our brother is saying, most of the time...it is over my head but, I DO attempt to understand...

Ask, sister! Ask!
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
 

Nancy

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Ask, sister! Ask!
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

Always am asking Him for clarity and understanding...every. single. day. Maybe I burned too many brain cells with all the bad living I did B.C. hmm..could be! Probably why I can no longer remember dreams too...dunno! It's okay, when God wants to open something up for my understanding I trust He will. Till then...on the shelf with the... my shelf is overflowing right now :eek:
Thanks!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It’s funny. I just now came back because I was thinking, wait a minute, you know Nancy could be your twin so you know you have to add something to that!

Ask in trust, believing what He said about giving wisdom liberally and without reproach to anyone who asks and then wait patiently.
The waiting patiently part is the testing of your trust, to see if you will waver or will keep trusting He will do what He said there. The testing of your trust leads to endurance of trust, so you won’t be tossed around anymore.
 

Nancy

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It’s funny. I just now came back because I was thinking, wait a minute, you know Nancy could be your twin so you know you have to add something to that!

Ask in trust, believing what He said about giving wisdom liberally and without reproach to anyone who asks and then wait patiently.
The waiting patiently part is the testing of your trust, to see if you will waver or will keep trusting He will do what He said there. The testing of your trust leads to endurance of trust, so you won’t be tossed around anymore.

Funny how we can truly trust Him yet, become impatient and that IS me sister. Trying to overcome this through Him daily.
Okay, this will be prayer for myself every day until He opens my eyes and understanding...I won't get a lobotomy :D

Also funny how someone like myself, high strung, speaks too fast, move too fast (not good) blurt before thinking thoroughly can have no issues with fully trusting and patience for "material" provisions yet, not when it comes to the more important...and VITAL patience needed, and TRUST - for spiritual sight. Feels like my puppy mill dog who walks in circles not knowing which way to turn!

Thanks Jen, I do know you are correct in all you say and, there will be no giving up on my part, thank you.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Okay, this will be prayer for myself every day until He opens my eyes and understanding...I won't get a lobotomy :D

I used to whisper to Him, maybe not daily, but a lot, I’m still waiting for wisdom Lord and I know we have to work on patient trust first and I don’t care how stupid I look to my family I will be glad to become an even bigger fool to them if you can make me stand firm. I know You said: If you won’t stand firm in trust of what I’ve said I can’t establish you and I know You said after I struggle for a while You will strengthen, confirm and establish me. I will keep trusting and hoping in what you’ve said because I know You are truthful and your words are truth.
 

Nancy

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I used to whisper to Him, maybe not daily, but a lot, I’m still waiting for wisdom Lord and I know we have to work on patient trust first and I don’t care how stupid I look to my family I will be glad to become an even bigger fool to them if you can make me stand firm. I know You said: If you won’t stand firm in trust, I can’t establish you and I know You said after I struggle for a while You will strengthen, confirm and establish me. I will keep trusting and hoping in what you’ve said because I know You are truthful and your words are truth.

Speaking to Him is mostly in my mind, silently...unless in fervent prayer with tears! THEN my pleas are out loud.
Boy, patience is hard for some things yet, I know we get no where without it. Just want to learn and live His commands and one day hear "Well done, good and faithful servant".
Sure do not want to hear "I never knew you" :eek: Scariest thought ever!

I could care less what anyone might think of me anymore, just what He thinks of me. So much is vague when it comes to hearing from Him outside the bible...His voice, that is...then it's like, "gee, was that from you Lord?" Shouldn't have to question it, I'd think. So a work in progress just like my house right now...:p
 

Episkopos

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Speaking to Him is mostly in my mind, silently...unless in fervent prayer with tears! THEN my pleas are out loud.
Boy, patience is hard for some things yet, I know we get no where without it. Just want to learn and live His commands and one day hear "Well done, good and faithful servant".
Sure do not want to hear "I never knew you" :eek: Scariest thought ever!

I could care less what anyone might think of me anymore, just what He thinks of me. So much is vague when it comes to hearing from Him outside the bible...His voice, that is...then it's like, "gee, was that from you Lord?" Shouldn't have to question it, I'd think. So a work in progress just like my house right now...:p

Hey Nancy, I am fully convinced that safety with the Lord revolves around being humble and fearing the Lord. It is when we deviate from that path of righteousness that we get in trouble. Men would have us to abandon the righteous path in order to grasp at the promises of the higher walk. Very few will experience the higher walk...and we never will experience that walk as long as we claim to be already walking in it.

It would be like needing a job yet being told by our councilors that we should tell everyone that we already have a job. When a potential employer asks us if we need a job...we are indoctrinated to say "No thanks, I already have one." So the employer moves off and you remain unemployed. That is how I see the modern church set-up. Everyone is being taught how saved and fulfilled they are while they are yet carnal and in need of what only the deeper walk in Christ can provide.

Or else people are told to NOT lay down their lives as that is based on a gospel of works. So they only get the free stuff and never enter into the divine fellowship with God.

I'm not saying that I'm any more worthy than anyone else. I have had to learn...the hard way...that even to be counted with the humblest in the Body is still very good and desirable. So then even as we look up to God we remain small in our own estimation. :)
 

stunnedbygrace

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Speaking to Him is mostly in my mind, silently...unless in fervent prayer with tears! THEN my pleas are out loud.
Boy, patience is hard for some things yet, I know we get no where without it. Just want to learn and live His commands and one day hear "Well done, good and faithful servant".
Sure do not want to hear "I never knew you" :eek: Scariest thought ever!

I could care less what anyone might think of me anymore, just what He thinks of me. So much is vague when it comes to hearing from Him outside the bible...His voice, that is...then it's like, "gee, was that from you Lord?" Shouldn't have to question it, I'd think. So a work in progress just like my house right now...:p

Oh, so many people go so, so cattywampus convinced that God spoke to them and told them to do this or that. I know I did. Just ignore all that. If He wants to speak to you, you will not have to wonder if He did. Trust is the way to everything you want. It’s a race of trust. So everything you read, examine if you really do trust and believe it.

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

You see that in this passage, the testing of your trust is of utmost importance to God. And don’t forget - it says about Jesus, and He could not do many miracles there because of their lack of trust. I’ll say it again, trust is the way to everything you desire. It’s quite simple, really. The trusting what He has said He will do is your part. That’s your race.