The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Probably more likely to be 30 min but there is another hour in Revelation, the hour the ten horns reign with the beast. That hour is 42 months so perhaps the half an hour means 21 months? Probably not but worth mentioning.

The 30 minutes is thirty minutes.

The 60 minutes is the Battle of Armageddon. Armageddon is not a 42 month long event.

It is from 5pm to 6pm on the final Sunday of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Daniel 9:7 is a week of days, Sunday to Sunday. That week is split in half for 42 months. The battle of Armageddon is the last hour of the last day.

In biblical terms the last hour is 5pm to 6pm on Sunday. Monday starts at 6pm for the 1,000 year reign. Those last 3.5 days are the days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. They are resurrected early Sunday morning. But all of Saturday evening, and all night, and most of the day Sunday, the 10 kingdoms are coming together to rule as one force in opposition to Christ as Prince at Armageddon. The vials were being poured out during those 3.5 days, preparing for that last Sunday. That final hour is the battle itself, and then all of Adam's remaining flesh and blood are destroyed. Sunrise on Monday starts a new day with the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. A new creation per Isaiah 65.

To put the 2 witnesses and the 7 vials in perspective. Revelation 11:13

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Revelation 16:17-19

"And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Then the kings of the earth in chapters 17 and 18 all come together for 1 hour. The same hour as the end of the Babylon system of government. The battle of Armageddon.

This all takes place on Sunday from 6pm (Saturday), and is finalized by 6pm Sunday. Monday starts the Millennium, being 6pm (Sunday).

 

[No Pre-TB]

ISRAEL the people, have KNOWN God and His Word for nearly 6,000 years, and Have HEARD the NAME Jesus for 2,000 years, but Few of Israel have KNOWN Jesus.
As the Gentiles began Knowing God, Knowing Jesus is the Word of God, Knowing Jesus is the Christ....AND Accepting that Knowledge as Truth...and Asscepting HIS OFFER of Salvation Before physical Death....
ISRAEL the People were BLINDED, By Gods Works, expressly for the BENEFIT OF the Gentiles to become INCLUDED!

Rom 11:
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

God is JUST. Israel the people, SHALL be punished for Disbelief, that they began, and God gave them the Disbelief they wanted....AND they SHALL be sent.....Jewish Teachers to teach them Christ Jesus, DURING their Tribulation Punishment.



Works do not Save a man. Works of a Believing man that Glorify God, shall be Rewarded, by God. Those “rewards” are called “Treasures stored up in Heaved”...Those “rewards” shall be Given on Jesus’ Return.

Matt 6:
[20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Rev 22:
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Men receive Forgiveness as an act of Grace from God.
Men receive Faith from God as a Gift from God.
Men receive a Saved soul as a Blessing from God.
Men receive a Quickened spirit as a Blessing from God.
Men receive a Reward from God for WORKS a man does that Glorifies God.

Yet the Jews, who you said have KNOWN God had said this:
39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

And Christ responded, No! He is not your father.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

Ah, so they do the works of their father and that father is not God. They do not know him or they'd do those works.

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies

Knowing of God and knowing God are 2 different things. Atheist know Christ, but they do not have a relationship with Christ. The Jews know of God but where was the relationship when he talks about divorce? When he punishes them for their harlotry, when he destroys them or scatters them? When he gives the inheritance to another? And Romans 11 is talking about the Gentiles "coming in" to Israel. Which we are part of being that same tree with the same holy root. What does that have to do with the Jews having a relationship with God? They dont. They are enemies of the gospel though they are still loved. They are also antichrist as long as they disbelieve.

John 8:19
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

How can they know God then if they dont know Jesus?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Enduring in Belief, is a BURDEN to a natural man. That is a natural mans own burden to bear. It is by that mans own power to learn the truth, to not be tricked or fooled by much wiser evil spirits. It is by that mans own power he must decided to stand up Against Wicked Power sitting men, who threaten him, steals his wealth, steals his liberty to speak, to travel, to work, to provide for his family, to eat what he pleases, to raise his own children as he please....on and on....(open your ears and eyes you can HEAR and SEE Government Sitters, Wealthy Power men....threatening, oppressing, people in the world on a DAILY Basis.).....Can you, Will you, jump on board with them, to KEEP your BODY alive, as long as THEY decide it is okay for YOU to live?

Well guess what...?? I do NOT rely on my OWN POWER to keep making sure in the face of Evil Spirit and Wicked power sitting men...that “I must ENDURE by my OWN POWER..... I can NOT FAIL. I can NOT NOT EVER NOT BELIEVE...
Because .... Greater is He that IS IN ME, than he that is in the world.

Gods POWER IN ME, Keeps me FOREVER. Nothing whatsoever can an Evil Spirit do, can a man power do, TO grasp me OUT OF GODS HAND...and cause me to NOT BELIEVE!

And sure, wicked men may, KILL MY BODY....so what? They will NEVER kill my soul, my spirit, my forever belief and relationship WITH the Lord God.

No I can not show you a billeted one liner...Read, Learn, Study...

So, in that wall of text, you had no answer. Got it! Thlipsis never ever means wrath. And we are always to endure it for Christ sake.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Those not looking for and expecting to be caught up (raptured) will not be caught up they will be left behind to try to live under anti-Christ rule and great tribulation judgements.===All your choice!!

 

[Naomi25]

But that's just it. I'm not assuming things. I'm just taking it as I find it.

Much love!

Well. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Because you may not think you are assuming things, but how you’re reading the texts demands certain things…certain assumptions and implications.
But…i suppose time will be the great revealer.

 

[Naomi25]

I simply challenge you to accept it for what it says.

Much love!

I follow the rule that scripture interprets scripture. Which means I take all the texts that speak about salvation, and see where it points me.
I have no Dispensational beliefs that would allow or excuse me to assign “different rules to different times”.
Thus, I read Matt 25 as supporting what James tells us. Our actions prove the faith we already have.
The texts harmonise for me perfectly and I don’t need to factor in a whole different time frame. I can take the whole of the salvational doctrine based solely on the texts that speak to Salvation…rather than needing to bring my eschatalogical beliefs into it.
So…again. We’re going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Naomi25]

I think you have said plenty.
Nothing whatsoever I said was a personal attack against you.

I didn’t take it as a personal attack. I simply found it utterly baffling that you would take a small post of mine, which had a very simple idea, and then launch into a massive post on terminology and mistaken labelling….

As you’ve done again. I’m sorry, but I have no desire to get into something that seems, to me, to be a waste of time. If you feel the need to track down every linguistic data point to prove the proper usage for the ‘saved individual’…then enjoy your hobby. I’m happy where I am and am clear on my intent.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Those not looking for and expecting to be caught up (raptured) will not be caught up they will be left behind to try to live under anti-Christ rule and great tribulation judgements.===All your choice!!

Paul wasn’t looking to be seized by force (harpazo), He was looking to the resurrection of the dead. The early church taught that fundamental understanding wherever they went. Paul said his rest would be when Christ would return in flaming fire to destroy the wicked. Because he is dead, the only rest he could attain is at the resurrection of the dead.

If anyone is to live while the man of sin exists, let us pray, staying sober and wearing the armor of God. Having our loins girded and testifying of Christs redemptive work in ourselves to a lost generation.

 

[GISMYS_7]

1 Corinthians 15:51==50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we (who are alive)will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[Taken]

How can they know God then if they dont know Jesus?

Not all one race believes the same things.
Obviously some Jews believed in Jesus, some didn’t.
Some Jews today believe in Jesus, some don’t.

You are aware Israel is Gods people?
They were the First, to believe in God.
They were the First, to believe in Gods Word.
They were the First, to believe in Jesus.
They shall also be the Last.
Be Thankful God made room for the Gentiles.

 

[Taken]

So, in that wall of text, you had no answer. Got it! Thlipsis never ever means wrath. And we are always to endure it for Christ sake.

What does endure mean to you?
What is the “it” you are talking about?
You “got” what?

 

[Taken]

I didn’t take it as a personal attack.

Because there were no personal attack toward YOU, as YOU did toward me.

If you feel the need to track down every linguistic data point to prove the proper usage for the ‘saved individual’…

I find scripture sufficient to “track down”, who, when, why, an individual is or is not saved, for ones own benefit. It that is a waste of time to you, so be it.

 

[Taken]

The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Tribulation from Heaven UPON the Earth...IS:
God manifesting His completed Works, He shall call DONE.
...consequences for disbelief.
...atonement for disbelievers coming into belief.
...judging
...separating
...ending sin
...everlasting righteousness


1 Sam
[24] And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.

1 Pet 1:
[13] And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

BY, THROUGH, OF, Christ Jesus were you OFFERED...A WAY...
To lay down your life FOR God, Become Forgiven, Separated from Disbelievers, soul saved, spirit reborn, Gods Spirit IN you?

Did you ACCEPT that Offering?
IF SO, Are you NOT delivered OUT OF ALL TRIBULATION “THAT COMES DOWN FROM GOD IN HEAVEN TO EARTH”?
IF NOT, WHY NOT?

 

[marks]

Not trying to be annoying, but given what you’ve said, I’m struggling to find a way to harmonise what you’ve said. Trying to understand HOW you answer these (to me) essential questions.

I've been thinking a lot about the comparison to concluding we have a Triune God. Nothing comes out and says that. And there are quite a few places that would seem very much to say otherwise. Yet we've come to conclude our God is Triune, even though no one can even really understand what that means or how that is, still, we embrace, we adore our God in this way, because we have no other sound choice.

We have all these passages which make such clear statements, "The Lord our God is One", "before Abraham was, I AM", so many more, and we simply believe them. We believe they are all true as stated, and in believing them, we know God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, and these are One God. It's debated endlessly, but we know it's true. Because we believe the accuracy of the statements recorded in the Bible.

This is like that to me. Endlessly debated, but when I accept them all as valid Scripture to be read as written, this is how I reach my conclusion of pre-trib timing.

I don't have an issue with Jesus gathering Israel to the land, that was prophesied. I don't have an issue with Jesus gathering the gentiles, and pronouncing judgment on them for their works, because that too was prophesied. Jesus is prophesying with greater detail, adding to what had been prophesied in the OT.

I don't have an issue with Jesus pronouncing some righteous and some wicked based on their works. There's a lot more behind that statement, but simply put, that's not the only thing that looks very different in looking at Scriptures of that time and the current time. Imagine, 2 OT type prophets in Jerusalem, calling down plagues, what will they be saying?

This will be the first prophetic revelation to Israel in 2000 years. Can you imagine? We are saved by the preaching of the Gospel, and all Israel will be saved . . . when they see Him they will mourn for Him as for an Only Son. And the redeemer comes to Jacob . . . no, that's not the only difference at all.

Anyway, I'm hoping this gives you greater insight into how I approach this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We can know by decoding the book of Revelation with the old testament.

Obviously we won't reach agreement on this, but I do appreciate the pleasant conversation!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I follow the rule that scripture interprets scripture. Which means I take all the texts that speak about salvation, and see where it points me.

And this is what I do.

I have no Dispensational beliefs that would allow or excuse me to assign “different rules to different times”.

That doesn't really reflect anything, I just do the Scripture interprets Scripture, but I arrive at different conclusions. But it's just like, they did Temple worship then, and we worship in spirit and truth now. Just like that.

So…again. We’re going to have to agree to disagree.

And quite agreeably so!



Much love!

 

[marks]

I….do not wish to claim you said or meant what you did not say or mean.
However, I’m finding some of the things you say to be…contradicting. Which I suppose is slightly funny, given our topic of conversation.

Let me try and explain and show these things that have left me confused on where you stand.

In Post #808 you said - “So in the coming time, there will be a group of gentiles separated from the other, and Jesus will declare them righteous because they did the right things.”

Post #813 - “The difference between us is that I am dispensationalist an you apparently are not. When these "seeming contradictions" appear, such as, we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, while, the sheep are declared righteous because of their works.
How can we be saved by faith and them by works?
My answer - it's a different dispensation.”

I don’t think I need to provide any more. You can see, from your quotes here, that it does, indeed, seem that you are promoting a ‘time’ when works will declare a person righteous. You declare it will be ‘a different dispensation’.

So…again. I’m sorry if I’ve been focused on the wrong thing, but perhaps you can see now why I was.

Yes, as I read my comments, I see where I miswrote. I'm not a dispensationalist, but my views are dispensational, as opposed to non-dispensational.

I accept the validity of both statements, that we are saved by faith and not works, and those are declared by Jesus to be righteous, and He cites their works as the reason. Because I was hungery, and you gave me food.

If I accept both of those statements as true, they add to the others I find in the Bible. "If you do these things, you shall live." To those under the Law. "Blessed are they who do not see, and yet believe!" That's us. "They shall see Him, and mourn for Him", that's the Jews when Jesus returns. "Come ye, blessed of My Father, inherit the kindom prepared for you", that will be the gentile survivors. "He shall rule them with a rod of iron", of course in the kingdom, and, "He shall wipe away all tears", the ages to come.

Tears are not yet wiped away now, and we don't live by the Mosaic Law. We believe unseeing, and they will believe when they see Him.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God, Paul wrote to the Romans.

This is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he will be saved out of it, Jeremiah prophesied to the nation. Moses told them, after you are scattered to the nations, in tribulation, in the latter days, you will find Him when you seek Him with your whole heart.

This is my dispensationalism.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The problem here is: simply taking Matt 25 “at face value”…means salvation comes through works. As you’ve previously claimed.

One thing it illustrates is that we aren't given the entire story behind all this, just like regarding the Trinity. God doesn't explain it all to us, just says enough that we can know it's true.

Salvation comes when we believe in God. That's the example of Abraham. He believed in God, and God accounted it to him for righteousness. As Paul quotes this, he simply says, "he believed God".

During the millennium, according to Isaiah's prophecy,

Isaiah 65:20 KJV
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

There will be sinners, there will be the saved, yet Jesus will rule the earth with a rod of iron from Jerusalem, where is faith in that day?

Romans 8:24 KJV
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Do we say that those in that day will be saved in the very same way as we are? We trust in the One Who is gone into heaven making intercession for us.

Adam transgressed, but until the Law came, no one else was imputed with sin because no one had broken any laws. "Sin is not imputed when there is no Law." By what means were men saved in that day? Or are they all granted pardon because there was no law, only, "don't eat from THAT tree", which they were not even able to do? That's not really explained either. Maybe that when Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison, maybe these were some of those?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul wasn’t looking to be seized by force (harpazo), He was looking to the resurrection of the dead. The early church taught that fundamental understanding wherever they went. Paul said his rest would be when Christ would return in flaming fire to destroy the wicked. Because he is dead, the only rest he could attain is at the resurrection of the dead.

Actually . . .

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul counted himself to be among those alive when Jesus catches us up.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 KJV
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

This passage also reveals Paul's desire to be transformed will yet living, "mortality swallowed up of life", that is, while still mortal, not yet dead.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 KJV
7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

That they're trouble would cease when Jesus is revealed.

Much love!

 

[GISMYS_7]

When a believer dies there spirit goes to be with Jesus and on resurrection day their body is raised and changed into a new immortal body!