The 10 Commandments are FOREVER

[Grailhunter]

I'm somewhat taken with the claim Christian's were involved in the slave trade, perhaps you can cite early church fathers on the subject for better clarification?

Theological discussions on slaves....LOL

I dont find the Roman situation any different than the south in America

Do you mean Christ condoned the slavery in the south? Or would have condoned the slavery in the south?

I do not want to get into a complex discussion because I will lose you real quick.

Would it have been the correct thing for Christ and the Apostles to condemn slavery and place a moratorium on it?
Historians say no. There is an old saying, that Rome was built on the back of slaves. Putting a moratorium on slavery would have caused a domino effect and non-of it would have been good, not even for the slaves....learning that slavery was wrong was something that Christians would learn in the future....Holy Spirit.

And then putting this into perspective in America (since you keep wanting to bring it up) Abraham Lincoln did not do the slaves any favors....It was like the slaves were hanging on to ropes over a cliff and he cut ropes and they fell off the cliff. He goes down in history as the great guy that freed the slaves....put freed to what?

The north conquered the south and took prisoners and mistreated the prisoners and the people in the south. They would have done slaves more good if they would have took the slaves prisoners....clothed them in good clothes and put them in good housing and gave them a good education and put them in the military to learn trades. Pay them regular military wages, and then after ten years give them the choice of staying in the military or not. We would not see a lot of what is happening today if they would have done that.

And at the time there were proposals in congress and Thomas Jefferson was one of them...to do something along those lines but it did not happen. Of course Thomas Jefferson owned around 600 slaves and did think the negro was an inferiors race but saw the moral right thing for white men to do was treat them humanely. There is a lot of information on Thomas Jefferson's attitude towards slavery and some of it is in his notes on "The State of Virginia"

One thing to keep in mind is that at the time of the civil war....slavery occurred around the world. So it is just not the bad Americans. Depending how you look at it, it was the Americans that lead the world to stop slavery....not that it is completely eradicated today.

 

[dad]

What exactly is it that people think we should do on Sat, if they think that the old Sabbath laws still apply? Stay home? Not cross the street? Go meet with Jews? Do be specific.

 

[GEN2REV]

What exactly is it that people think we should do on Sat, if they think that the old Sabbath laws still apply? Stay home? Not cross the street? Go meet with Jews? Do be specific.

If somebody truly wants to observe the Lord's Sabbath from the heart, it's not that difficult. I don't feel you're truly interested, dad, but for those who might be:

It's good to avoid all exchanges of money on the Sabbath for reasons of reverencing God over selfish gain. Also, the exchange of money usually, not always, means somebody is working.

Avoid working for gain (money/income).

Avoid physical activity as much as is possible. (Rest)

Make the day about God - reverence Him and His Word and avoid sinful living as much as possible; movies/videos/music with foul language or suggestive images/material, etc.

In short, sure - stay home and honor God as much as you can and rest.

Some choose to go to church on that day. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I feel more peaceful and protected from all the evils and temptations of the world, personally, if I just stay home and turn off phones and limit my television to Biblical material or neutral material like documentaries, etc. It's not hard to figure out what's acceptable to God.

Pray to God for guidance about it and trust what you receive. The slightest efforts we make in the direction of honoring God's Ways are always supported by Him with guidance and blessings.

No, I don't observe the Sabbath in the Pharisaical strictest sense. Neither did Jesus. Mark 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27

It is a gift from God to those who choose to receive it.

 

[dad]

If somebody truly wants to observe the Lord's Sabbath from the heart, it's not that difficult. I don't feel you're truly interested, dad, but for those who might be:

It's good to avoid all exchanges of money on the Sabbath for reasons of reverencing God over selfish gain. Also, the exchange of money usually, not always, means somebody is working.

Avoid working for gain (money/income).

Avoid physical activity as much as is possible. (Rest)

Make the day about God - reverence Him and His Word and avoid sinful living as much as possible; movies/videos/music with foul language or suggestive images/material, etc.

In short, sure - stay home and honor God as much as you can and rest.

Some choose to go to church on that day. I don't see anything wrong with that, but I feel more peaceful and protected from all the evils and temptations of the world, personally, if I just stay home and turn off phones and limit my television to Biblical material or neutral material like documentaries, etc. It's not hard to figure out what's acceptable to God.

Pray to God for guidance about it and trust what you receive. The slightest efforts we make in the direction of honoring God's Ways are always supported by Him with guidance and blessings.

No, I don't observe the Sabbath in the Pharisaical strictest sense. Neither did Jesus. Mark 2:28 The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27

It is a gift from God to those who choose to receive it.

So no preaching, healing,shopping,business, moving,driving,entertainment, helping neighbours,medical appointments,repairs,phoning loved ones,sinning, or etc etc etc etc etc. (basically, although watching bible shows,going to fellowship if you really think you must and etc might be OK)
Interesting.
Sounds like a holy lockdown! I never knew people actually thought like that. Tks.

I should say that my idea of Sat is that we should love God, like every other day of the year. Wherever we need to be and whatever we are doing.

 

[GodsGrace]

How is absence of work ceremonial?
Working 7 days a week for long periods of time will shorten human life (Thou shalt not kill), but I prefer to view it like this:

God said to do it.

Somehow, that seems like enough for me.

It wouldn't be enough in a particular case....

Those that observe the Sabbath say that there are 10 commandments and not 9.
That makes sense and it would certainly seem like those that do not are not observing one of God's 10 commandments.

UNLESS

God's 10 commandments are also called the Moral Law.
The O.T. also speaks of Ceremonial Law and Civil Law.

IF observing the Sabbath is a CEREMONIAL Law, then there would, indeed, be only 9 Moral Commandments.

The Moral Law is the only Law that will always be in effect...the civil and ceremonial have either been abolished or have changed in form.

So, working 7 days a week and Thou Shalt Not Kill doesn't work.
God said to do it also doesn't really work.
Do you also observe all the other 612 commandments?

 

[GodsGrace]

No it does not. Exactly what "ceremony" would be observed? Did Christ encourage vain "ceremonies"? And He [Christ] taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. (Luke 4:15)

You have 3 choices:
The Moral Law
The Ceremonial Law
The Civil Law

Going to synagogue is not a civil law.
I don't see it as a moral law unless someone can tell why and so far no one has.
So it must be a ceremonial law....

 

[GodsGrace]

What is 'to obey'? Some might say that means coming to their synagogue or church faithfully, giving and etc. Some might say that should include joining the military to serve. Others might say it meant going out to a street corner with a megaphone, or door to door. Others might say it meant staying in a marriage that was rotten. Some might say that means taking a vaccine or recycling a lot to save the planet. Others might think that the ten commandments can be obeyed and that breaking any of those is 'not obeying. Etc etc etc etc etc.

Believe can also mean to drink in. Imbibe. So anyone can tack on whatever they wish there. People should believe in Jesus and do their best to be right with Him. A poster here mentioned that works were evidence that someone was saved. That says nothing. The evidence Jesus talked about was love. His commandment was love. So I would say that love is the best evidence someone knows Him. (as opposed to whatever some might consider works)

I agree in that if we love...then we will naturally follow Jesus' two great commandments.

As far as I could tell, anything we do that is good and pleasant and makes for a better Kingdom of God here on earth can be considered a work or good deed. The N.T. tells us that we are to do good deeds. Some call this works and consider works to be a bad word.

Something taught by Jesus and Paul and the other writers cannot be bad to do.

 

[Enoch111]

You have 3 choices:
The Moral Law
The Ceremonial Law
The Civil Law

No. You have more than three choices. What about spiritual laws? What about criminal laws? What about dietary laws? What about laws regarding warfare? What about laws pertaining to the Levitical priesthood? What about laws pertaining to sacrifices?

 

[dad]

I agree in that if we love...then we will naturally follow Jesus' two great commandments.

As far as I could tell, anything we do that is good and pleasant and makes for a better Kingdom of God here on earth can be considered a work or good deed. The N.T. tells us that we are to do good deeds. Some call this works and consider works to be a bad word.

Something taught by Jesus and Paul and the other writers cannot be bad to do.

Right.

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems to be talking about a person's works.

1 Corinthians 3

Is it about our works or is it about ministry?

Verse 4 talks about how some were saying they were followers of Paul or followers of Apollo.

Verse 8 The one who plants and the one who waters are working together with the same purpose... and both will be rewarded for their hard work.

Verse 9:
9For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building.

Here Paul states that he and Apollos are the WOKERS,
WE are God's field, God's building.

This refers to their ministry...they are the workers, we are the fields that require the work they are doing.

Verses 10, 11 Paul has laid the foundation like an expert builder.
Others will also be building on this foundation, but they must be careful because only Jesus can be the foundation.

Verse 12 Builders will use different materials and on judgement day fire will reveal what type of work each BUILDER has done.
If the work survives that BUILDER will receive a reward...or he will be saved as someone escaping the flames.

So it's speaking about the builders, NOT the field (us) or the building (us).

Verse 16 Anyone who destroys the temple of God (us) will be destroyed by God.
Seems to be speaking of a minister who is not doing the work of God as God would want him to.

James says to not let many of us become teachers because we will incur a stricter judgement.
James 3:1
1Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.


Comment?

 

[GEN2REV]

Something taught by Jesus and Paul and the other writers cannot be bad to do.

Jesus obeyed all the 10 Commandments, including the 4th - the Sabbath Commandment.
John 15:10
Luke 4:16

Paul obeyed all the 10 Commandments and preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath day throughout his ministry.
Acts 21:24
Acts 13:42

Many other writers endorsed the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath.

It's certainly not bad to observe all 10 Commandments just as Jesus and the disciples did.

 

[dad]

1 Corinthians 3

Is it about our works or is it about ministry?

Verse 4 talks about how some were saying they were followers of Paul or followers of Apollo.

Verse 8 The one who plants and the one who waters are working together with the same purpose... and both will be rewarded for their hard work.

Verse 9:
9For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building.

Here Paul states that he and Apollos are the WOKERS,
WE are God's field, God's building.

This refers to their ministry...they are the workers, we are the fields that require the work they are doing.

Verses 10, 11 Paul has laid the foundation like an expert builder.
Others will also be building on this foundation, but they must be careful because only Jesus can be the foundation.

Verse 12 Builders will use different materials and on judgement day fire will reveal what type of work each BUILDER has done.
If the work survives that BUILDER will receive a reward...or he will be saved as someone escaping the flames.

So it's speaking about the builders, NOT the field (us) or the building (us).

Verse 16 Anyone who destroys the temple of God (us) will be destroyed by God.
Seems to be speaking of a minister who is not doing the work of God as God would want him to.

James says to not let many of us become teachers because we will incur a stricter judgement.
James 3:1
1Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.


Comment?

I went back about 5 pages and didn't see what all this was in reference to. What was the basic point you were trying to make?

 

[GodsGrace]

No. You have more than three choices. What about spiritual laws? What about criminal laws? What about dietary laws? What about laws regarding warfare? What about laws pertaining to the Levitical priesthood? What about laws pertaining to sacrifices?

Spiritual laws? What's that?
Anyway, it would fall under MORAL.
Criminal law falls under CIVIL.
Dietary laws fall under CEREMONIAL.
Sacrifices falls under CEREMONIAL.

Do you know about the different types of laws in the O.T.?

 

[GodsGrace]

I went back about 5 pages and didn't see what all this was in reference to. What was the basic point you were trying to make?

Many make the point that they will barely be saved and use 1 Corinthians 3:15 as support.

I don't believe, as many do not, that 1 Corinthians is speaking about US.
If you would care to comment on my post, I'd appreciate it.
It might make you see it in a new light...
or it might not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I went back about 5 pages and didn't see what all this was in reference to. What was the basic point you were trying to make?

Do you know how to use the little, invisible arrow by the name of the poster?
It takes you to the last post when the little "hand" shows up and you click on it.
It's easier than going backwards...

 

[dad]

Many make the point that they will barely be saved and use 1 Corinthians 3:15 as support.

I don't believe, as many do not, that 1 Corinthians is speaking about US.
If you would care to comment on my post, I'd appreciate it.
It might make you see it in a new light...
or it might not.

I see. When I read that verse what is seems to say to me is that even if some people waste their life on useless work that will be shown to have been in vain and it gets burned up in the end, the person themselves will still be saved. His gifts and calling are without repentance. Even though we are faithless, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself. Yet such a person will have real tough times, more than the average believer, they will go through a fiery trial, yet they will be saved. So I think that the price Jesus paid means we are fully, totally and forever saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus obeyed all the 10 Commandments, including the 4th - the Sabbath Commandment.
John 15:10
Luke 4:16

Paul obeyed all the 10 Commandments and preached in the synagogues on the Sabbath day throughout his ministry.
Acts 21:24
Acts 13:42

Many other writers endorsed the 10 Commandments and the Sabbath.

It's certainly not bad to observe all 10 Commandments just as Jesus and the disciples did.

Jesus certainly observed the Sabbath.
Paul might have been preaching on the Sabbath and/or collected monies on that day but I don't believe there's any verse in the N.T. that taught that he observed the Sabbath for ceremonial purposes.

There are verses in the N.T. that speak of the FIRST day of the week, which would be Sunday.
Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight.


John 20:26
Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”


I believe the Apostles and the Early Apostolic Fathers and Church Fathers changed to Sunday to honor and worship God on the day that the tomb was found empty.

I also believe worship is a ceremonial law and we are no longer under ceremonial laws.

We may be wrong...either you or I.
I believe God is a merciful God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see. When I read that verse what is seems to say to me is that even if some people waste their life on useless work that will be shown to have been in vain and it gets burned up in the end, the person themselves will still be saved. His gifts and calling are without repentance. Even though we are faithless, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself. Yet such a person will have real tough times, more than the average believer, they will go through a fiery trial, yet they will be saved. So I think that the price Jesus paid means we are fully, totally and forever saved.

OK.
I don't believe it has anything to do with eternal salvation, but many understand it as you do.
The CC uses this passage as support for purgatory. Which it is not of course.
Thanks for reading and commenting.

 

[dad]

OK.
I don't believe it has anything to do with eternal salvation, but many understand it as you do.
The CC uses this passage as support for purgatory. Which it is not of course.
Thanks for reading and commenting.

OK,tks

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

If saved has nothing to do with salvation, what would it have to do with?

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus certainly observed the Sabbath.
Paul might have been preaching on the Sabbath and/or collected monies on that day but I don't believe there's any verse in the N.T. that taught that he observed the Sabbath for ceremonial purposes.

All this ceremonial, moral, this and that nonsense is just that. It's a smoke screen for the real issue at hand and that is the obeying of the 10 Commandments.

Paul, in no uncertain terms, kept the entire Law. All 10 Commandments on a regular basis. Period.
Acts 21:24

There are verses in the N.T. that speak of the FIRST day of the week, which would be Sunday.
Acts 20:7

Actually, that's the only verse anybody EVER uses to claim that the Bible supports Sunday observance. It doesn't support it in the least.
Breaking bread = common meal.
They did it daily, and from house to house. It wasn't significant to the 1st day of the week at all.
Acts 2:46

There is no mention whatsoever of Jesus' resurrection and the only time period that anything takes place on the 1st day of the week is minimal, at best. Seeing as how days are from sundown to sundown and they met, at some point that day and then preached til after midnight, it puts the majority of the event upon the 2nd day of the week. With no mention of any significance of the 1st day, and very little if any of that day passing during the event, it is a neutral verse that supports the doctrine of Sunday observance not in the least.

I believe the Apostles and the Early Apostolic Fathers and Church Fathers changed to Sunday to honor and worship God on the day that the tomb was found empty.

No. Constantine changed it in the early 4th century. Certainly not any apostles. Also the Catholic Church admits to having part in changing it.