The Pre-Trib Rapture

[No Pre-TB]

Isreal is not the tree. Why is there neither greek nor Jew in Christ? There are natural branches, and wild branches. The ones having received covenantal relationship with God, and ones who had not. In Christ all are brought into covenantal relationship with God, but not in the previous way, from the two, He has made one new man. That new man is not an Israelite.

And still, when Jesus comes, He's going to send His angels to regather all of His chosen nation back to their promised land, not leaving a single one of them in gentile lands, Just like He promised.

Call it theory, call it dispensationalism, call it any label you like, I just call it what the Bible says. If it makes someone change their theory, well, I'm alway open to changing my ideas as I learn more of what the Bible says.

Much love!

You have made clear your position. I and others disagree with you. There’s nothing else to be said if you are not open, but closed up.

 

[Enoch111]

There’s nothing else to be said if you are not open, but closed up.

No Christian should be open to false teachings. The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is the only biblical doctrine, and all others are false.

 

[No Pre-TB]

No Christian should be open to false teachings. The Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is the only biblical doctrine, and all others are false.

Enoch, obviously you're trying to bait me. Christians shouldn't do this; as if you're trying to build a stumbling block against me and cause me to slip in anger. You're free to believe what you want, whether it is right in your eyes or wrong to others.

But you're right, no Christian should be open to false teaching. Yet we have many different denominations all teaching different things. We have different schools of thought on baptism, the trinity, eschatology and Israel just to name a few. And not everyone can be right. I guess you have every inch of it all figured out. You should write a book! And let your readers respond on what they think of it. This is something quite a few ministers do nowadays.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I believe he always keeps his promise. But how we understand it, we may differ. And on that subject I’m not going to get into here.

All theory proponents will argue Differences until Great GRACE Departure, But THEN:

At Judgment, we Will All Have to agree, correct?

 

[No Pre-TB]

All theory proponents will argue Differences until Great GRACE Departure, But THEN:

At Judgment, we Will All Have to agree, correct?

Yes, and according to 2 Tim 4:1, it happens when he appears in his kingdom.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

All theory proponents will argue Differences until Great GRACE Departure, But THEN:

At Judgment, we Will All Have to agree, correct?

Yes, and according to 2 Tim 4:1, it happens when he appears in his kingdom.

Amen! HIS "Heavenly kingdom" into which The Body Of
CHRIST "has [Already] been translated!" (Colossians 1:13).

 

[No Pre-TB]

Amen! HIS "Heavenly kingdom" into which The Body Of CHRIST
"has [Already] been translated!" (Colossians 1:13).

The heavenly kingdom of God, on the earth where we reign with him.
The dead are judged (2 Tim 4:1) and we are rewarded. 2 Tim 4:8 says that happens at his appearing which 2 Tim 4:1 shows is in his kingdom via Rev 11:18.

 

[ewq1938]

The dead are judged (2 Tim 4:1) and we are rewarded.

The dead there are the dead in Christ, also being judged and rewarded. The unsaved dead are not judged at the second coming.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The dead there are the dead in Christ, also being judged and rewarded. The unsaved dead are not judged at the second coming.

Yes ewq, but I didn’t suggest that. I was only making the point to grace that the dead and living are judged when Christ reigns in his kingdom per 2 Tim 4:1, which tells us that’s when he appears. That word appearing, is epiphania where we get the “blessed hope and glorious appearing”. The judgment and reward for believers happens at the 7th trumpet per Rev 11:18 linking it to 2 Tim 4.
There is no resurrection beforehand as it is said to happen on the last day. And if there is a last day, or last time period, it can only be the last of this age before the start of a new one (millennial reign). There cannot be a last day resurrection if 7 years (or 14 years if you think Noah went into the ark 7 days before wrath (7 days = 7 yrs) and the wrath is 7 years long (Daniel’s 70th week) = 14 yrs lol) exist. Such a mess.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes ewq, but I didn’t suggest that.

I wanted to make sure just in case

 

[Curtis]

People don't really understand what the "Old Covenant" was it seems !! What Covenant did Abraham make with God? Was it the Law? Of course not, that's just erroneous isn't it, Abraham created the PROMISE COVENANT with God not the Law Covenant. As Galatians 3 tells us, the Law was added 430 years later. Anyone thinking that THE LAW was ever the Covenant is just in error.

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul(meaning the Law which came LATER never did away with THE PROMISE), that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

So, do you still think the Law was ever a true Covenant between God and Israel? No, it was added in because of sin. No one can be justified by the law.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

So, was the PROMISED COMING a "New Covenant", no of course not, it was the original covenant of the PROMISED COMING of the Messianic Lamb of God.

So, you do not seem to understand Jesus' promised coming was the REAL Old Covenant, and his coming ended THE LAW which was added in because of sins. God divorced Israel because of unbelief and thus as Paul says in Romans 11 when they BELIVE AGAIN God will graft them back in. Lets see if you can read Zechariah 13:8-9 where God says 1/3 of Israel repents just before the DOTL that is shown to come in Zechariah 14:1-2. Paul stated God's callings are without repentance. So, Israel was called to be a part of the the coming Kingdom Age and that will happen after they repent and Jesus rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years.


Yes they are, you simply do not understand the scriptures that shows us this brother. God is shouting at you with 12 (which means fulness) Jewish names x 12,000 and you can't grasp that its ALL Israel who repent. Its not even debatable.



Don't run away from the full context, Romans chapters 9-11 are all one passage. Paul says ALL Israel will be saved, not every Jew, but Israel as the Kingdom Age Nation will be preserved. All you have to do is read, Zechariah 8:9 says 1/3 of the Jews REPENT. And Malachi 4:5 says Elijah returns before the Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God.

The rest is not relevant, we know God turned His back on Israel until 1948, that's what the Ezekiel chapter 37 prophetic Dead Men's Bones are all about, BUT.......You seem to not be able to understand prophecy in full, God says he will make those Dead Men's Bones LIVE AGAIN, and that he will bring the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel back into the land in the end times and put LIFE back into them in a spiritual sense also. He BREATHES on Israel and they are quickened by His Spirit.

When the Bible mentions old and new covenants, it’s NOT talking about the Abrahamic covenant, but the two covenants God has with ISRAEL.

The covenant given to Moses was 430 years after Abraham, as your proof text says, and it is the old covenant that has ended, and it ended when God divorced Israel for adultery in Jeremiah 3:8.

That covenant was replaced at the death of Jesus with the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the house of Israel - which is a better covenant founded on better promises.

The 144,000 is made up of Israelites from the ten tribes, but is not the only Israelites that will be saved - per Romans 11 when they see the deliverer coming out of Zion, all Israel alive at that time will be saved - not just 144,000.

 

[Curtis]

Another, G2R, claims it is a "fairy tale," and now it is "wishful thinking"?!:

"At Best" Scriptural Evidence has been presented, here: #554 and here: #565

The rapture is mid trib, pre wrath, pre mark, and premillennial.

 

[Curtis]

So there's gonna be two kingdoms, one in Heaven and on earth is that what you're saying ?

Oh and what would you have me do with the below verse

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Does the above not state that New Jerusalem comes down to earth?

And don’t forget Revelation 3:12

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

There’s not a kingdom gospel offered only to Jews and a grace gospel given to the gentiles, there is one gospel of the kingdom, offered first to the Jew, and then to the gentiles.

All Gods adopted children will be in the eternal kingdom on the new earth, in the city New Jerusalem.

 

[Curtis]

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul(meaning the Law which came LATER never did away with THE PROMISE), that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

This passage states that the law of Moses was given 430 years after Abraham, and that it, the law of Moses, does not negate the covenant God gave to Abraham, which is absolutely true.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the old covenant, which most definitely included the law of Moses, is defunct, replaced by the promise Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah, which took effect at the death of Jesus.

And it’s a fact that it, the law of Moses, was a marriage covenant with Israel that ended when God divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3:8.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The rapture is mid trib, pre wrath, pre mark, and premillennial.

Curtis, just my opinion on your reply. I see the resurrection of the dead as:
Post TB (instead of mid TB) Matthew 24:29-31 describes Christ appearing “after the tribulation of those days”, not in the middle of it.

Pre-Wrath: We’ll, yes, kind of. All eschatological theories believe those adopted to Christ will not endure his wrath. That is not the same as seeing his wrath. But our change will happen before his outpoured wrath begins.

Post-Mark: I would not agree with Pre-Mark, let me explain why. 2 Thess 2:1-3 explains the man of sin comes before the gathering to him. Secondly, Rev 14:9-10 is a warning. The messenger says if you don’t take the mark, wrath will not harm you. How can you be in wrath when the mark comes about if you don’t take it? That wouldn’t align with the messengers warning. Thirdly, Luke 18:30 says in the world to come, everlasting life. Not in this world, not in Daniel’s week when things are collapsing. But the world to come when Christ reigns. Matthew 25:31;34;46 Christ comes back and sits on his throne (reigning), He then lets the just enter the kingdom and They go to eternal life. Isa 25:6-12 Death is swallowed up in victory (our change) in his mountain (millennial kingdom).

 

[Curtis]

Curtis, just my opinion on your reply. I see the resurrection of the dead as:
Post TB (instead of mid TB) Matthew 24:29-31 describes Christ appearing “after the tribulation of those days”, not in the middle of it.

Pre-Wrath: We’ll, yes, kind of. All eschatological theories believe those adopted to Christ will not endure his wrath. That is not the same as seeing his wrath. But our change will happen before his outpoured wrath begins.

Post-Mark: I would not agree with Pre-Mark, let me explain why. 2 Thess 2:1-3 explains the man of sin comes before the gathering to him. Secondly, Rev 14:9-10 is a warning. The messenger says if you don’t take the mark, wrath will not harm you. How can you be in wrath when the mark comes about if you don’t take it? That wouldn’t align with the messengers warning. Thirdly, Luke 18:30 says in the world to come, everlasting life. Not in this world, not in Daniel’s week when things are collapsing. But the world to come when Christ reigns. Matthew 25:31;34;46 Christ comes back and sits on his throne (reigning), He then lets the just enter the kingdom and They go to eternal life. Isa 25:6-12 Death is swallowed up in victory (our change) in his mountain (millennial kingdom).

Matthew 24 has the abomination of desolation event in verse 15, (which is mid trib, i e, the middle of Daniels 70th week) followed by the day of the Lord in verse 29, then the rapture in verses 30-31..

The tribulation is in two halves : general tribulation, i e, THE tribulation, followed by the GREAT tribulation.

Jesus says in Matthew 24, after THE tribulation of those days - the first half - then comes the abomination of desolation event in verse 15.

After He describes the (mid trib);rapture in verses 30-31, He adds THEN there shall be GREAT tribulation, which is the last half.

So Jesus describes THE tribulation (the first 3 1/2 years) followed by the mid trib abomination of desolation in 24:15, the rapture and then the GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period.

Thus the rapture is mid trib, pre mark, pre wrath, and premillennial.

The mark is given for 42 months, which is 3.5 years, which is 1260 days, during the great tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

Matthew 24 has the abomination of desolation event in verse 15, (which is mid trib, i e, the middle of Daniels 70th week) followed by the day of the Lord in verse 29, then the rapture in verses 30-31..

The tribulation is in two halves : general tribulation, i e, THE tribulation, followed by the GREAT tribulation.

Wrong. There is only one last period of tribulation. The entire thing is called the Great Tribulation and it is only 42 months. The years leading up to it are not a tribulation.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Matthew 24 has the abomination of desolation event in verse 15, (which is mid trib, i e, the middle of Daniels 70th week) followed by the day of the Lord in verse 29, then the rapture in verses 30-31..

The tribulation is in two halves : general tribulation, i e, THE tribulation, followed by the GREAT tribulation.

You are saying it is in the middle of tribulation. I am not. Tribulation has been against the people of God for over 3k years. I don't know how you believe in a 2 halved tribulation lasting from before 1k BC to the present...

So Jesus describes THE tribulation (the first 3 1/2 years) followed by the mid trib abomination of desolation in 24:15, the rapture and then the GREAT TRIBULATION, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period.

Why are you splitting Daniel's 70th week by 2 weird tribulation periods? Let me ask this, if the AoD is the mid point as you say it is, how is there terrible times BEFORE it (encompassing the first 3.5 years) if we are told about peace and safety? Or that before the wrath, people are eating and drinking, marrying and building? Where does scripture say that the first 3.5 years of a 7 year period will be terrible, persecuting, wrathful etc? Because I do not know any verse nor am I familiar with any scholar/book writer on any eschatological sense whether Pre-TB or Pre-Wrath that can show this. It is a really strange argument. To say jesus describes it the way you say it....I wouldn't put words into his mouth. How is the great tribulation the last 3.5 years if the 6th seal event and the trumpets come after it? There would need to be more time in the timeline don't ya think?

As far as the timing goes...3.5 years, 42Mos and 1260 days...yes they all equal the same amount but WHY would John be given different numbers in the spirit unless they might mean something we are not considering....why shouldnt they all read 1,260 days or perhaps they all read 42 mo's..

 

[Curtis]

Wrong. There is only one last period of tribulation. The entire thing is called the Great Tribulation and it is only 42 months. The years leading up to it are not a tribulation.

You are exactly wrong.

Daniels missing 70th week/7 Year’s, is not half a week, but a full week.

The great tribulation occurs mid way through the 70th week7 Year’s, when the man/beast we call the antichrist, is possessed by Satan, then kills the two witnesses (who prophesied 1260 days, which is 3.5 years, and also is 42 months) during the first half of the tribulation, and is given power to make war on the saints and overcome them, and to give the mark for 42 months, which is the last half of the 7 years.

 

[Curtis]

You are saying it is in the middle of tribulation. I am not. Tribulation has been against the people of God for over 3k years. I don't know how you believe in a 2 halved tribulation lasting from before 1k BC to the present...


Why are you splitting Daniel's 70th week by 2 weird tribulation periods? Let me ask this, if the AoD is the mid point as you say it is, how is there terrible times BEFORE it (encompassing the first 3.5 years) if we are told about peace and safety? Or that before the wrath, people are eating and drinking, marrying and building? Where does scripture say that the first 3.5 years of a 7 year period will be terrible, persecuting, wrathful etc? Because I do not know any verse nor am I familiar with any scholar/book writer on any eschatological sense whether Pre-TB or Pre-Wrath that can show this. It is a really strange argument. To say jesus describes it the way you say it....I wouldn't put words into his mouth. How is the great tribulation the last 3.5 years if the 6th seal event and the trumpets come after it? There would need to be more time in the timeline don't ya think?

As far as the timing goes...3.5 years, 42Mos and 1260 days...yes they all equal the same amount but WHY would John be given different numbers in the spirit unless they might mean something we are not considering....why shouldnt they all read 1,260 days or perhaps they all read 42 mo's..

The first half is called simply THE tribulation, because though the antichrist is on the scene and consolidating his rule over the world, there is no mark being given, and the war against the saints hasn’t started yet.

It’s not two tribulations, it’s one 7 year tribulation, one full week of Daniels 70th week that has a demarcation line at the middle, which is when Satan is cast down to the earth out of the lowest heaven, in Revelation 12, possesses the beast we call the antichrist, who has been killed and rises from the dead full of satanic power, and kills the two witnesses who’ve prophesied for 1260 days (3.5 years), makes war on the saints and overcomes them, then gives the mark for 42 months (3.5 years).

Revelation 12 is the mid trib abomination of desolation event that occurs in the middle of Daniels 70th week, and therefore is the middle of the tribulation, where Israel flees into the desert, as Jesus warned to do, where they are kept safe for 1260 days, which is 3.5 years, during the last half of the 7 years.

It is when Satan is cast out of heaven and possesses the beast we call the antichrist that the really evil stuff happens.