The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[marks]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Abigail]

Genesis 3:19
“In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

I don't believe all that.
The spirit shall return to God who gave it | Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Job 1:21
“And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

Psalms 36:9
“For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Genesis 3:19
“In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

I don't believe all that.
The spirit shall return to God who gave it | Afterlife | Conditional Immortality
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Job 1:21
“And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.”

Psalms 36:9
“For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.”

Where do you suppose all the dead went back then before Christ died and rose ?
No one ascended into heaven except he who came down from heaven that is the Son of Man, Christ who is from heaven
They descended into the places under the earth. GOD also is in all the places that exist, including hell.
None of them who died went to heaven, they were all of the earth, so the dust of the earth received them and their spirit.

Hell-Shoell-Tartarus- the places of the dead, also included a place called paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

SO what you are saying is you do not believe what God said in Genesis 3:19!

People showing fruit like that is not good fruit. We especially do not get to question God like the devil does, has God said?

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

 

[marks]

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 21:23-25 KJV
23) And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24) And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25) And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:5 KJV
5) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Does this create a conflict?

Do "day and night" cease, and therefore the suffering of the tormented also cease? And so does God's declaration that there will be no night in the New Jerusalem cancel God's declaration that those in fiery torment will have no rest day or night as the smoke of their torment ascends forever?

Because there is no night in the New Jerusalem, does this mean their torment ceases?

Or is the meaning that God's light, and the Lamb's light forever fill the New Jerusalem such that it makes no difference whether the sun is shining or not, the City is always filled with light?

The City had no need of the sun, but does that mean the sun does not shine on the earth?

Much love!

 

[Abigail]

Where do you suppose all the dead went back then before Christ died and rose ?
No one ascended into heaven except he who came down from heaven that is the Son of Man, Christ who is from heaven
They descended into the places under the earth. GOD also is in all the places that exist, including hell.
None of them who died went to heaven, they were all of the earth, so the dust of the earth received them and their spirit.

Hell-Shoell-Tartarus- the places of the dead, also included a place called paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

SO what you are saying is you do not believe what God said in Genesis 3:19!

You're saying that.

People showing fruit like that is not good fruit. We especially do not get to question God like the devil does, has God said?

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

The original word in Psalm 139:8 is Sheol. And what you're saying with that error of "Hell" for that verse is that God resides in Hell and Heaven.

Sheol isn't Hell, fire and brimstone, bottomless pit.

 

[farouk]

You're saying that.



The original word in Psalm 139:8 is Sheol. And what you're saying with that error of "Hell" for that verse is that God resides in Hell and Heaven.

Sheol isn't Hell, fire and brimstone, bottomless pit.

@Abigail Such a searching Psalm, 139....

 

[farouk]

PS: I'm not an annihilationist...

 

[Curtis]

Where do you suppose all the dead went back then before Christ died and rose ?
No one ascended into heaven except he who came down from heaven that is the Son of Man, Christ who is from heaven
They descended into the places under the earth. GOD also is in all the places that exist, including hell.
None of them who died went to heaven, they were all of the earth, so the dust of the earth received them and their spirit.

Hell-Shoell-Tartarus- the places of the dead, also included a place called paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

SO what you are saying is you do not believe what God said in Genesis 3:19!

People showing fruit like that is not good fruit. We especially do not get to question God like the devil does, has God said?

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

And there are beings under the earth, as confirmation, who speak, etc:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[n2thelight]

Where do you suppose all the dead went back then before Christ died and rose ?
No one ascended into heaven except he who came down from heaven that is the Son of Man, Christ who is from heaven
They descended into the places under the earth. GOD also is in all the places that exist, including hell.
None of them who died went to heaven, they were all of the earth, so the dust of the earth received them and their spirit.

The spirit returns to God who gave it ,unless you believe in soul sleep the earth did not receive their spirit

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, were the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

 

[Windmillcharge]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

What point or argument are you trying to make?

That God is unjust?
That sinners are not bad people?

Is God really ' Holy ' and does it matter?


The passage makes one thing very clear, that those who have rejected God get punished.

 

[quietthinker]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

Having a window into Hebrew idiom in helpful. Without it one arrives at conclusions more in line with pagan views than one would believe let alone inconsistencies with a self sacrificing God.

 

[marks]

What point or argument are you trying to make?

That we should accept the words of Scripture, and not fight against them.

Much love!

 

[Abigail]

@Abigail Such a searching Psalm, 139....

What?

 

[Aunty Jane]

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

Where there is smoke there "is" or "was" fire. Smoke continues to ascend for a long time after a conflagration such as we had here in Australia last Summer with extensive and frighteningly ferocious bushfires. The smoke was a stark reminder of what had happened as if the beast that destroyed everything was still lurking, wanting to reignite its fury.

But what created the "smoke" in these verses in Revelation? Wasn't it Jehovah's fiery anger? In the first century, wasn't God watching when the Pharisees were all heated up and tormented by Jesus' teachings? Didn't they plot to kill him from the beginning? Where did Jesus consign them? (Matthew 23:33) What is "gehenna"?
Jesus said it is the place where God "destroys" both "body and soul" (Matthew 10:28)....so what survives that destruction? Nothing. God gave life and he can take it away. There is no immortal part of man that lives on after death. A return to life is possible only by resurrection.....that is a restoration of life....NOT a continuation of it.

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because their destruction will be eternal, and will never be forgotten. In order to suffer torment, a person has to be alive and conscious. Jews had no belief in an immortal soul/spirit so they would not have any scriptural reference to a hell of fiery torment. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) That idea came from the pagan Greeks.
For Jews, the only option God ever gave them was "life or death".....nothing else. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20)

So the "torment" has to take place whilst they are still alive.

The Devil’s being “tormented” in the lake of fire forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death....along with all those "goats" whom Jesus consigns to the same end. (Matthew 25:41)

This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek baʹsa·nos) reminds us of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’ These jailers were known as 'tormentors' of their prisoners.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So what is "worship of the beast and its image"? What is the "mark" that will be demanded if we are to remain part of accepted society...and to retain the ability to buy and sell? How does a person refuse the mark? How hard will life be for them if they don't?

And what is the fate of those who take the mark as well as those who administer it? The scriptures tell us, but we need to be on the right side of this issue. The destruction will be of monumental proportions because the day of Jehovah's anger has been brewing for thousands of years, compounding and growing with every breach of his laws and every demonstration of man's inhumanity to man....and the degradation of his beautiful earth.

This is where the "smoke" ascends forever and ever.....as a reminder of what led us here, and for the survivors, they had to have a clear understanding of what it means to refuse the mark and suffer the consequences, relying on God to deliver them like he has always done in the past. This is what faith is all about.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The spirit returns to God who gave it ,unless you believe in soul sleep the earth did not receive their spirit

Delving into the meaning of original language words we find that the word "spirit" means "breath". When God formed Adam from the elements of the earth, he then "breathed into his nostrils the breath [spirit] of life" and the man "became a living soul".
Humans do not "have a soul" but all living breathing creatures are called "souls" in the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

There is nothing to literally "return to God" except the ability that God has for those whom he will resurrect, to give them breath again. He will recreate a body for them and return them to life, so that they can become 'living souls' like they were before, reunited with lost loved ones who will also experience a resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

These spirits that Christ preached to in prison, were the spirits of the saints that died prior to His death on the cross.

No, I'm sorry but that scripture has nothing to do with the spirits of humans in prison...how absurd! The Bible speaks of no such place because there are no "spirits" of humans....the only spirits spoken about in the Bible are either angels or demons.

1 Peter 3:18-20, if you had continued the quote would have shown you who those "spirits" were....
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water."

So these 'spirits' were the disobedient angels who had materialized and who took human women and bore children to them in Noah's day. The 'Nephilim' were giants who had a violent and licentious disposition like their fathers. They had no right to exist.
These were the reason why God had to take such drastic action to eliminate these freakish offspring of the angels, and force their fathers back to the spirit realm where he placed them under restraint. (Tartarus) It was to these wicked spirits that Jesus preached his judgment message.

 

[dev553344]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

So you're saying there is fire in the lake of fire?

 

[farouk]

What?

Searching...it makes us think....God looks into our hearts...

 

[atpollard]

You're saying that.



The original word in Psalm 139:8 is Sheol. And what you're saying with that error of "Hell" for that verse is that God resides in Hell and Heaven.

Sheol isn't Hell, fire and brimstone, bottomless pit.

Sheol is “the grave” … not the simple hole in the ground that we place a body in, the holding place of the dead. Either Paradise (Abraham’s Bosom) or Gehenna (a place of fiery torment and God’s curse); those are the two parts of Sheol. This is the OT afterlife. We see it illustrated CLERLY by Jesus in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After the Crucifixion and resurrection, things change for the “saints” since those in Abraham’s Bosom were led out of captivity (in Sheol) and into Heaven by Jesus Christ himself (He had the keys, remember).

 

[Abigail]

Sheol is “the grave” … not the simple hole in the ground that we place a body in, the holding place of the dead. Either Paradise (Abraham’s Bosom) or Gehenna (a place of fiery torment and God’s curse); those are the two parts of Sheol. This is the OT afterlife. We see it illustrated CLERLY by Jesus in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. After the Crucifixion and resurrection, things change for the “saints” since those in Abraham’s Bosom were led out of captivity (in Sheol) and into Heaven by Jesus Christ himself (He had the keys, remember).

I remember, thanks.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Where do you suppose all the dead went back then before Christ died and rose ?
No one ascended into heaven except he who came down from heaven that is the Son of Man, Christ who is from heaven
They descended into the places under the earth. GOD also is in all the places that exist, including hell.
None of them who died went to heaven, they were all of the earth, so the dust of the earth received them and their spirit.

"Death" is the opposite of "life". Why can't humans just be "dead"? Who said they had to go somewhere? If you invent immortal souls, you have to invent places for them to go.
No one wants to die so when the devil told Eve, "you surely will not die" but death was inevitable as God had decreed, he sold them a lie.....you don't really die, but go on living in some other place in spirit form. The Bible does not teach this. It tells us that Jesus and his elect will rule from heaven, but that they will have earthly subjects. Not all Christians are "saints" with "the heavenly calling" . (Hebrews 3:1; 1 Corinthians 1:2)

There is no teaching of an immortal soul in the Hebrew scriptures, so no Jew would have believed in some place of conscious existence except the earth where God put us. They had no notion of going to heaven because they believed that God's Kingdom would be here on the earth with God's anointed Messiah ruling over the whole earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Hell-Shoell-Tartarus- the places of the dead, also included a place called paradise, or Abraham's bosom.

First of all...there is no such word as "hell" (meaning a place of conscious torment for the wicked after death)
"Hell" is a translation of "hades"..."sheol", "gehenna" and the condition where God restrained the demon angels after the flood (Tartarus). A really bad mistranslation. These are all different words with different meanings.

So "sheol", (the NT Greek equivalent is "hades") according to the OT Hebrew scriptures, was not a place of conscious existence at all. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) It was a place where the dead "slept" in an unconscious state until the resurrection.
Even Jesus confirmed that he believed that the dead were "sleeping". When he was going to raise Lazarus he said...

“Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died". (John 11:11-14)

As for "Abraham's bosom" this is obviously a reference to the parable that Jesus gave concerning 'the rich man and the beggar', but reference to "Abraham's bosom" has nothing to do with people going to heaven....it is a parable among many illustrations where Jesus contrasted the Pharisees, pictured by the rich man, and the beggar, who represented the common people whom the Pharisees despised and neglected. Their deaths were a complete reversal of their status where the "bosom of Abraham" was a position of favor with God, which the Pharisees lost, and which the "lost sheep" pictured by Lazarus gained.
It is comical to use this parable as a proof of heaven and hell. Taken literally this story would be ridiculous.
Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Can a drop of water on a man's finger quench someone's thirst in a fire?