The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

I see this the same way.

I merely wanted to point out that there is not a time period in the Bible that is called "the tribulation", as if there was only one. But there IS the time that Jesus characterized that there would be great tribulation, greater than any other.

The criticism was that there isn't a seven year time called the tribulation, I point out there isn't any period called that, only characterized as that, and we should pay attention to details.

Much love!

I understand. However, God's Word actually does define that "great tribulation" as being a specific period different from all other times of tribulation...

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

So we can... say 'the' tribulation as a specific point in time all we want when referring to that period Jesus showed as a major Sign of the very end of this world. God allows the devil and his children to deceive us if that's what we want, and they have tried to muddy the waters about that specific "great tribulation" event for the very end of this world, just as they have also done with falsely preaching there is no singular Antichrist coming to play Christ in our near future.

 

[marks]

I understand. However, God's Word actually does define that "great tribulation" as being a specific period different from all other times of tribulation...

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Dan 12:1
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

So we can... say 'the' tribulation as a specific point in time all we want when referring to that period Jesus showed as a major Sign of the very end of this world. God allows the devil and his children to deceive us if that's what we want, and they have tried to muddy the waters about that specific "great tribulation" event for the very end of this world, just as they have also done with falsely preaching there is no singular Antichrist coming to play Christ in our near future.

Again, I agree with this.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I see this the same way.

I merely wanted to point out that there is not a time period in the Bible that is called "the tribulation", as if there was only one. But there IS the time that Jesus characterized that there would be great tribulation, greater than any other.

The criticism was that there isn't a seven year time called the tribulation, I point out there isn't any period called that, only characterized as that, and we should pay attention to details.

Much love!

Did Jesus define "great?" Is the GT great in intensity or duration?

 

[marks]

Did Jesus define "great?"

No, He merely used the word.

As to the question whether this speaks of degree or duration, the time words used in the passage refer to when it happens, not how long, and compares it to the rest of history until that time, so my thinking is that we should read "megas" in its basic sense of "great". So degree.

Jesus even added that the days will be truncated, and if they weren't truncated, no flesh would survive. So again, I'm thinking degree.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, He merely used the word.

As to the question whether this speaks of degree or duration, the time words used in the passage refer to when it happens, not how long, and compares it to the rest of history until that time, so my thinking is that we should read "megas" in its basic sense of "great". So degree.

Jesus even added that the days will be truncated, and if they weren't truncated, no flesh would survive. So again, I'm thinking degree.

Much love!

Interesting. I was thinking the opposite way. In my mind, if the amount of days is at stake i.e. the number of days is cut short, then any further days would result in the destruction of all flesh. This would mean "great" = lots of days, which if allowed to continue more days, would be too long.

I understand your point about intensity. The same thing also applies in that case. But the number of days doesn't seem to make a difference with regard to intensity. After all, how long did it take to destroy the earth with a flood?

But maybe you are right.

 

[marks]

Interesting. I was thinking the opposite way. In my mind, if the amount of days is at stake i.e. the number of days is cut short, then any further days would result in the destruction of all flesh. This would mean "great" = lots of days, which if allowed to continue more days, would be too long.

I understand your point about intensity. The same thing also applies in that case. But the number of days doesn't seem to make a difference with regard to intensity. After all, how long did it take to destroy the earth with a flood?

But maybe you are right.

That's an interesting comparison, since God also limited the destruction so "some flesh" would survive, but not by limiting the destructive power of the flood, instead by insulating 8 persons from it's power.

Perhaps a relevant question would be to ask, when Jesus said, "and then the end shall come", when is that?

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

I don't know now. Perhaps I misunderstood. I went back to review your post and frankly I agree with what you said there. But I am confused as to why you disagreed with me. Why did you say I was wrong? Can you clarify?

(I need more coffee! )

You said, "What you call the "Great Tribulation", I would call "The Day of the Lord." "

The Great Tribulation is not the day of the Lord.

 

[Enoch111]

The Great Tribulation is not the day of the Lord.

Of course it is. Try to connect the dots.

 

[ewq1938]

Did Jesus define "great?" Is the GT great in intensity or duration?

Intensity because he said it was going to be shorter than originally planned. He said no flesh would survive a long tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course it is. Try to connect the dots.

No, it's 42 months of the wrath of satan persecuting the Church. The day of the Lord is at the 7th trump.

 

[No Pre-TB]

I'm having a hard time understand some of the debates on the great tribulation. First off, Christ said in Matthew 24:21,

21For then shall be great tribulation

And he spoke this in reference to when they would see the abomination of desolation. So, the AoD, according to Christ, precedes the great tribulation. But then later on, he says,

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days

And in this context, he is referring back to verse 21, the great tribulation of those days. He then talks about stars falling from heaven, mentions heaven and earth passing away and he talks about a flood. A poorly constructed chart would look like:

AoD --> Great Tribulation --> Stars falling from heaven to earth.

Now people here suggest the great tribulation is at the end of Daniel's week and give it 3.5 years. But let me ask you, if it's at the end and it was 3.5 years, how does it fit in Revelation when we are told in Revelation 7:14 (regarding the great innumerable people),

These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Wouldn't a construct look like this:

AoD --> Great Tribulation --> Stars falling from heaven to earth (6th seal) --> these are they that come out of great tribulation

And if that is true, the 144k had just been sealed and God hasnt had his angel cast fire to earth yet in the 1st Trumpet. Basically, the idea that the great tribulation is at the end of a week...how is that possible if the Trumpets havent even sounded yet? Even the 2 witnesses, they havent even started their testimony yet because they die before the 7th trumpet is blown and they have 42 mo's to preach!

By saying the great tribulation is at the end and it last 3.5 years, you have to figure out how that is when Christ says it's before the stars fall from heaven to earth (6th seal), before those that come out of Great triB (Rev 7) and still leave another 42 mos for the 2 witnesses that must die right before the 7th trumpet is blown.

 

[marks]

Now people here suggest the great tribulation is at the end of Daniel's week and give it 3.5 years. But let me ask you, if it's at the end and it was 3.5 years, how does it fit in Revelation when we are told in Revelation 7:14 (regarding the great innumerable people),

These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Are you familiar with how John wrote using "ek" and "apo"? If not, I suggest you look at every place he uses those words, and then compare those places to their parallel passages (the ones that have such), and see what you will find.

I promise you a very interesting study!

Much love!

 

[marks]

A brief outline . . .

7 Seals are opened.
The 70th week begins.
7 Trumpets are sounded.
Two witnesses prophesy.
144,000 Jews go town to town through Israel.

Satan is cast from heaven.
The man of sin sits in the temple.
The beast demands worship.
144,000 are translated into heaven.
The Jews flee to the wilderness.
The witnesses are killed, then rise and ascend.

The greatest tribulation begins.
The 7 bowls are poured out.
Babylon is remembered.
The armies of earth are gathered.

Jesus returns.
The Jews are regathered to Israel.
The beast is tossed into the lake of fire, his armies destroyed.
Jesus takes His throne.
The gentiles are gathered and judged.
The OT saints are raised, and the martyrs are raised.
The wedding feast begins.
The 12 Apostles judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
David is king over them.
Jesus is King of Kings, ruling from Jerusalem.

After 1000 years, Satan deceives the nations of the earth, which are then destroyed.
Heaven and earth flee.
The dead are judged.

"Behold, I make all things new!"

Much love!

 

[marks]

Now people here suggest the great tribulation is at the end of Daniel's week and give it 3.5 years. But let me ask you, if it's at the end and it was 3.5 years, how does it fit in Revelation when we are told in Revelation 7:14 (regarding the great innumerable people),

These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Wouldn't a construct look like this:

AoD --> Great Tribulation --> Stars falling from heaven to earth (6th seal) --> these are they that come out of great tribulation

And if that is true, the 144k had just been sealed and God hasnt had his angel cast fire to earth yet in the 1st Trumpet. Basically, the idea that the great tribulation is at the end of a week...how is that possible if the Trumpets havent even sounded yet? Even the 2 witnesses, they havent even started their testimony yet because they die before the 7th trumpet is blown and they have 42 mo's to preach!

You really are asking the right question here.

How indeed is this seeming "end of tribulation" occurrance happening way up here at the beginning?

This is to encourage that "ek" "apo" study . . .



Much love!

 

[marks]

By saying the great tribulation is at the end and it last 3.5 years, you have to figure out how that is when Christ says it's before the stars fall from heaven to earth (6th seal),

Revelation 6:12-13 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24:29 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Are these the same?

Is the "blood moon" the same as a lightless moon? Before the Day of the LORD, Joel prophesied the sun darkened, and the moon into blood, same as the 6th seal.

Joel 2:30-31 KJV
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Isaiah, prophesying the Day of the LORD, says,

Isaiah 13:9-10 KJV
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Which is the same as Jesus prophesied.

If we are to let all the passages speak for themselves, we have two clearly defined events, one at the beginning, and one at the end of the 70th week, one characterized by a blood moon, and one by a lightless moon (there are other differences, we can go more into detail if you like).

Much love!

 

[marks]

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

"were moved out of their places", that is, they moved their location.

Revelation 16:17-20 KJV
17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

"were not found" that is, they were gone.

 

[Davy]

Of course it is. Try to connect the dots.

No, the time of "great tribulation" is not... the "day of the Lord".

It is your Pre-trib Rapture preachers that 'try'... to move the "day of the Lord" backwards into the tribulation time, and they go against the written Scripture when they do that. They don't even know what the "day of the Lord" is about. Why do they try to do that? Because they want to try and support their false pre-trib rapture theory of being raptured out prior to the tribulation.

Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 verifies the end of this present world by God's consuming fire on the "day of the Lord". Can't get any more solid proof than that which Biblically shows the "day of the Lord" happens on the FINAL DAY of this world.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

"were moved out of their places", that is, they moved their location.

Revelation 16:17-20 KJV
17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

"were not found" that is, they were gone.

It's the same events. The 6th seal describes the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved, the vials of wrath pour when the second coming starts, so the 7th vial is the same timeframe as the 6th seal so what is happening to the islands and mountains is the same thing using slightly different language. The key is; are these literal events or are the mountains and islands metaphors?

 

[Timtofly]

Of course it is. Try to connect the dots.

It is the start. The actual day of the Lord has no sin, sinners, death by sin, nor Satan. So the final harvest is painful because all of Adam's flesh will die. The salvation is of the soul. The flesh is saved and changed by the Atonement.

It is after the Second Coming, because Christ the Prince to come brings His angels to harvest all the near 8 billion souls on earth. 2 billion in the Seals, 2 billion in the Trumpets, 2 billion in the Thunders, and then the redeemed.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm having a hard time understand some of the debates on the great tribulation. First off, Christ said in Matthew 24:21,

21For then shall be great tribulation

And he spoke this in reference to when they would see the abomination of desolation. So, the AoD, according to Christ, precedes the great tribulation. But then later on, he says,

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days

And in this context, he is referring back to verse 21, the great tribulation of those days. He then talks about stars falling from heaven, mentions heaven and earth passing away and he talks about a flood. A poorly constructed chart would look like:

AoD --> Great Tribulation --> Stars falling from heaven to earth.

Now people here suggest the great tribulation is at the end of Daniel's week and give it 3.5 years. But let me ask you, if it's at the end and it was 3.5 years, how does it fit in Revelation when we are told in Revelation 7:14 (regarding the great innumerable people),

These are they which came out of great tribulation,

Wouldn't a construct look like this:

AoD --> Great Tribulation --> Stars falling from heaven to earth (6th seal) --> these are they that come out of great tribulation

And if that is true, the 144k had just been sealed and God hasnt had his angel cast fire to earth yet in the 1st Trumpet. Basically, the idea that the great tribulation is at the end of a week...how is that possible if the Trumpets havent even sounded yet? Even the 2 witnesses, they havent even started their testimony yet because they die before the 7th trumpet is blown and they have 42 mo's to preach!

By saying the great tribulation is at the end and it last 3.5 years, you have to figure out how that is when Christ says it's before the stars fall from heaven to earth (6th seal), before those that come out of Great triB (Rev 7) and still leave another 42 mos for the 2 witnesses that must die right before the 7th trumpet is blown.

You left out the fig tree blooming after the Second Coming.

If you use Revelation as a guide then Matthew 24 is in reverse order. If you use the OD as a guide, then people jumble up Revelation, and "fix it", to fit their variety of eschatology.

According to Revelation the 42 months of the AoD is last: Revelation 13,15-19.

Before the 7th Trumpet, are 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders per Revelation 8-11. Revelation 10-12 cover the 7th Trumpet. But the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by Revelation 13. To me the Trumpet and Thunder soundings are the final harvest when Christ the Prince and His angels are here per Matthew 13, Matthew 24:29-31, Paul mentioned a Trumpet and archangel, and then Revelation 6 and the 6th Seal. So the Second Coming has to happen first, so this harvest works, even prior to Satan's "turn" in the vineyard. Because the blooming of the fig tree signified the return of Israel as a nation and the winding down of the Gospel being spread by the church.

The church is removed because they have entered into their rest. The time for the final harvest is at hand. No one can know when the Second Coming will happen. The time of the Seals is extended for the salvation opportunity for all flesh. The time of the Trumpets and Thunders keeps getting shorter.