The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[post]

I ALSO find...the AWESOME Offering of God, to MAKE an EARTHLY MORTAL man....a SPIRITUAL forever LIVING MAN.....”IF” the man is WILLING to FREELY lay down his “MORTAL LIFE”.

but when God first created Adam -- did He make Adam in order to utterly annihilate Adam, or in order that Adam have eternal life with his Creator?

set aside the issue of sin for a moment, that poisons us:
are we designed as eternal beings or designed as disposable, temporary trash?

 

[Taken]

but when God first created Adam -- did He make Adam in order to utterly annihilate Adam, or in order that Adam have eternal life with his Creator?

Where are you getting...”utterly annihilate” from?

set aside the issue of sin for a moment, that poisons us:
are we designed as eternal beings or designed as disposable, temporary trash?

Speaking from deep left field, is too far out.

 

[marks]

Where are you getting...”utterly annihilate” from?



Speaking from deep left field, is too far out.

Post's question is sound, as we consider this topic. What was God's original design for man? What does it mean being made in the image of God? And what does that speak towards our properties as a "made thing"? Were we in fact designed to last forever?

Much love!

 

[post]

Where are you getting...”utterly annihilate” from?



Speaking from deep left field, is too far out.

from the narrative of people like @Aunty Jane and @Phoneman777 and @quietthinker and all the nutso JW's creeping around this place.


theorems are proven or disproven at their extrema.

 

[quietthinker]

Only what I've saying all along.

You need to have the understanding of what death is that matches how the Bible speaks of it. Death is not cessation of existance, the light ceases because the electricity ceases, are you really suggesting Jesus ceased to exist when He died on the Cross? Reconstituted from nothingness to come out of the tomb?

Jesus is the firstborn from among the dead (Col 1:18). Many people, I think, read that as, "Jesus was the first to come alive from being dead", but that's not the real sense of the passage. "The dead", there, as in many places similar to this, the dead are "the dead ones",

Romans 6:13 KJV
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The same thing in this passage, "As those that are alive from among the dead ones".

Life and death refer to our connection to and separation from God, and they refer to our connection to and separation from our body, but they do not refer to whether or not we exist.

Man became, and what he became was a living soul. He had connection to His body, and connection to God, and so he was alive physically, and alive spiritually. He lost connection to God on the day he ate from the forbidden tree, dying, he died. On that Very Day. Just as God said. "Hath God said you would died? Hm?" Yes, He did. And His Word is true.

Much love!

hmmmm, marks, I think your proposal does not hold water.

 

[quietthinker]

from the narrative of people like @Aunty Jane and @Phoneman777 and @quietthinker and all the nutso JW's creeping around this place.


theorems are proven or disproven at their extrema.

so there you have it, post.....folk disagree with you and you call them nutso's creeping...hmmm

 

[Aunty Jane]

WHEN, the Heart stops Beating, the Blood stops flowing, the LIFE (BLOOD) of the BODY stops ‘maintaining’ the LIFE OF the Body. The Body begins DYING.
AS the Body IS DYING....
The LIVING SOUL....DEPARTS the dying Body.

Can you provide a single scripture that says that mankind has a separate spiritual part of them that departs from the body at death? Where will I find the soul described as a disembodied, conscious, spiritual entity?

If this belief has no scriptural backing then where does it come from? And why does even false religion promote it? Why did God’s law forbid his people from spiritistic practices? The simple truth is that the only spirits in existence and that humans were to avoid were the demons. There never were ‘spirits of the dead’. The various practices of spiritism included all the avenues that the demons had to mislead mankind in their deception. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

The created formed body of dust, called a man, that DIES, is called a physically DEAD man. The DEAD man is VOID of ALL LIFE....no Active flowing blood, no Living soul in it. That Body of that man, knows nothing, feels nothing. It begins decaying, stinking, decaying. It is buried or burned, prepared to Return to the Dust of the Earth from whence it came.

And again, show us any scripture where the soul is not inextricably tied to that body to maintain its existence....

Original language words do not indicate that death is anything other than what God told Adam.....
Genesis 3:19...
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
God did not tell Adam that his body would die, but that his spirit would live on.
This is cessation of life...NOT a continuation of it in some other form.

Did God warn Adam of the possibility of hell? Did he ever promise Adam heaven? If such was the case, was God not remiss in failing to inform Adam of the full impact of his decision? Can we then blame God for Adam’s ignorance?

But if death is just the cessation of life and the Israelites were told of the resurrection, what did these Israelites believe about death?
When Jesus went to resurrect his friend Lazarus, his sister exclaimed, “Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died”.....
“Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life.” (John 11)

They were never taught about an invisible conscious part of humankind that would survive death. “The resurrection” that the ancient Jews expected from their scriptures, was a restoration of life here on this earth under Messiah’s rulership. This is what Lazarus’ sister spoke about. She had no belief in his continued existence somewhere else.

The teaching of the resurrection was lost in apostasy and the devil convinced people of his first lie....that they “surely will not die”.....it’s a satanic deception. The soul (person) dies, but their life can be restored by God when his son brings back the dead...all called from the same place....yet future.
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29)

Those who died in the past, never having heard or known about the God of Israel, and the sin atoning sacrifice of his son, will be given opportunity to learn about him in an atmosphere of peace and love in the “new earth” (new earthly society) ruled by the “new heavens”. (God’s kingdom) (2 Peter 3:13) Only those chosen by God will go to heaven to assist Christ in his Kingdom rulership. (Revelation 20:6) As ‘kings’ they will need subjects, and as ‘priests’ they will need sinner for whom to provide their duties as such.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us where the blessings of kingdom rule will take place so that God’s first purpose for mankind and this earth can finally be realised. It is what he has been working towards all this time. (Isaiah 55:11)

And...the understanding is...WHAT is forever ALIVE that can possibly suffer forever torment.....hint...(spirits) separated from God.

The only spirits separated from God are the demons. Since there is no “spirit” of man that survives death, God has no purpose in eternal punishment for the sake of it. Punishment in Israel under God’s law was intended to lead to repentance and forgiveness. Those who committed capital crimes forfeited their lives, but since Jesus’ blood redeems both the righteous and the unrighteous, only the incorrigibly wicked will remain in “Sheol or hades” (the grave) forever. This is then "gehenna".....Eternal death is the only punishment required unless you assume that God will take some kind of twisted delight in torturing them in flames forever...?

If that is the god you worship.....thankfully that is not the God I serve.

 

[marks]

hmmmm, marks, I think your proposal does not hold water.

That is fine. We have our different ideas, do we not?

I seem to always find this, though, that the disagreements seem to always come to some verse somewhere that I'm believing it means what it says, and someone else does not. So what am I to do?

Much love!

 

[marks]

so there you have it, post.....folk disagree with you and you call them nutso's creeping...hmmm

Actually, that was a separate nominative . . . perhaps a more careful reading?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Post's question is sound, as we consider this topic. What was God's original design for man? What does it mean being made in the image of God? And what does that speak towards our properties as a "made thing"? Were we in fact designed to last forever?

Yes, we were designed to live forever, right here on earth. As long as the humans obeyed God, there was no “natural” cause of death. Sin was the only cause of death.....so if the humans had simply obeyed, satan’s attempt to rule the world would have failed and the original humans would still be here enjoying the paradise with all their progeny.

God’s original purpose for mankind is completely lost in the assumption of life after death for a disembodied soul existing in some other place....nowhere does the Bible teach this. It does not fit in with what God put us here for. We have a vital purpose here that is completely lost in all the false doctrines concocted by the churches. Humans were never going to heaven because their role was to remain on earth, endowed with God’s qualities so as to become the best caretakers and custodians of all that God had made. The earth was meant to be our eternal home. We lost it in satan’s rebellion.

Christ came to get it back for us....

Please see my last response to @Taken.....there is one truth, not many spread across a multitude of people all claiming to be right.....can you not see the master of deception in this confusion? Any wonder Jesus framed the question in Matthew 24:45.....who is “he”?

 

[Taken]

Post's question is sound, as we consider this topic. What was God's original design for man? What does it mean being made in the image of God? And what does that speak towards our properties as a "made thing"? Were we in fact designed to last forever?

Much love!

God is good. Pss 100:5
Man was created and then made, “very good”. (Gen 2:3)

Gen 1:
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

* Freewill... a Blessing and a Curse....is broadly mankind’s downfall, from the beginning to this day.

God knew good and evil, and? Always does good.
Men instinctively know good and evil, and?
Some Are hardworking, generous, helpful...
Some Are greedy, lazy, conniving, coveting...
A constant battle.

Ya think things are crazy now....imagine (granted a much smaller population), but imagine...ONLY eight people on the entire earth worthy to be Saved, as in Noah’s day. So disgusting to God, God so angry, He was regretful for creating and making ManKIND. I think had it not been for Noah and his family....being good....God may have well scrapped the whole idea of ManKIND. ??

Personally, I did not care for “post’s” characterization and choice of words regarding manKIND, thus made my comment to not address his remark.

To you. I believe Gods original design for man, was to live forever and choose to Love Him and be with Him forever. Yet, the freewill thingy....just wasn’t a choice many men have chosen.

 

[quietthinker]

That is fine. We have our different ideas, do we not?

I seem to always find this, though, that the disagreements seem to always come to some verse somewhere that I'm believing it means what it says, and someone else does not. So what am I to do?

Much love!

Repent and believe me without question!

 

[marks]

God is good. Pss 100:5
Man was created and then made, “very good”. (Gen 2:3)

Gen 1:
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

* Freewill... a Blessing and a Curse....is broadly mankind’s downfall, from the beginning to this day.

God knew good and evil, and? Always does good.
Men instinctively know good and evil, and?
Some Are hardworking, generous, helpful...
Some Are greedy, lazy, conniving, coveting...
A constant battle.

Ya think things are crazy now....imagine (granted a much smaller population), but imagine...ONLY eight people on the entire earth worthy to be Saved, as in Noah’s day. So disgusting to God, God so angry, He was regretful for creating and making ManKIND. I think had it not been for Noah and his family....being good....God may have well scrapped the whole idea of ManKIND. ??

Personally, I did not care for “post’s” characterization and choice of words regarding manKIND, thus made my comment to not address his remark.

To you. I believe Gods original design for man, was to live forever and choose to Love Him and be with Him forever. Yet, the freewill thingy....just wasn’t a choice many men have chosen.

Yes, I too see @post 's words finely pointed!

I remember even when God told Moses He'd destroy them all and start over with Moses. Moses' answer was to remind God what the onlookers would say, God didn't do as He said, He let them all die in the desert!

Even now He maintains a remnent, remembering His Word.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Repent and believe me without question!

I like you and all, but I find the Bible more convincing.

 

[post]

so there you have it, post.....folk disagree with you and you call them nutso's creeping...hmmm

erm, i called JW's nutsos.

afaik you aren't a JW, so even tho you and i don't share the same understanding on this topic, i don't consider you a non-Christian cultist ((which is my informed theological opinion of JW's))

 

[post]

To you. I believe Gods original design for man, was to live forever and choose to Love Him and be with Him forever. Yet, the freewill thingy....just wasn’t a choice many men have chosen.

see, this being the case -- that God's intention and will for man is that he be an eternal being -- it is hard to make the argument that He utterly annihilates any of them. that would be God defeated.
my God is invincible.

((and no -- am not arguing univeralism. am arguing eternal existence of personhood, not universal eternal life or eternal death. life and death pivot on faith in Christ; existence pivots on God's intent in creation & ability/faithfulness to carry out His intent. we exist because He wills us to. because He conceives of us. because, in a quantum-mechanical sense, He observes us. He will do all His will, and nothing escapes His sight. what may be known of Him is made clear by what is made, and the universe He made happens to be a QM universe in which existence appears to be effected by conscious observation. that is no accident; that is His purpose.))


because what you have said here is equal to what you said earlier about the angels. man is not a merely physical being; he is bipartite physical/non-physical, having a spiritual component.
to the angels, who are not even partially made from dust, this must be amazing. even the creation of dust to them, is a new thing, an amazing thing, that they give glory to God over.

imagine you are an angel, before the creation of the world. satan falls; he deceives at least 1/3 of your brethren, taking fully 1/3 into his wickedness with him. he is cast out, and what is the response of the Ancient of Days? He creates time; He creates dust, He creates living souls comprised of spirits inhabiting bodies of dust. what is He doing? thousands of years later, His answer to The Lie is revealed, He Himself, The Son, takes on this dust-flesh and redeems this strange creature "man" who fell into sin, by a thing called faith. this is the solution to sin, which the devil has accused is unsolvable.

is this a paradigm in which God annihilates anyone?
is annihilation anything less than God tacitly admitting He made a mistake?

He does not annihilate Satan. He spends millenia, creating an entire universe, giving it freedom to hang itself, then resurrects it, accounting faith as righteousness, destroying the perceived power of death by offering Himself to death, conquering it by indestructible life. all this is proving to the angelic host a truth, condemning The Evil, The Lie, and justifying Himself, The Justifier of the just.
if He does not annihilate Satan, i have a very hard time thinking He does so to the living souls of animals like us. certainly not the other living souls apart from man, who have no sin, but were subject to futility for our sake, waiting eagerly for the revealing of the children of God.

to me this whole question pivots on human beings believing they have a better idea of what 'justice is' than the Living God. so they sentimentally judge that God 'must do so and so else God is evil' -- instead of humbly watching what God does, believing what He says, and glorying in His works with amazement. they are no different than the atheist who says God must be evil because He allows wickedness to exist -- in fact, we see the worst of them preaching exactly the same worldview of atheists: physical monism with universal cessation of existence at the demise of the flesh. and doing so under the false guise of 'christianity!'

 

[quietthinker]

erm, i called JW's nutsos.

afaik you aren't a JW, so even tho you and i don't share the same understanding on this topic, i don't consider you a non-Christian cultist ((which is my informed theological opinion of JW's))

The gospel goes to all, even those whose ideas are skewed and messed up....and who can claim exemption from that?
It is not warranted to belittle or out others because they have views which conflict with our own. God will sort that out in his time.

 

[post]

The gospel goes to all, even those whose ideas are skewed and messed up....and who can claim exemption from that?
It is not warranted to belittle or out others because they have views which conflict with our own. God will sort that out in his time.

bro i read proverbs every day. for years. decades.
that doesn't mean i am wise, but it means i have no excuse to fail to recognize foolishness for what it is.
all over it is instruction on discerning fools from wise men.
how can it be that no one is allowed to discern foolishness from wisdom?

watchtowerism is anti-christ foolishness. i will prove it any day of the week, if i must. for you, as i intimated, i don't think i have to. we only disagree ((afaik)) about the inherent eternal nature of our existence - which is a separate question from eternal life vs. eternal death.

but let me give you a second witness to the fact that we are justified to call false doctrine, 'false doctrine' -- Titus 1:9. the elder must be able to convict and expound the contradiction of sound doctrine.
clearly, calling a spade a spade, is called for.

 

[quietthinker]

bro i read proverbs every day. for years. decades.
that doesn't mean i am wise, but it means i have no excuse to fail to recognize foolishness for what it is.
all over it is instruction on discerning fools from wise men.
how can it be that no one is allowed to discern foolishness from wisdom?

watchtowerism is anti-christ foolishness. i will prove it any day of the week, if i must. for you, as i intimated, i don't think i have to. we only disagree ((afaik)) about the inherent eternal nature of our existence - which is a separate question from eternal life vs. eternal death.

but let me give you a second witness to the fact that we are justified to call false doctrine, 'false doctrine' -- Titus 1:9. the elder must be able to convict and expound the contradiction of sound doctrine.
clearly, calling a spade a spade, is called for.

There is a difference between recognising false doctrine and diminishing those who hold it.
I think of those men murdering Jesus and how he responded. It puts me to shame.

 

[post]

Yes, I too see @post 's words finely pointed!

hehehe ♥