1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
It is the inner old man that is crucified with Christ and raised with Christ. The outer shell does not change, just our inner nature. And Jesus doesn't cover us, we abide in Him, and He in us.
Galatians 2:20
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It is the inner old man that is crucified with Christ and raised with Christ. The outer shell does not change, just our inner nature. And Jesus doesn't cover us, we abide in Him, and He in us.
We are born again in the inward man...or inner man...the part of us that contains our spirits....and our wills. That is the part of us that is created in God's image...and EVERYONE has an inner man. So that makes all people redeemable. The outer man is the outer covering of protection needed for survival in the temporal fallen world. The inner man is weak and naked without the outer man. That's why Jesus tells the Laodiceans that they (in reality) are poor naked and blind in their true condition. That means they are UNCOVERED in truth but pretending to be covered by Christ. That is the state of the modern church. When the outer man is out of the way the inner man can be COVERED by God's righteousness so that the power of God rests ON the person.
We abide IN Him because we are covered by Him. Think about it. We are covered in skin because we live in our skin.
Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies...unless the husk of the seed is broken...no life and no fruit comes out. Our inner man is trapped within the husk of the outer man. When the outer man is broken through the power of the cross...crucified...THEN the inner life can come under the power of God so that we are able to walk as Jesus walked.
You've avoided my question.AGAIN, Romans 7:16-20 is an unborn again person UNDER THE LAW before the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ - the culmination in chapter 8!!! So, of course, sin still dwells in them! Oy vey, marks!
Much love!
I remain very curious why it is that no one seems able to give an answer to these questions. I know the answer. Does anyone else? What changed, so that Paul said, therefore, it is no more I, but sin that lives in me? What changed? How do you account for his words?
Saying, this was Paul in flesh under law, that doesn't address this question. Only a correct soteriology can properly address this question.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Paul is talking about the Ten Commandments, the law of Moses. Before that law, like in the time of Abraham, "we were alive," unaware of sin. But when the law came then sin came alive in our mind instead. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. It is like "don't think of a pink elephant." Now what just came into your mind? A pink elephant right? That is all Paul is saying. Since Adam sinned all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It is sin in our nature that causes the ten commandments to not be able to make us righteous. It is made weak by the flesh. That is the reason why Jesus came - to kill the desire to sin in our nature by crucifying the old nature, and then raising us up as new born creations without a sin nature. But that is only true of people who have been filled with the Holy Spirit of God. Unfortunately that doesn't happen to all Christians. I was in church for 30 years before my sin nature was killed. I felt it leave! But before it left, I was a slave to sin. But I no longer was a slave to sin after it left. I was a slave to righteousness. Romans 6:18 "And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." That is all I wanted to do. There is nothing "imputed" about it. Jesus actually makes us act righteously without the written law, because Jesus writes those laws on our hearts.
But in Romans 7:17 is when I was still a slave to sin. I had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Get it?
When Paul says..."it is no more I" he is identifying with the part of him that God does....the inner man. He is identifying a law in his members...the outer man.
When Paul says I am crucified with Christ....he is saying that his outer man is out of the way. "No longer I"... is the outer man..."nevertheless I live" .... that is the inner man.
The inner man is created in God's image...it is the part of us that is regenerated by the Spirit (in our spirits). The outer man is an animal covering that protects us in this world...like a foreskin of protection...or the husk around a seed.
If we use the analogy of a nut in a shell...we are the nut inside!
But VERY few people know themselves well enough to discern where they are living from. Most people would find living from the inner man intolerable. No defense, just meek and fearful. BUT that is the part that God wants to cover with HIS righteousness...by grace through faith.
This change is in Paul's perception of himself, is this what you are saying?
Much love!
This is the change Paul is speaking of? That previously, sin was in him, but now it had left him? Is this what you are saying?
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Yes. That is what Paul is saying. That is why when you walk in the Spirit, you are not under the old law. The old law was only for sinners.
Galatians 3:19a
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed (Jesus) should come to whom the promise was made
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me (Paul) free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
condemned sin in the flesh means Jesus killed sin in the flesh. Sin is from Satan and Jesus destroyed the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Not at all. Paul was not a philosopher. As a Jew he was very pragmatic in his descriptions. He in fact warned against vain philosophies. Rather he experienced the inner man/outer man duality in very real contrast....that's why he wrote what he did. Whether we will benefit from his admonitions and testimony really depends on what part of us is in control...the outer man...or the inner man.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I don't know where you are getting this jargon from. Maybe that is why I'm confused. Romans 6:6-7 talks about the old man (our sin nature) being crucified - making our nature dead to sin. The outer man is just a shell that has no need to be reborn until the resurrection at the second coming. It just keeps getting older and older until it dies. Sin is in our nature - the old man.
Romans 6:
knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
E, you really need to use biblical words for clarity. Otherwise it just becomes man-made philosophies. And, personally and frankly, I rarely agree with those.
One thing that Paul made clear is that we do not have two natures at the same time. We are either serving the devil, or Jesus. But never both. This is why it is important to not just have the fact that we are dead to sin when the old man dies, but we need to reckon ourselves dead to sin, because we still have freedom or choice.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
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Actually we have an outer man because of Adam...because of his sin we were cut off from God and HIS covering...so we were naked in the world....both physically AND spiritually. We all have an outer man to cover up our spiritual nakedness. But what is good for this world is a hindrance for intimacy with God. Just as the body requires clothing so also the inner man needs a protective covering. We also see this protective covering with the male foreskin...
Why circumcision before God?
Just as an intimacy between a man and a woman (in marriage) requires the shedding of clothing so also intimacy with God involves the shedding of the clothing which is the outer man. I am speaking in spiritual terms here.
The foreskin is a covering of flesh...a physical representation of the outer man. To enter into Christ we need to be circumcised in the outer man...to break the carnal nature of sin and an independent nature that is what protects us and covers us in this world.
Human righteousness is an uncovered righteousness. If we add any other covering to that basic human state we are adding sin to sin (Is 30:1)
We need understanding of these things if we want to get our doctrines straight.
The old man is the person were before given a sample of grace in Christ when we are born again. And we are INDEED a man of 2 natures until we are crucified in the outer (outward) man. We produce BOTH good and evil until we are crucified with Christ (the tree of Life). Being dead to sin is an experience of the cross. Again the first time it is for a sample of that experience. To "reckon" is to no longer put any value on the person we used to be when the outer man covered the inner man. We are to have NO more confidence in the flesh.
The New Man is the inner man covered by the perfection of Christ. With the covering of Christ we come under grace to abide IN Christ. Our covering is our spiritual environment. We grow in likeness and stature of what COVERS us. Whether that be the flesh or the Spirit.
When it rains we get wet. Why? Because we are covered by rain clouds. Things in heaven affect things on earth. Does it ever rain when the skies are clear? No, we need to be covered by rain clouds to get rained on and become soaked with water from above. Very logical.
God's ways have logic to them...but you need to consider those things.
I find that there is a general lack of understanding of righteousness today. Righteous is as righteous does. The righteous obey in whatever capacity they have. So whether we are present with the Lord (walking by the Spirit) or absent from the Lord (walking in our own limitation) we should do at least what is acceptable to God (if not pleasing to Him).
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It’s kind of bizarre…it’s like…
no, I only have to believe what God said.
If you believe what He said, you will DO what He said.
No, I can’t do what He said because I cannot overcome my nature.
You can’t, but HE can give you victory if you continue to trust.
No, He can’t do it or He would have already.
Do you think that is unbelief?
No, because I only have to believe I will live forever. I don’t have to believe anything else He said, and I definitely don’t have to DO any of it, because I can’t.
So then what changed for him? From what, to what?
Romans 7:14-20 KJV
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
"Now then it is no more I" There was a state or circumstance that existed, and then it changed, so he wrote, It is no more I, something changed, what was it?
If you understand this passage I'd imaging you could answer this simple and straightforward question, but nothing will make sense unless it's in a correct understanding of the passage. Answer this correctly and the meaning will be clear.
Much love!
marks said: ↑
This is the change Paul is speaking of? That previously, sin was in him, but now it had left him? Is this what you are saying?
Much love!
Where did it go?
Romans 7:19-25 KJV
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Much love!
This is the change Paul is speaking of? That previously, sin was in him, but now it had left him? Is this what you are saying?
Much love!
Where did it go?
Romans 7:19-25 KJV
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Much love!
The thing to understand is that he's already given victory, only, be it to you according to your faith. If you don't believe it you don't walk in it.
Much love!
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
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