Christians are not under the New Covenant

[keithr]

The discussion that brought this about was your RCC belief that a priest in a confessional can forgive sins ...

You're mixing me up with theefaith again! I am not a RC and I don't have RCC beliefs.

 

[theefaith]

In your other post, you used Luke 10:16 which, when compared, is very similar to John. 20:23.

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
​

When a person confess his sins to a priest instead of asking forgiveness from anyone other that Christ, he is putting that priest above Christ; therefore creating an idol because it undermines and rejects the authority that was given to Christ to forgive us of our sins.

But it was shortly before Jesus' ascension that He spoke the following words about forgiveness in John 20:23 to his apostles.

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20:23)​

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Christ was actually granting to the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that the apostles passed on to their successors (supposedly the Roman priesthood) the same license to pardon sin.

This position is false. No interpretation is to be placed upon a difficult and obscure passage (such as this one) that would place it in direct conflict with numerous other clear texts.

The fact is, though all Christians are to forgive one another, by have a forgiving attitude (Eph. 4:32), ultimately, only God can bestow absolute pardon (cf. Psa. 130:4; Isa. 43:25; Dan. 9:9; Mic. 7:18; Acts 8:22). The Lord did not grant that right to the apostles or anyone else.

The grammar in John 20:23 is important in order to get the right interpretation of John 20:23. The Greek tenses of John 20:23 make it clear that the apostles were authorized only to announce the terms of forgiveness on the basis of God’s previous appointment.

Literally, the text suggests:

“Those whose sins you forgive, have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven.”

The first verbs in the two clauses are aorist tense forms, while the second verbs are in the perfect tense. The perfect tense verbs imply an abiding state which commenced before the action of the aorists.

In other words, the apostles (and others since that time) were only authorized to declare forgiveness consistent with what the Lord had already determined.

Lastly, in Acts 2, which is the best example of John 20:23, the disciples were only authorized to announce the terms of salvation rather than personally granting it is confirmed by the fact that on that day of Pentecost, in harmony with the Spirit’s guidance, they did not personally forgive the sins of anyone. Rather, they merely proclaimed the conditions of pardon to which men and women complied eagerly.

To those believers who sincerely inquired: “What shall we do?”, Peter responded,

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:37-38).​

Immediately after, Peter told them what they had to do for themselves scripture says that:

"...those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.” (Acts 2:41).​

Therefore, upon the basis of responding to Peter's sermon, they received the forgiveness of their sins. This account surely is the pattern of what God inspired Peter to do for receiving forgiveness for their part in the crucifixion of Jesus and for their own personal salvation and stands for the basis of the foundation of Christs' church on earth until He comes at the end of this age.

John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting absolution from sin and to do so is heresy otherwise.

yes it does

it is Christ acting thru them
Christ and his church are one
Christ continues his work of redemption thru his church
There is no “finished work of Christ” but his church is an extension of Christ teaching and healing

 

[theefaith]

In your other post, you used Luke 10:16 which, when compared, is very similar to John. 20:23.

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
​

When a person confess his sins to a priest instead of asking forgiveness from anyone other that Christ, he is putting that priest above Christ; therefore creating an idol because it undermines and rejects the authority that was given to Christ to forgive us of our sins.

But it was shortly before Jesus' ascension that He spoke the following words about forgiveness in John 20:23 to his apostles.

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (John 20:23)​

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Christ was actually granting to the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that the apostles passed on to their successors (supposedly the Roman priesthood) the same license to pardon sin.

This position is false. No interpretation is to be placed upon a difficult and obscure passage (such as this one) that would place it in direct conflict with numerous other clear texts.

The fact is, though all Christians are to forgive one another, by have a forgiving attitude (Eph. 4:32), ultimately, only God can bestow absolute pardon (cf. Psa. 130:4; Isa. 43:25; Dan. 9:9; Mic. 7:18; Acts 8:22). The Lord did not grant that right to the apostles or anyone else.

The grammar in John 20:23 is important in order to get the right interpretation of John 20:23. The Greek tenses of John 20:23 make it clear that the apostles were authorized only to announce the terms of forgiveness on the basis of God’s previous appointment.

Literally, the text suggests:

“Those whose sins you forgive, have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven.”

The first verbs in the two clauses are aorist tense forms, while the second verbs are in the perfect tense. The perfect tense verbs imply an abiding state which commenced before the action of the aorists.

In other words, the apostles (and others since that time) were only authorized to declare forgiveness consistent with what the Lord had already determined.

Lastly, in Acts 2, which is the best example of John 20:23, the disciples were only authorized to announce the terms of salvation rather than personally granting it is confirmed by the fact that on that day of Pentecost, in harmony with the Spirit’s guidance, they did not personally forgive the sins of anyone. Rather, they merely proclaimed the conditions of pardon to which men and women complied eagerly.

To those believers who sincerely inquired: “What shall we do?”, Peter responded,

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:37-38).​

Immediately after, Peter told them what they had to do for themselves scripture says that:

"...those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.” (Acts 2:41).​

Therefore, upon the basis of responding to Peter's sermon, they received the forgiveness of their sins. This account surely is the pattern of what God inspired Peter to do for receiving forgiveness for their part in the crucifixion of Jesus and for their own personal salvation and stands for the basis of the foundation of Christs' church on earth until He comes at the end of this age.

John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting absolution from sin and to do so is heresy otherwise.

also they must hear our sins in order to know if they are going to forgive or retain them.

 

[Cassandra]

also they must hear our sins in order to know if they are going to forgive or retain them.

For someone to claim to forgive sins is blasphemy.
Mark 2:3-10
"3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)"

Only the Father and the Son can.
Isa. 43:25 "I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more."

And we are all priests. Who said this?? Peter!!Whoa!
1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings."
But who mediates for us?
1Tim 2:55 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

So, @theefaith you don't confess your sins to God or Jesus? Ever?

 

[theefaith]

For someone to claim to forgive sins is blasphemy.
Mark 2:3-10
"3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)"

Only the Father and the Son can.
Isa. 43:25 "I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more."

And we are all priests. Who said this?? Peter!!Whoa!
1 Peter 2[:9] says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings."
But who mediates for us?
1Tim 2:55 "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

So, @theefaith you don't confess your sins to God or Jesus? Ever?

then why does Christ give this power to the apostles? Jn 20:23

why do they have the same mission ministry power and authority as Christ Jn 20:21

why do they have the ministry of reconciliation?

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[Cassandra]

then why does Christ give this power to the apostles? Jn 20:23

why do they have the same mission ministry power and authority as Christ Jn 20:21

why do they have the ministry of reconciliation?

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

What great questions!!

Ministry of reconciliation is to preach and teach the gospel and repair the relationship between God and man. All pastors, teachers, and us when we speak about Jesus to others participate in it.

Let's look at the forgiveness of sins another way. Some Catholics believe that the priest is the conduit which mediates the request for forgiveness through him to God. OK. The Bible says that there is only "ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:55. So now we have a problem. Which is correct? If it is true that we only have one mediator, than confessing to a priest is not what we are supposed to do. We are told we can come boldly to the throne of grace. "“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:16
So what do we do? There is a problem here.

 

[Moriah's Song]

You're mixing me up with theefaith again!

Ooooops! I do have to work on that!

 

[theefaith]

What great questions!!

Ministry of reconciliation is to preach and teach the gospel and repair the relationship between God and man. All pastors, teachers, and us when we speak about Jesus to others participate in it.

Let's look at the forgiveness of sins another way. Some Catholics believe that the priest is the conduit which mediates the request for forgiveness through him to God. OK. The Bible says that there is only "ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:55. So now we have a problem. Which is correct? If it is true that we only have one mediator, than confessing to a priest is not what we are supposed to do. We are told we can come boldly to the throne of grace. "“Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:16
So what do we do? There is a problem here.

there not s only one judge too!

but you fundamentalist must understand that Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

the church is an extension of Christ having his authority that’s why the apostles will judge!!!

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus Christ is the light of the world!

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

And he shares this light with his church his apostles

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

 

[Moriah's Song]

also they must hear our sins in order to know if they are going to forgive or retain them.

Why should you be confessing your sins to a sinner like a priest....or to Mary who was a sinner also???

Here you see the Jewish leaders attempting to get the apostles to do as they wanted them to do. Take note of what they did instead.

Act 4:5...On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem,
Act 4:18...So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19-20...But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge; for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."​

What did the apostles refuse to do? They stood their ground and refused to follow the multitude of traditions that the religious leaders had imposed on the people and listened to God instead of the falsehood of the Jewish councils.

It is the RCC that hold fear over their membership by putting the "traditions of men" over their heads just as those Jewish leaders did. But those apostles knew who defy and instead chose to follow the words of Christ instead of the imposing burdened yoke of the Jewish leaders. You have to make a choice to decide who to follow also. Who takes priority in your life? A sinner priest, a sinner Mary? Or a sinless Christ?

 

[Enoch111]

but you fundamentalist must understand that Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Why do Catholics always equate "the Church" with "the Catholic Church" when they are poles apart? You should also become a "fundamentalist" and give up all the Catholic claptrap. In fact, when you stand before Christ He will ask you why you preferred the lies to the truth when He is the Truth?

 

[theefaith]

Why should you be confessing your sins to a sinner like a priest....or to Mary who was a sinner also???

Here you see the Jewish leaders attempting to get the apostles to do as they wanted them to do. Take note of what they did instead.

Act 4:5...On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem,
Act 4:18...So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19-20...But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge; for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."​

What did the apostles refuse to do? They stood their ground and refused to follow the multitude of traditions that the religious leaders had imposed on the people and listened to God instead of the falsehood of the Jewish councils.

It is the RCC that hold fear over their membership by putting the "traditions of men" over their heads just as those Jewish leaders did. But those apostles knew who defy and instead chose to follow the words of Christ instead of the imposing burdened yoke of the Jewish leaders. You have to make a choice to decide who to follow also. Who takes priority in your life? A sinner priest, a sinner Mary? Or a sinless Christ?

Why should you be confessing your sins to a sinner like a priest....or to Mary who was a sinner also???

Here you see the Jewish leaders attempting to get the apostles to do as they wanted them to do. Take note of what they did instead.

Act 4:5...On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem,
Act 4:18...So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19-20...But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge; for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."​

What did the apostles refuse to do? They stood their ground and refused to follow the multitude of traditions that the religious leaders had imposed on the people and listened to God instead of the falsehood of the Jewish councils.

It is the RCC that hold fear over their membership by putting the "traditions of men" over their heads just as those Jewish leaders did. But those apostles knew who defy and instead chose to follow the words of Christ instead of the imposing burdened yoke of the Jewish leaders. You have to make a choice to decide who to follow also. Who takes priority in your life? A sinner priest, a sinner Mary? Or a sinless Christ?

Christ an his church are one!

answer my questions please

then why does Christ give the power forgive sin to the apostles? Jn 20:23

why do they have the same mission ministry power and authority as Christ Jn 20:21

why do they have the ministry of reconciliation?

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[theefaith]

Why should you be confessing your sins to a sinner like a priest....or to Mary who was a sinner also???

Here you see the Jewish leaders attempting to get the apostles to do as they wanted them to do. Take note of what they did instead.

Act 4:5...On the morrow their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem,
Act 4:18...So they called them and charged them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
Act 4:19-20...But Peter and John answered them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge; for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard."​

What did the apostles refuse to do? They stood their ground and refused to follow the multitude of traditions that the religious leaders had imposed on the people and listened to God instead of the falsehood of the Jewish councils.

It is the RCC that hold fear over their membership by putting the "traditions of men" over their heads just as those Jewish leaders did. But those apostles knew who defy and instead chose to follow the words of Christ instead of the imposing burdened yoke of the Jewish leaders. You have to make a choice to decide who to follow also. Who takes priority in your life? A sinner priest, a sinner Mary? Or a sinless Christ?

Mary a sinner?

Gen 3:14 lk 1:28 rev 12:1

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

Proving Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

 

[theefaith]

Why do Catholics always equate "the Church" with "the Catholic Church" when they are poles apart? You should also become a "fundamentalist" and give up all the Catholic claptrap. In fact, when you stand before Christ He will ask you why you preferred the lies to the truth when He is the Truth?

love the truth!

the blinding light of Christ!

but this extends to his church!

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

only one city
One church Jn 10:16

 

[Jim B]

Mary a sinner?

Gen 3:14 lk 1:28 rev 12:1

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

Proving Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary ... Mary. She is a minor character in the Bible. She gave birth to Jesus and, along with Joseph, raised Him, and was a witness to His crucifixion. The glorification of this girl/woman goes way beyond what the Bible says about her.

She is not our (Biblical) "spiritual mother".

She was a sinner; there is nothing that says otherwise.

She is not "the mother of our salvation"; that is not in the Bible.

She is not, according to the Bible, a perpetual virgin. Jesus had siblings by this "virgin". (BTW, the word "virgin" in Isaiah 14 can also be translated "young woman").

Luke 1:28, " The angel came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one, the Lord is with you!” That is the entire verse. Here is the translator's comment from the NET v2.1, "Most mss (A C D Θ ƒ13 33 M latt sy) read here εὐλογημένη σὺ ἐν γυναιξίν (eulogēmenē su en gunaixin, “blessed are you among women”) which also appears in 1:42 (where it is textually certain). This has the earmarks of a scribal addition for balance; the shorter reading, attested by the most significant witnesses and several others (א B L W Ψ ƒ1 565 579 700 1241 co), is thus preferred."

What is this need to glorify Mary far beyond what the Bible actually says about her? She was a young woman, chosen by God for one task: to give birth to Jesus. Period. What is your actual need to exaggerate whom she really was? Is it something in your earthly culture that compels you to create a myth about this minor figure in the Bible? You might want to look into marianismo, the artificial standard created by men that is impossible for any woman to live up to.

According to Evelyn Stevens, author of Marianismo: The Other Face of Machismo in Latin America, “...the characteristics of this ideal are semidivinity, moral superiority, and spiritual strength." This means that Latina women are put on a pedestal and revered as people who have unlimited spiritual strength and patience who are still submissive and forgiving to the men in their lives, regardless of what the men in their lives put them through.

 

[theefaith]

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified inhis saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

All praise honor and veneration of Mary and the saints ends in Christ who merited the grace that made them holy! Lk 1:49



Mary is our spiritual mother

Mary is the Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

 

[theefaith]

Mary & Eve!

Eve was of the First creation: carnal
Mary of the New creation: spiritual

Eve the cos of Sin and curse disobeyed God! Gen 3:12
Mary cos of salvation, Lk 1:30 & consented to our salvation Lk 1:38 obeyed God & found our salvation Lk 1:30

Eve mourned:
Mary rejoiced: Lk 1:46

Eve gave birth to the all sinners: mother of all the living. Gen 3:20
Mary to the savior of all men: mother of all living in Christ. Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17

Mary the mother of God! Lk 1:43

Eve brought punishment: gen 3:16
Mary salvation: Lk 1:30 & 38 Lk 2:30

Eve source of sin: gen 3:16
Mary source of grace: Lk 1:30 & 38

Eve brought death: gen 3:19
Mary life: Jn 1:16-17 & Jn 10:10

Eve only wounds & suffering: gen 3:19
Mary healing:

Eve infidelity: gen 3:6
Mary faithfulness: Lk 1:45

Eve offended the Lord: gen 3:6-7
Mary’s soul (being) doth magnify the Lord: Lk 1:46

Eve cursed: gen 3:17-19
Mary blessed: Lk 1:28

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women!
Lk 1:28

 

[theefaith]

I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 – we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” This refers to Jesus (the “emnity”) and Mary (the “woman”). The phrase “her seed” (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 – the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 – Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull. (Her humility Lk 1:48 crushes his pride)

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 – a virgin (the Greek word used is “parthenos”) will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” John 1:14 – God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 – Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 – the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”).

Luke 1:28 – “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God. (Simply praying scripture)

Luke 1:28 – also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is used to describe Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 – Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration. (Consented to our salvation )

Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary. (All praise of Mary returns to God who created her immaculate without any sin, and to Christ who’s merits virtues and grace fills her immaculate soul!)

Luke 1:43 – Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature – mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 – Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 – Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 – Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 – God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 – the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 – Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 – Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.






II. Mary – the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Exodus 25:11-21 – the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 – the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 – this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 – these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark – veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 – Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 – John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 – How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 – Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 – at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 – the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 – this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 – Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 – for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 – Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 – also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 – Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 – Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 – Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 – in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Mary of the New creation: spiritual

Lots of words; lots of false doctrine; lots of waste of time because no one is buying what you are trying to sell us. It is obvious that you are sooooo deep into Roman Catholicism that I'm not sure if you are either a priest or a nun; but you don't seem to have the ears to hear or the eyes to see the truths of scripture.

Mary the New Creation? Really?

Proof of her being a sinner

Firstly, all men have sinned, including Mary, and fallen short of the glory of God [Rom 3:23], and through one man sin entered the world and death spread to all men [Rom 5:12]. King David writing in Psalms says that he was brought forth in iniquity and in sin when his mother conceived him - biblical proof of mankinds sinful nature from the time of conception. [Psa 51:5]. According to the law of Moses every mother that conceived, either a male or female, had to after an appointed time offer sacrifices to God: one as a burnt offering, and one as a sin offering [Lev.12]. Mary, after conceiving Jesus made these sacrifices in accordance and obedience to the Law God gave to Moses. This is clearly indicated to us in the book of Luke chap. 2 ver. 21-24, as Mary applies this very observance as is required of every Jewish woman who conceives her first born son. Read Leviticus 12 is first, understand what is being said, then read Luke 2:21-24. Once reading and understanding what is being said, it is clear that the offering Mary offers makes according to ... law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. [Lk.2:24], ... the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: ... [Lev. 12:8]. The sin offering Mary gives is sufficient evidence Mary's carnality.​

In need of a Saviour

Other proof of Mary being a sinner is found when Mary declares the need of a saviour. One is only in need of a saviour when realizing they are helpless and hopeless; that God in Christ having paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, is the One in Whom we are able to find redemption. [Col.1:12-14]. Mary also said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" [Luke 1:46,47]. Again, Mary admits her estate as the handmaiden of God and not "Mother of God". Admiting her estate as a handmaiden because God used her instrumentally as a vessel to conceive the Lord Jesus Christ. By Mary s own words, she removes any idea of pre-emanance so as not to assume exaltation above God s calling upon her life. "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" [Luke 1:48].​

Had more than four children

The Scriptures catergorically state the family Jesus had, and that Mary did conceive after the birth of Jesus. She never remained a virgin, and can never be considered "immaculate" as the Roman Catholic Church has exalteded her to be. "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?" (Mat 13:55,56).​

Not Mediatrix

Mary as mediatrix is unfounded in Scripture. Scripture tells us who makes intercession for the saints before the Father.

There are two mediators in Scripture, who are:

Firstly, the Lord Jesus Christ.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to
continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. [Heb 7:22-25].

Secondly, the Holy Spirit.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. [Rom 8:26,27].​

I HOPE AND PRAY THAT SOME OF THIS WILL OPEN YOUR EYES! I have family that are RCC's and they are not as indoctrinated as you seem to be.

 

[Jim B]

Lots of words; lots of false doctrine; lots of waste of time because no one is buying what you are trying to sell us. It is obvious that you are sooooo deep into Roman Catholicism that I'm not sure if you are either a priest or a nun; but you don't seem to have the ears to hear or the eyes to see the truths of scripture.

Mary the New Creation? Really?

Proof of her being a sinner

Firstly, all men have sinned, including Mary, and fallen short of the glory of God [Rom 3:23], and through one man sin entered the world and death spread to all men [Rom 5:12]. King David writing in Psalms says that he was brought forth in iniquity and in sin when his mother conceived him - biblical proof of mankinds sinful nature from the time of conception. [Psa 51:5]. According to the law of Moses every mother that conceived, either a male or female, had to after an appointed time offer sacrifices to God: one as a burnt offering, and one as a sin offering [Lev.12]. Mary, after conceiving Jesus made these sacrifices in accordance and obedience to the Law God gave to Moses. This is clearly indicated to us in the book of Luke chap. 2 ver. 21-24, as Mary applies this very observance as is required of every Jewish woman who conceives her first born son. Read Leviticus 12 is first, understand what is being said, then read Luke 2:21-24. Once reading and understanding what is being said, it is clear that the offering Mary offers makes according to ... law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. [Lk.2:24], ... the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: ... [Lev. 12:8]. The sin offering Mary gives is sufficient evidence Mary's carnality.​

In need of a Saviour

Other proof of Mary being a sinner is found when Mary declares the need of a saviour. One is only in need of a saviour when realizing they are helpless and hopeless; that God in Christ having paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, is the One in Whom we are able to find redemption. [Col.1:12-14]. Mary also said, "My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" [Luke 1:46,47]. Again, Mary admits her estate as the handmaiden of God and not "Mother of God". Admiting her estate as a handmaiden because God used her instrumentally as a vessel to conceive the Lord Jesus Christ. By Mary s own words, she removes any idea of pre-emanance so as not to assume exaltation above God s calling upon her life. "For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" [Luke 1:48].​

Had more than four children

The Scriptures catergorically state the family Jesus had, and that Mary did conceive after the birth of Jesus. She never remained a virgin, and can never be considered "immaculate" as the Roman Catholic Church has exalteded her to be. "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?" (Mat 13:55,56).​

Not Mediatrix

Mary as mediatrix is unfounded in Scripture. Scripture tells us who makes intercession for the saints before the Father.

There are two mediators in Scripture, who are:

Firstly, the Lord Jesus Christ.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to
continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. [Heb 7:22-25].

Secondly, the Holy Spirit.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. [Rom 8:26,27].​

I HOPE AND PRAY THAT SOME OF THIS WILL OPEN YOUR EYES! I have family that are RCC's and they are not as indoctrinated as you seem to be.

Great post! Very insightful and informative.

 

[theefaith]

Reply to mSong

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)
Rom. 3:23 – Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But “all have sinned ” only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.
Rom. 3:23 – “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.
Rom. 3:23 – finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”
1 Cor. 15:22 – in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).
Rom. 5:12 – Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).
Rom. 5:19 – here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.
Rom. 3:10-11 – Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.
Psalm 14 – this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.
Psalm 53:1-3 – “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”
Luke 18:19 – Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.
Rom. 9:11 – God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.
Luke 1:47 – Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.
Luke 1:48 – Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.