The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

I do understand what you are saying…but I’m not sure you get me.

Just assume, for a moment, that when you read Matt 25, it is happening simply at the end of this world. There is no new ‘dispensation’ or time on earth after the Rapture.
Assume for a moment that the Rapture happens at the END of the tribulation.
How then would Matt 25 make sense? It would be, would it not, in the same ‘period’ as the rest of us. Where faith is absolutely what saves. Where the REASONS for faith being what brings salvation are clear. So that we cannot boast, and so that our works would not be dead.
By putting it in a ‘different time’ you don’t have to reason away boasting and dead works.

But that's just it. I'm not assuming things. I'm just taking it as I find it.

Much love!

 

[Naomi25]

Somehow we are on opposite sides of the world. You've got ideas about what I'm saying that are virtually unrecognizable to me.

Our faith is shown - to ourselves, to others - by our works, and this is what James is talking about. But God is the One Who justifies us to salvation. You can't see the wind, just the moving of the leaves. Paul speaks of the wind, the Spirit Who saves us, James speaks of the blowing of the leaves, that shows us the wind is there.

And I'm not promoting "works with no faith", and the Bible doesn't speak of such things, however, I am saying we should accept Jesus' words as true, and find the understanding of things where we aren't saying He didn't mean what He said. I don't go there, myself, I don't think anyone should.

I take it as true, that's all I'm doing. No systems, no denial of passages, none of that. I just accept what it says, and find the harmony, and I do in fact find it.

Much love!

I….do not wish to claim you said or meant what you did not say or mean.
However, I’m finding some of the things you say to be…contradicting. Which I suppose is slightly funny, given our topic of conversation.

Let me try and explain and show these things that have left me confused on where you stand.

In Post #808 you said - “So in the coming time, there will be a group of gentiles separated from the other, and Jesus will declare them righteous because they did the right things.”

Post #813 - “The difference between us is that I am dispensationalist an you apparently are not. When these "seeming contradictions" appear, such as, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, while, the sheep are declared righteous because of their works.
How can we be saved by faith and them by works?
My answer - it's a different dispensation.”

I don’t think I need to provide any more. You can see, from your quotes here, that it does, indeed, seem that you are promoting a ‘time’ when works will declare a person righteous. You declare it will be ‘a different dispensation’.

So…again. I’m sorry if I’ve been focused on the wrong thing, but perhaps you can see now why I was.

 

[Oseas]

Probably more likely to be 30 min but there is another hour in Revelation, the hour the ten horns reign with the beast. That hour is 42 months so perhaps the half an hour means 21 months? Probably not but worth mentioning.

The problem is that you are equating the Beast, to which is linked the ten horn, with GOD, if you take the differences into account, you will also see the difference in terms of time. By the way, who determined the time of the Beast with ten horns was God. The Word is GOD.

 

[Naomi25]

No. I haven't. I've harmonized them while preserving the meaning of the passages. But I've come to a different answer than you have.

Things changed at the cross. That change is simply described as a new dispensation, a "dispensing", again, oikonomia, the way you run the household.

Much love!

So….
Explain to me again how you read Matt 25 in the light of “after the cross”…?

 

[ewq1938]

The problem is that you are equating the Beast with GOD

No, I did not. No one does that. Talk about a strawman fallacy!

 

[Naomi25]

And nothing in that doctrine renders any passage untrue, or other than what it says. But it leaves us with a mystery that no man seems to be able to understand, a Triune God. We've concluded that all these seeming disparate passages are true, therefore, God must be Triune, and we accept this, because we accept that all the verses which speak of Him are true.

This is all I endeavor to do, allow the verses to speak for themselves, and find those understandings where the verses simply remain true.

Much love!

The problem here is: simply taking Matt 25 “at face value”…means salvation comes through works. As you’ve previously claimed.
Taking other passages that speak about salvation through faith, at face value, means salvation comes (unsurprisingly) through faith.
You COULD use James to harmonise them. You seem to use Dispensationalism instead.
I’m simply don’t understand that as a valid way to interpret text, and believe it leaves you with fundamental questions not answered. Like the reason faith must secure salvation. So we can not boast. So our works are not dead.
If your dispensationalism leads you to read Matt 25 as a ‘works based salvation’, then how do you dismiss these important reasons? Does Dispensationalism answer those too? Does a new dispensation allow for these things to NOT be true?

Not trying to be annoying, but given what you’ve said, I’m struggling to find a way to harmonise what you’ve said. Trying to understand HOW you answer these (to me) essential questions.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think that we need to look at the particular part of the prophecy or vision, and let the Word speak. I find symbols are made known and defined. I find timelines are clarified.

And the fact is, if the Bible isn't the source of both knowing what is a symbol, and what it means, that someone who declares something symbolic, and declares it's meaning, the only authority for that is them self, and there is in fact no Biblical authority for there interpretation.

I think that if there is unity of the knowledge of Jesus to be found in the Bible, it's by those things we can know because the Bible declares it, not because we've found the hidden numerical code, or that we just "know" that this doesn't mean what it says, that it means something different. I'm very reluctant myself to declare something to be taught in the Scriptures based on me "just knowing", and not on an actual Biblical declaration.

Much love!

You contradict yourself, a pre-trib rapture is found no place in scripture, yet you believe and teach this, after being shown many times the truth of Gods words proving otherwise

 

[Oseas]

No, I did not. No one does that. Talk about a strawman fallacy!

I work with the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD. I do not know word more powerful than the Word of GOD, do you? If so, why do you use your own words as above posted?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But again I ask you . . . what if it meant exactly what it says?

What if that were what God is communicating here, what would He need to say so you'd believe it?

Much love!

That's the whole point. Jesus in the parables told the Disciples that he talked unto them in parables so that they hearing would understand and the world hearing would not understand. So, seeing as the whole book of Revelation is encoded by the Old Testament (289 out of 404 verses have Old Testament Verbiage) why would you think Gpd us using actual numbers when te who,e book is a GIANT CODE? Its common sense, God uses the word "Woman" for Israel who repent the flee (Rev. 12), and people can't grasp that He also uses 144,000 in Rev. 7 as a CODE for Israel. Now you want to know why God deemed it necessary to use code words?

Every Disciple save John was a Martyr for preaching the Gospel. If John had stated Rome instead of Babylon how long would those reading his Book of Revelation letters to the 7 Churches have been around? How many of the Churches would have been allowed to stay open? But instead when John talked about the Rome Beast or the ed of the world, he used Babylon (God's design) because the Romans saw that and laughed, this old senile man John is sending them letters about Babylon being defeated when Babylon has been a dead city for 100s of years !! Likewise, if he had of said Israel was going to be protected by God and the whole world would o e dat be ruled from Rome by Jesus, the Romans who had just sacked Jerusalem a few years earlier would have also seen this as treason, all of these Churches and John were subjects of Rome.

So, there is a very good reason the Book of Revelation is ENCODED, so THEY hearing will not understand but WE Hearing will understand it, and be able to decode its meaning via the old testament. There is no WHAT IF....This has been my calling for over 35 years, I understands what the numbers mean and how God uses numbers. Why is it so hard to understand that when every number has a square root that comes from either 7 or 10 and sometimes even 12 that God is showing us 7 (Completion) 10 (Completion) 12 (Fullness) and whenever they are TIMED its an added emphasis !! Its always these SME NUMBERS !!

7000, 1000, 10,000 x 10,000, 144,000 that is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10, why is this not so easy to peg? I don't get why this is complicated brother.

There are 7 Spirits and 7 Eyes = God SEES ALL and God is EVERYWHERE, its simple stuff you are making overtly complicated by not understanding God is using CODE for a reason in the book of Revelation. Do you not get that the 7 Headed Beast is just anther code also? Its a stand in fir Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ Kingdom.

There is no what if brother. God would not allow the enemy to know His intentions because He is all knowing. We can know by decoding the book of Revelation with the old testament.

 

[marks]

The problem here is: simply taking Matt 25 “at face value”…means salvation comes through works. As you’ve previously claimed.

I simply challenge you to accept it for what it says.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

I think...you are nit-picking...the most bizarre set of reasoning...missing a key aspect of Christianity...you who is placing distinctions on what “believers” actually mean....your own little rant ....most of what you say irrelevant....haring off on a tangent...I most certainly don’t have enough time to waste talking to you about assurance of salvation....I….don’t even know what to say.

I think you have said plenty.
Nothing whatsoever I said was a personal attack against you.

And “mindful believing”…oh come on!

Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I said all those who believe will be raptured.

* Jews who BELIEVE in God, but not Jesus is the Christ...
God IS “WITH” them, yet they will not be raptured.
* Gentiles who BELIEVE in God, BELIEVE in Jesus is the Christ...
The Lord God IS “WITH” them, yet they will not be raptured.
IF —- they continue IN BELIEF, to the day of their physical death, they SHALL BE SAVED at the time of their Physical Death.

It seems to be you who is placing distinctions on what “believers” actually mean. Why does any Christian need to prove that they have believed in the “proper” manner? Why is it your place to judge any of those who say, as per scripture.

I accredit Jesus Himself with making a “DISTINCTION”.
“IF” is the caveat...”IF” one does this particular thing, “THEN” that person “SHALL BE SAVED”.
“IF” one DOES NOT THAT PARTICULAR THING, will he be SAVED?
“IF” one CONTINUES LEARNING (as I pointed out...HEARING is the BEGINNING....and continued HEARING....as the Disciples were advantaged to GAIN a LIFETIME of Knowledge in a short amount of time...compared to the average person of this day....one CAN COME TO THE Knowledge “AND” Understanding........)
”IF” one “HEARTFULLY CONFESSES “BELIEF” IN the Lord God...TO the Lord GOD.....”THEY IMMEDIATELY BECOME SAVED” and “The HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WILL COME “IN” them.”

This is NOT MY Distinction. This IS the Lord Gods Distinction.
This is NOT MY Judgement. This is NOT MY Works.
God IS WITH a man who IS with God...VIA;...mans belief in God.,
The Lord IS WITH a man who IS with the Lord..VIA; a mans belief in Jesus.,
* Not a Big Secret...a mans mindful thoughts waver...
* Not a Big Secret...it’s called “changing ones mind”!
* Not a Big Secret...We are NOT privy to what every individual man thinks, believes one day, (in his MIND, in his HEART) and not the next.


Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

WHY the BIG DEAL? The Distinction? The need for one to KNOW? What you call a rant, irrelevant, a tangent, a nit picking, a waste of your time?
* BECAUSE BELIEF WITHOUT HEARTFUL CONFESSION OF BELIEF...IN GOD and JESUS IS THE CHIRST.....NOONE has NO ASSURANCE....he “WILL BE SAVED”.... ~~~
Remember.....the changing of the MIND thingy???

*Remember....the multiply Scriptures of ENDURING? (Mans power to Keep WITH God, WITH Jesus to the day of his PHYSICAL DEATH?)
*Remember....the multiple “WARNING” Scriptures of Evil & Wicked INFLUENCES roaming the Earth?
*Remember....God/ Jesus IS WITH a man, only WHILE the man IS with Him?
*Remember....Any TIME a man can Change his MIND and leave, ignore, stop believing in God, in Jesus?

Oh. Really?
Astound me: what does “converted IN Christ” mean?

* Exactly what Jesus taught....The Highlight of the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT.
A BETTER TESTAMENT. A NEW Covenant. A New PROMISE of ASSURED Salvation, FOR ALL men.....WHO make a TRUE HEARTFUL Confession to the Lord.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

And what, pray tell, DOES one call a person with salvation?

Converted “IN” Christ.
“IS Saved.”
“ARE Saved.”

Acts 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be convert-ED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

1 Cor 1:
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rom 8:
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

the thief confessed his sin and belief in Christ and was immediately accepted........

Uh huh....CONFESSED BELIEF, TO THE Lord.

...people who have been born again and have the Spirit in dwelling in them, still struggle with things.

So?
Not a secret, the world is full of Evil Spirits seeking out the Weak without the Truth “and” Wicked men who sit in Power positions, dictating, threatening, oppressing, forcing.
Not a secret, the world is full of tribulation instigated by Evil Spirits and Wicked men.

So? Men have struggles...hard times...sorrows...losses....
THE POINT IS...so what?
THE PONT IS....THEIR RELATIONSHIP with the Lord God IS established SECURED, regardless of whatever is going on in the world.

Maybe insignificant, ranting, nit-picking news TO YOU.......however...
*God Shall ... Lift up from the Face of the Earth, those WHO ARE, IN Christ.
(THEY SHALL NOT BE SUBJECT TO Gods Great Tribulation...(Same as Saved Noah was NOT Subjected to remain ON the face of the Earth, and BE Subjected to Gods FIRST Great Tribulation UPON the face of the Earth.)
*God Shall ... Send Great Tribulation DOWN from Heaven UPON the Earth AND it’s Inhabitants UPON the face of the Earth, are they WHO ARE NOT, IN Christ.
(THE SAME, AS the significance, AS God Lifted UP Saved Noah, off the face of the Earth....Because...What WAS shall be; Because ...Nothing new under the sun.) Eph 6:12
*ALL ON the EARTH...”your general (UNCONVERTED) believers”...SHALL be SUBJECT to Gods Great Tribulation Sent Down from Heaven.
*Jesus taught, revealed, declared the DIFFERENCE between A Believer and A man Converted IN Christ. Do you think that is nit-picky?
* Gods Great Tribulation, IS MANIFESTED, IN 21 STAGES, from MINOR Tribulation to INCREASING Tribulation as EACH of the 21 Stages are made MANIFEST.
* ALL ALONG the way, During Gods Great Tribulation...ie DURING the 14 Stages...BELIEVERS, can Confess their Belief...(AND Receive Gods POWER “IN” them to Remain Faithful until they physically die.)...Believers can ENDURE (By their own power of Belief until their Body is Killed, by the Earth, by Wicked men)....Believers Can Stop believing (change their MINDS) and jump on board with Wicked men to SAVE (temporarily, for a little while) their physical body From Death.
* THOSE Converted IN Christ ARE Forever WITH the Lord God.
* THOSE NOT CONVERTED, can Leave being WITH the Lord God.
* THE DIFFERENCE IS...the Converted “ARE” “IN AND WITH” the Lord God...
And ARE ASSURED TO BE KEPT FOREVER “WITH” the Lord God BY HIS POWER.
* THOSE “ONLY WITH” the Lord God ARE with Him, by “their power” and can LEAVE Him..any time.
* IF....those “only with” Him (by their own power)...CAN ENDURE, can keep believing UNTIL they physically DIE....at THAT TIME of their physical death, they shall be saved.
* Big difference, between...IS Saved, and Shall be Saved.
* Big difference, between...Will not Suffer Gods Tribulation or Will Suffer (any portion of the 21 Stages of ) Gods Tribulation.

If ^ THAT is insignificant, nit-picky to you...so be it. Others on this open forum MAY BE interested to go read, hear, learn What a GREAT Offering God has made, and HOW they can themselves, ACCEPT His assured Offering, and LIVE IN peace and comfort, Despite the constant tribulation and turmoils of THIS PRESENT World...AND Gods Great Tribulation He has Promised shall come down from Heaven...on a day, a man knows not which day....and who IS and who IS NOT subject to suffer ANY of Gods Great Wrath.

Speaking Gods teaching is NOT Judging, as you mischaracterized.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jews who BELIEVE in God, but not Jesus is the Christ...
God IS “WITH” them, yet they will not be raptured.
* Gentiles who BELIEVE in God, BELIEVE in Jesus is the Christ...
The Lord God IS “WITH” them, yet they will not be raptured.
IF —- they continue IN BELIEF, to the day of their physical death, they SHALL BE SAVED at the time of their Physical Death.

What? Have you not read, Whoever doesn’t know the son, does not know the father. They cannot know God without Christ. And as belief goes, it is then a false belief. Belief is worthless without works that follow that belief. The devils believe, are they going to be saved?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Big difference, between...Will not Suffer Gods Tribulation or Will Suffer (any portion of the 21 Stages of ) Gods Tribulation.

Where is thlipsis ever used as a synonym for wrath (Orge or thumos)? Can you show me one place where we aren’t to ever endure thlipsis?

 

[Taken]

What? Have you not read, Whoever doesn’t know the son, does not know the father. They cannot know God without Christ. And as belief goes, it is then a false belief. Belief is worthless without works that follow that belief. The devils believe, are they going to be saved?

ISRAEL the people, have KNOWN God and His Word for nearly 6,000 years, and Have HEARD the NAME Jesus for 2,000 years, but Few of Israel have KNOWN Jesus.
As the Gentiles began Knowing God, Knowing Jesus is the Word of God, Knowing Jesus is the Christ....AND Accepting that Knowledge as Truth...and Asscepting HIS OFFER of Salvation Before physical Death....
ISRAEL the People were BLINDED, By Gods Works, expressly for the BENEFIT OF the Gentiles to become INCLUDED!

Rom 11:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God is JUST. Israel the people, SHALL be punished for Disbelief, that they began, and God gave them the Disbelief they wanted....AND they SHALL be sent.....Jewish Teachers to teach them Christ Jesus, DURING their Tribulation Punishment.

And as belief goes, it is then a false belief. Belief is worthless without works that follow that belief. The devils believe, are they going to be saved

Works do not Save a man. Works of a Believing man that Glorify God, shall be Rewarded, by God. Those “rewards” are called “Treasures stored up in Heaved”...Those “rewards” shall be Given on Jesus’ Return.

Matt 6:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Men receive Forgiveness as an act of Grace from God.
Men receive Faith from God as a Gift from God.
Men receive a Saved soul as a Blessing from God.
Men receive a Quickened spirit as a Blessing from God.
Men receive a Reward from God for WORKS a man does that Glorifies God.

 

[Taken]

Where is thlipsis ever used as a synonym for wrath (Orge or thumos)? Can you show me one place where we aren’t to ever endure thlipsis?

Enduring in Belief, is a BURDEN to a natural man. That is a natural mans own burden to bear. It is by that mans own power to learn the truth, to not be tricked or fooled by much wiser evil spirits. It is by that mans own power he must decided to stand up Against Wicked Power sitting men, who threaten him, steals his wealth, steals his liberty to speak, to travel, to work, to provide for his family, to eat what he pleases, to raise his own children as he please....on and on....(open your ears and eyes you can HEAR and SEE Government Sitters, Wealthy Power men....threatening, oppressing, people in the world on a DAILY Basis.).....Can you, Will you, jump on board with them, to KEEP your BODY alive, as long as THEY decide it is okay for YOU to live?

Well guess what...?? I do NOT rely on my OWN POWER to keep making sure in the face of Evil Spirit and Wicked power sitting men...that “I must ENDURE by my OWN POWER..... I can NOT FAIL. I can NOT NOT EVER NOT BELIEVE...
Because .... Greater is He that IS IN ME, than he that is in the world.

Gods POWER IN ME, Keeps me FOREVER. Nothing whatsoever can an Evil Spirit do, can a man power do, TO grasp me OUT OF GODS HAND...and cause me to NOT BELIEVE!

And sure, wicked men may, KILL MY BODY....so what? They will NEVER kill my soul, my spirit, my forever belief and relationship WITH the Lord God.

No I can not show you a billeted one liner...Read, Learn, Study...

 

[Timtofly]

Here’s the thing. You keep on making claims like the on above…and never back it up with any scripture.
You also insist (again without scripture) that men USED to be divine. As I’ve given you scripture that outright tell us that heavenly beings ARE called ‘divine’ (elohim = god) you are, in fact, claiming that men used to be ‘angels’.
I would agree with you that men are not, were not, and will not, be ‘angels’….heavenly beings. We were created differently in the beginning, we remain different even in the fall, and will still be different even when we receive our new resurrection bodies.

What you need to do is show, with scripture, that your assumption that men = divine. That ‘Sons of God’ = humans, the ‘the fall’ = man’s loss of ‘image of God’, that ‘sons of God’ cannot = divine being.
I don’t believe you have done any of that yet. Scripturally.

I keep saying there were two separate created beings: angels and humans.

Yet you keep accusing me of calling humans angels.

They are separate creations.

The stars refer to angels. The sons of God refer to humans. Not a difficult point.

Angels are not divine beings. They are created beings for a short list of task. The main task is being a light in the sky. So every night any one can see exactly where and what the angels do.

The sons of God are divine, because they were created in God's image. Those created on the 6th day were exact representatives of God on earth. Adam was a son of God. Adam was not the sole son of God.

I pointed out that in Genesis 6 the sons of God were just humans. You reject that interpretation. You claim angels can procreate against the very words of Jesus that angels cannot procreate. The verses have been posted several times. Genesis 6 is simply saying the uncorrupted humans found the corrupted humans of Adam's flesh and blood desirable. Paul points out sin is more desirable than doing what is right. God even claimed He would no longer strive with the spirits of those humans that fell into Adam's sin nature flesh:

"And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh."

God was talking about those sons of God. They had the spirit part of God in their image. Body, soul, and spirit. The spirit was the divine "God" part. That part was taken away from Adam. That part of those sons of God, could no longer be at odds with the sinning now acceptable to those sons of God. God pointed out that now all flesh, the physical body part, was constantly wicked and no longer in sync with the spirit (the God part) of humans. In Genesis 6, the majority of the sons of God became just as corrupt as Adam's flesh and blood. Not all of them, because obviously in Job, they still held council over the affairs of sinful humans on earth.

The sons of God are generational. They multiply and have offspring as normal generations of Adam's flesh and blood. Angels have never had offspring. The same angels have done the same thing for all of creation. Genesis 2:4

"These are the generations (plural) of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day (singular) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,"

Either we have major contradictions in this verse or logical interpretations available.

I did address those verses when you posted them. Angels are not divine beings, never were. The sons of God are divine beings, and always will be. Humans in Adam's fallen state are not divine, they are physically and spiritually dead. Paul constantly reminds us in all his writings of that fact.

"As by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin."

We are corruptible, not incorruptible. We are not divine, but will one day put on a spirit that restores us to the full image of God. When Adam disobeyed God, he lost an incorruptible physical body. Adam lost the spirit image of God. He was physically and spiritually dead. Sure he lived in a dead corruptible body for over 800 more years. That is not the point. The point is Adam stopped being a son of God, and became a sinner.

I quoted 1 John 3:2. There is 1 John 3:1, Philippians 2:15, Romans 8:19, Romans 8:14, and John 1:12. The whole point about the Word becoming flesh was to redeem us back into being sons of God.

 

[Timtofly]

Does the bible ever refer to men as ‘sons of God’? Sure. But it’s in an ‘adoption’ sense. Let me show you:

Of course we need adoption. We are fallen sinners. We are the prodigal son, generations removed from the original Adam. Of course in this condition, we are not sons, but sinners, needing adoption. But at the Second Coming, no more adoption status. We will then be the full image. A complete and restored son of God.

Okay…these verses tell us several things: that the ‘offspring’ produced between the ‘sons of God’ and ‘daughter of men’ were called Nephilim. This transliterates into ‘Giant’. Why, do you suppose, offspring between human and human would produce ‘giants’?

We’re also told that when ‘God divided the nations’ (reference to the Tower of Babel), he fixed the borders according to the number of the ‘sons of God’. Ever wonder where false gods, like the “Prince of Persia” came from? These beings are watchers, fallen, and are thus judged in Ps 82 for ruling and judging men with wickedness. These are clearly divine beings, called ‘gods’ and sentenced to die ‘like men’…not as men.

Job is interesting as Satan comes with ‘the sons of God’ into God’s presence. Don’t know that that could cover humans. We’re also told that at the foundation of the world, these ‘sons of God’ shouted for joy.

All in all, it’s is difficult to argue that these texts are speaking about men.

The sons of God had a totally different physical structure. A permanent incorruptible physical body. Adam was given a dead corruptible physical body. Why would there not be a "size" difference?

The term "men" applies to what remained after the Flood. Why would those sons of God still in heaven have to bear the title of fallen humanity? At the Second Coming the fallen title of "mankind" will be removed, and being glorified changes us back to the son of God title. Would you want to declare to God, you want to remain human, because that is the normal title?

You are still going outside of God's Word and trying to put that so called "new age" spin about half human half divine or angelic beings.

Was the earth divided up by Noah's 3 sons, or did God allow for more than 3 divisions? It is speculation to even figure out the divisions of the sons of God. Certainly they are not the same as the angel hierarchy. That would be you conflating angels with the sons of God two totally different created beings.

Apples are apples, oranges are oranges. But you are saying ants are fruit because they could be either apples or oranges, we just can't be sure. "Fruit" being the angels, "ants" being the sons of God.

 

[Timtofly]

I have a question. Do you run ANY of your ideas past scripture? Or do you just happen upon them and think they sound good in your head?

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Is judgement just and good? Yes. Should we, like the ‘angels’ glorify God when his justice is done? Of course.
But you are incorrect. The “rejoicing” done in heaven over the scroll, is entirely over the worthiness of the Lamb:

Revelation 5:8-12
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
To receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!”


If you want the reaction of heaven once the scroll is fully open (a seven sealed scroll can not be opened unless all seals have been broken):

Revelation 8:1
When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

Whatever is in the scroll, it is staggering enough to cause absolute silence.


Oh boy.
Might you explain how the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world?
I can understand that the plan for redemption being set then. I can understand God knowing all things and all outcomes. I can understand that is because he creates each outcome.
But please show me where it says Jesus was actually slain before the foundation.

Ironic that I point out every single human on earth was written in the Lamb's book of life. Yet you accuse me of thinking God enjoys removing names. God does not enjoy removing names, but He certainly excluded no one from being redeemed.


Those who claimed God only redeemed and placed a certain amount in the Lamb's book of life are beast who seemingly do not care for the lost. As you leave no reason for them to ever be saved. You point out in essence they all were condemned on purpose. No, you do not put it in those words, that would be mean spirited. You whitewash it coming from the opposite view God had some compassion for some. Predestined is just that, one's destiny is already predetermined. No one can change that.

Calvinist point out people are wrong because human choice limits God's will. The flip side is that Calvinist limit God's ability to redeem all of mankind. I hate to break the bad news, but God did plan for choice. The very first choice was Adam eating a simple fruit from a simple tree. Even before creation, God inacted the very Cross that allowed humans the freedom to choose God, if and when Adam made his choice.

Once again: God predestined that every single soul to ever exist would be redeemed by the Cross. An act that God could call done and complete, because God was the Lamb slain. So all names were written and the book did exist before creation. Actually the only created thing literally before the foundations of the world.

Because God Himself was the Lamb slain. Since God is outside of time, the Cross in time is not just a fixed historical point to God. The Cross is just a fixed point in human perspective.

You are placing the predestination on only those who accept. Not sure if you are full calvanist claiming even the redeemed have no choice in the matter. If no one has a choice why be a light in the world asking people to repent and be baptized? Certainly if no one has a choice, people will just be who they are and no Gospel is even necessary. Why try to convince people against their will and thoughts? Obviously, that does not work out well, as seen on these threads. People reject new thoughts like the plague.

Revelation 13:8 is the verse declaring the Lamb slain from the founding of the world. Is that supposed to be figurative? Is the Lamb's book of life only figurative? Is being redeemed only figurative? At what point is some of this literal, or is it all literal?

 

[Timtofly]

So…once again we see that your biblical evidence is lacking. And the biblical evidence you do provide, is just wrong! It’s doesn’t support you anyway!

So Scripture does not say bright, yet you can say bright, but I cannot say bright. Ok.

 

[Timtofly]

Please. Please explain to me why people don’t take Genesis literally BECAUSE the moon was the light for the night. Explain to me how ‘people’ reject that the moon is, indeed, the light we see at night.

People also see stars at night. In fact navigation has been by a combination of stars mostly, not the two lights called the sun and moon. Sure one can tell time with the moon and sun, a solar and lunar calendar. Seasons and navigation is not solely done with the sun and moon. The ancients used the stars to predict all events on earth. It has carried over into today's astrology. There is a calendar based on the stars besides the solar and lunar calendar.

Satan's deception is relying solely on creation, ie the universe, instead of understanding God. And yes, even the redeemed place too much emphasis on the creation instead of the Creator.

So I pointed out the stars are literally the angels, because that is why the angels were created, and not embarrassed at all. God did not limit this to just two lights:

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"

And yes those lights are only in the fixed space directly above the earth.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

There is literally water above where the stars are. There is not a 14 billion light year universe in existence. Only a firmament with water above that firmament. The stars are in that fixed area, along with the sun and moon. There is literally water like the oceans above the stars. So those who claim to not know anything about heaven should at least know that much. The heaven with all the stars is the heaven with all the angels. The third heaven was when God moved Paradise from earth into heaven.

We have the lower heaven, the atmosphere. We have the firmament, the sun, moon, and angels. Then there is water above that. And now there are the redeemed in Paradise somewhere in the mix as well.