The Pre-Trib Rapture

[ewq1938]

I don't think Jesus meant to say that the number of days was scheduled to run a certain period of time but then the number of days was reduced.

Why then did he literally say the time of the Great Tribulation would be reduced?

I think he is saying that had the number of days been longer no flesh would remain alive.

That's exactly what he said and why he shortened the Great Tribulation.

It isn't that your proposal won't work. It's just that God isn't like that. He always knows the outcome of his plans. He knows how many days to schedule so that the number of days won't result in an extinction event. He knows that in advance, so he doesn't need to change his plans on the fly, like we would.

That's wrong. God has changed his mind on many things and has been shocked/disappointed at how some things turned out. This is long but it's worth reading:


Let's put an end to the flawed concept that because God doesn't change that this must somehow mean God never changes his mind. This is false:


Consider King Hezekiah. God told him to get his house in order because he was about to die. Hezekiah begged the Lord to let him live, so He gave him 15 more years. God did not change, but God changed his mind! Two very different things!

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Ex 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
NASB


Amos 7:1 Thus the Lord GOD showed me, and behold, He was forming a locust-swarm when the spring crop began to sprout. And behold, the spring crop was after the king's mowing.
2 And it came about, when it had finished eating the vegetation of the land, that I said, "Lord GOD, please pardon! How can Jacob stand, For he is small?"
3 The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.
4 ¶Thus the Lord GOD showed me, and behold, the Lord GOD was calling to contend with them by fire, and it consumed the great deep and began to consume the farm land.
5 Then I said, "Lord GOD, please stop! How can Jacob stand, for he is small?"
6 The LORD changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.
7 ¶Thus He showed me, and behold, the Lord was standing by a vertical wall, with a plumb line in His hand.
8 And the LORD said to me, "What do you see, Amos?" And I said, "A plumb line." Then the Lord said, "Behold I am about to put a plumb line In the midst of My people Israel. I will spare them no longer.


Another time God changed his mind was regarding the Israelites and the golden calf. God initially was going to destroy them and make a new nation of people from the descendants of Moses instead but Moses intervened and God changed His mind again and allowed the people of Israel to live.



Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.



Here God feels like he should not have created mankind. He regrets the decision and is very upset over it. If God didn't change his mind he would not have to regret any decisions. It also shows that he didn't know that man would have become so wicked otherwise he wouldn't have made man.




Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

"He dug it all around, removed its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it and also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, but it produced only worthless ones" (Isa. 5:2).

Here God clearly expected one thing but another thing occurred proving in this particular situation showing he did not know what would occur.


God can choose to know the future or choose not to as in the above example.


Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.


How does an all knowing God not remember sins? Wouldn't that be a contradiction?


For example, his knowledge of the future is "iffy" in the case of Sodom. "If I find... " Also, Jer. 18 states that God warns, then waits to see what happens, before taking action. Now, if God know the future ahead of time, he would not have to wait around to see what is going to happen.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's going to kill everyone and everything except fish/sealife.



It is only after that thought does he give grace to one man and his family:

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

That's God changing his mind to spare one family and a lot of animals because originally he feels like destroying all and saving none.


It's the same with the sister story of Lot. Originally he was going to kill all, but Abraham intervenes and tries to get God to spare everyone if a certain number of righteous people were found. Enough wasn't found but God does decide to, again, spare one man and his family.

Okay, persecution is a bit different than death, isn't it? Not every persecuted Christ becomes a martyr, yes?

Of course.

But where does the Bible say that?

The end of Revelation 12, and all of Revelation 13.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why then did he literally say the time of the Great Tribulation would be reduced?

Well, we can interpret it that way, I agree. But it seems to me that Jesus is expressing a hypothetical situation, "if the days were not cut short", not that they were ever intended to run longer.

That's exactly what he said and why he shortened the Great Tribulation.

I think we can both agree that if the GT ran beyond a certain point, all flesh would be lost. The question is whether Jesus is talking about the amount of days or the intensity of the days. And I think both interpretations are plausible. I used to think that Jesus was talking about the intensity of the days, but now I am not sure. Here is why.

In my previous post, I postulated that the GT has lasted for almost 1900 years to this point. I base this on Revelation 7:9-16, wherein John describes "a great multitude which no one could count . . . who come out of the great tribulation." This seems to describe all of those who believe in Jesus Christ, including everyone beginning with the stoning of Steven until today. (If I am wrong I don't know why.)

Just this morning, while in the shower, I began to wonder about how to categorize the Jewish pogroms and the holocaust. This can also be classified as a Great Tribulation. And this takes me back to our discussion about the meaning of "great" as it pertains to the GT. If I factor in Jewish persecution (e.g. the holocaust) I am compelled to interpret the GT as both an extended period of time that grows with intensity toward the end. I wonder what you think about that?

That's wrong. God has changed his mind on many things and has been shocked/disappointed at how some things turned out.

Okay, I see your point. But I don't see an explicit statement that God will change his mind about the survival of the human race, i.e. he planned on bringing an end to humanity but changed his mind. In fact, he explicitly says that Israel would last forever in Jeremiah 31:35-36.

Also, I appreciate your passage from Amos 7. I quote a section of it in my latest video. "Days of the Sun of Man."

With regard to Revelation 12 and 13, I need to study these a bit more. Thanks for sending me there.





The end of Revelation 12, and all of Revelation 13.[/QUOTE]

 

[BarneyFife]

The season of distress and anguish before us will require a faith that can endure weariness, delay, and hunger, a faith that will not faint though severely tried. Jacob's victory is an evidence of the power of importunate prayer. All who will lay hold of God's promises, as he did, will succeed as he succeeded. Wrestling with God—how few know what it is! When waves of despair sweep over the suppliant, how few cling with faith to the promises of God. Fearful sights of a supernatural character will soon be revealed in the heavens, in token of the power of miracle-working demons. Spirits of devils will go forth to the “kings of the earth” and to the whole world, to urge them to unite with Satan in his last struggle against the government of heaven. Persons will arise pretending to be Christ Himself. They will perform miracles of healing and profess to have revelations from heaven contradicting the Scriptures.

As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long looked to the Saviour's advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. Satan will manifest himself as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God in the Revelation. Revelation 1:13-15. The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out, “Christ has come!” The people prostrate themselves before him. He lifts up his hands and blesses them. His voice is soft, yet full of melody. In compassionate tones he presents some of the same heavenly truths the Saviour uttered. He heals diseases, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday. He declares that those who keep holy the seventh day are blaspheming his name. This is the strong, almost overmastering delusion. Multitudes give heed to sorceries, saying, This is “the great power of God.” Acts 8:10.

But the people of God will not be misled. The teachings of this false christ are not in accordance with the Scriptures. His blessing is pronounced upon the worshipers of the beast and his image, the very class on whom the Bible declares that God's unmingled wrath shall be poured out. Furthermore, Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ's advent. The Saviour has warned His people against deception on this point. “There shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.... Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:24-27. See also Matthew 25:31; Revelation 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. This coming, there is no possibility of counterfeiting. It will be witnessed by the whole world. Only diligent students of the Scriptures who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His Word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible, and the Bible only?

When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be in different lands a simultaneous movement for their destruction. As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to strike in one night a decisive blow which shall silence dissent and reproof. The people of God—some in prison cells, some in forests and mountains—plead for divine protection. Armed men, urged on by evil angels, are preparing for the work of death. Now, in the hour of utmost extremity, God will interpose: “Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth ... to come into the mountain of the Lord, to the mighty One of Israel. And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.” Isaiah 30:29, 30. Throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when a dense blackness, deeper than night, falls on the earth. Then a rainbow spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are arrested. The objects of their rage are forgotten. They gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its brightness. By the people of God a voice is heard, saying, “Look up.” Like Stephen, the early Christian martyr, they look up and see the glory of God and the Son of man on His throne. See Acts 7:55, 56. They discern the marks of His humiliation, and hear the request, “I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am.” John 17:24. A voice is heard saying, “They come, holy, harmless, and undefiled! They have kept the word of my patience.”

 

[BarneyFife]

At midnight God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow. The wicked look with terror on the scene, while the righteous behold the tokens of their deliverance. In the midst of the angry heavens is one clear space of indescribable glory whence comes the voice of God like the sound of many waters, saying, “It is done!” Revelation 16:17. That voice shakes the heavens and the earth. There is a mighty earthquake, “such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.” Revelation 16:18. Ragged rocks are scattered on every side. The sea is lashed into fury. There is heard the shriek of a hurricane like the voice of demons. The earth's surface is breaking up. Its very foundations seem to be giving way. Seaports that have become like Sodom for wickedness are swallowed up by the angry waters. “Babylon the great” has come in remembrance before God, “to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.” Revelation 16:19. Great hailstones do their work of destruction. Proud cities are laid low. Lordly palaces on which men have lavished their wealth crumble before their eyes. Prison walls are rent asunder, and God's people are set free. Graves are opened, and “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth ... awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” “They also which pierced him,” those that derided Christ's dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of His truth, are raised to see the honor placed on the loyal and obedient. Daniel 12:2; Revelation 1:7. Fierce lightnings envelop the earth in a sheet of flame. Above the thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. Those who were boastful and defiant, cruel to God's commandment-keeping people, now shudder in fear. Demons tremble while men are supplicating for mercy.

Said the prophet Isaiah: “In that day a man shall cast the idols of his silver, and the idols of his gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.” Isaiah 2:20, 21. Those who have sacrificed all for Christ are now secure. Before the world and in the face of death they have evinced their fidelity to Him who died for them. Their faces, so lately pale and haggard, are now aglow with wonder. Their voices rise in triumphant song: “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.” Psalm 46:1-3. While these words of holy trust ascend to God, the glory of the celestial city streams from the gates ajar. Then there appears against the sky a hand holding two tables of stone. That holy law, proclaimed from Sinai, is now revealed as the rule of judgment. The words are so plain that all can read them. Memory is aroused. The darkness of superstition and heresy is swept from every mind. It is impossible to describe the horror and despair of those who have trampled upon God's law. To secure the favor of the world, they set aside its precepts and taught others to transgress. Now they are condemned by that law which they have despised. They see that they are without excuse. The enemies of God's law have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to Paradise. How great is the responsibility of men in holy office, how terrible the results of their unfaithfulness!

The voice of God is heard declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The Israel of God stand listening, their countenances lighted up with His glory. Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour. In solemn silence the people of God gaze upon it as it draws nearer, until it is a great white cloud, its base a glory like consuming fire, and above it the rainbow of the covenant. Not now a “Man of sorrows,” Jesus rides forth as a mighty conqueror. Holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him, “ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.” Every eye beholds the Prince of life. A diadem of glory rests on His brow. His countenance outshines the noonday sun. “And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords.” Revelation 19:16. The King of kings descends upon the cloud, wrapped in flaming fire. The earth trembles before Him: “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.” Psalm 50:3, 4. “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Revelation 6:15-17. Derisive jests have ceased, lying lips hushed. Nought is heard but the voice of prayer and the sound of weeping.

The wicked pray to be buried beneath the rocks rather than meet the face of Him whom they have despised. That voice which penetrates the ear of the dead, they know. How often have its tender tones called them to repentance. How often has it been heard in the entreaties of a friend, a brother, a Redeemer. That voice awakens memories of warnings despised and invitations refused. There are those who mocked Christ in His humiliation. He declared: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.” Matthew 26:64. Now they behold Him in His glory; they are yet to see Him sitting on the right hand of power. There is the haughty Herod who jeered at His royal title. There are the men who placed upon His brow the thorny crown and in His hand the mimic scepter—those who bowed before Him in blasphemous mockery, who spat upon the Prince of life. They seek to flee from His presence. Those who drove the nails through His hands and feet behold these marks with terror and remorse. With awful distinctness priests and rulers recall the events of Calvary, how, wagging their heads in satanic exultation, they exclaimed, “He saved others; himself he cannot save.” Matthew 27:42. Louder than the shout, “Crucify him, crucify him!” which rang through Jerusalem, swells the despairing wail, “He is the Son of God!” They seek to flee from the presence of the King of kings. In the lives of all who reject truth there are moments when conscience awakens, when the soul is harassed with vain regrets. But what are these compared with the remorse of that day! In the midst of their terror they hear the voices of the saints exclaiming: “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us.” Isaiah 25:9.

 

[BarneyFife]

The voice of the Son of God calls forth the sleeping saints. Throughout the earth the dead shall hear that voice, and they that hear shall live, a great army of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. From the prison house of death they come, clothed with immortal glory, crying: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” 1 Corinthians 15:55. All come forth from their graves the same in stature as when they entered the tomb. But all arise with the freshness and vigor of eternal youth. Christ came to restore that which had been lost. He will change our vile bodies and fashion them like unto His glorious body. The mortal, corruptible form, once polluted with sin, becomes perfect, beautiful and immortal. Blemishes and deformities are left in the grave. The redeemed will “grow up” (Malachi 4:2) to the full stature of the race in its primeval glory, the last lingering traces of the curse of sin removed. Christ's faithful ones will in mind and soul and body reflect the perfect image of their Lord. The living righteous are changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” At the voice of God they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. Angels “gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:31. Little children are borne to their mothers' arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the city of God.

Throughout the unnumbered host of the redeemed every glance is fixed upon Jesus. Every eye beholds His glory whose “visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men.” Isaiah 52:14. Upon the heads of the overcomers Jesus places the crown of glory. For each there is a crown bearing his own “new name” (Revelation 2:17) and the inscription, “Holiness to the Lord.” In every hand are placed the victor's palm and the shining harp. Then, as the commanding angels strike the note, every hand sweeps the strings with skillful touch in rich, melodious strains. Each voice is raised in grateful praise: “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.” Revelation 1:5, 6. Before the ransomed throng is the Holy City. Jesus opens the gates, and the nations that have kept the truth enter in. Then His voice is heard, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” Matthew 25:34. Christ presents to the Father the purchase of His blood, declaring: “Here am I, and the children whom thou hast given me.” “Those that thou gavest me I have kept.” Hebrews 2:13; John 17:12. Oh, the rapture of that hour when the infinite Father, looking upon the ransomed, shall behold His image, sin's blight removed, and the human once more in harmony with the divine! The Saviour's joy is in seeing, in the kingdom of glory, the souls saved by His agony and humiliation. The redeemed will be sharers in His joy; they behold those won through their prayers, labors, and loving sacrifice. Gladness will fill their hearts when they see that one has gained others, and these still others.

As the ransomed are welcomed to the city of God, there rings out an exultant cry. The two Adams are about to meet. The Son of God is to receive the father of our race—whom He created, who sinned, and for whose sin the marks of the crucifixion are on the Saviour's form. As Adam discerns the prints of the nails, in humiliation he casts himself at Christ's feet. The Saviour lifts him up and bids him look once more upon the Eden home from which he has so long been exiled. Adam's life was filled with sorrow. Every dying leaf, every victim of sacrifice, every stain upon man's purity, was a reminder of his sin. Terrible was the agony of remorse as he met the reproaches cast upon himself as the cause of sin. Faithfully did he repent of his sin, and he died in the hope of a resurrection. Now, through the atonement, Adam is reinstated. Transported with joy, he beholds the trees that were once his delight, whose fruit he himself had gathered in the days of his innocence. He sees the vines his own hands trained, the very flowers he once loved to care for. This is indeed Eden restored! The Saviour leads him to the tree of life and bids him eat. He beholds a multitude of his family redeemed. Then he casts his crown at the feet of Jesus and embraces the Redeemer. He touches the harp, and the vaults of heaven echo the triumphant song: “Worthy, worthy, is the Lamb that was slain.” Revelation 5:12. The family of Adam cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet as they bow in adoration. Angels wept at the fall of Adam and rejoiced when Jesus opened the grave for all who should believe on His name. Now they behold the work of redemption accomplished and unite their voices in praise.

Upon the “sea of glass as it were mingled with fire” are gathered the company that have “gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.” The hundred and forty and four thousand were redeemed from among men, and they sing “a new song,” the song of Moses and the Lamb. Revelation 15:2, 3. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song, for it is the song of an experience such as no other company ever had. “These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.” These, having been translated from among the living, are “the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” Revelation 14:4, 5. They passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. They “washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” “In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault” before God. “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.” Revelation 7:14; 14:5; 7:16, 17.

 

[BarneyFife]

Sorry for the spam.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, we can interpret it that way, I agree. But it seems to me that Jesus is expressing a hypothetical situation, "if the days were not cut short", not that they were ever intended to run longer.

It wasn't hypothetical. It was literal. OF the Great Tribulation was not shortened, no flesh would survive.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This shouldn't be misunderstood. It is clear the Great Tribulation was a certain length, God decided it was too long, so it will be shortened which is future tense language so the futre Great Tribulation will end up being shorter than originally intended.

I think we can both agree that if the GT ran beyond a certain point, all flesh would be lost. The question is whether Jesus is talking about the amount of days or the intensity of the days.

A period of time being SHORTENED is the amount. To make it less intensive other language is needed. He mentions days plural twice and those days will be shortened.

Just this morning, while in the shower, I began to wonder about how to categorize the Jewish pogroms and the holocaust. This can also be classified as a Great Tribulation. And this takes me back to our discussion about the meaning of "great" as it pertains to the GT. If I factor in Jewish persecution (e.g. the holocaust) I am compelled to interpret the GT as both an extended period of time that grows with intensity toward the end. I wonder what you think about that?

It contradicts everything Christ and the book of Revelation says about the Great Tribulation. It's persecution of Christians not Jews of Judaism and it's a shorty period of time not long.

 

[Davy]

And Christ's Book of Revelation reveals just what time the 'great tribulation' will be shortened to.

 

[BarneyFife]

It wasn't hypothetical. It was literal. OF the Great Tribulation was not shortened, no flesh would survive.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This shouldn't be misunderstood. It is clear the Great Tribulation was a certain length, God decided it was too long, so it will be shortened which is future tense language so the futre Great Tribulation will end up being shorter than originally intended.





A period of time being SHORTENED is the amount. To make it less intensive other language is needed. He mentions days plural twice and those days will be shortened.





It contradicts everything Christ and the book of Revelation says about the Great Tribulation. It's persecution of Christians not Jews of Judaism and it's a shorty period of time not long.

I'm pretty sure it'll seem long, tho.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It wasn't hypothetical. It was literal. OF the Great Tribulation was not shortened, no flesh would survive.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This shouldn't be misunderstood. It is clear the Great Tribulation was a certain length, God decided it was too long, so it will be shortened which is future tense language so the futre Great Tribulation will end up being shorter than originally intended.

It seems to me that you are assuming a prior plan that needs changing, which is an assumption not explicitly expressed in the text.

Have a great weekend!

 

[ewq1938]

It seems to me that you are assuming a prior plan that needs changing, which is an assumption not explicitly expressed in the text.

Have a great weekend!

I see it explicitly expressed in the text.


You too!

 

[No Pre-TB]

Why not share your view?

Much love!

I find it futile to discuss a view with people already opposed to searching it out because they’re lost in their own. Wish that wasn’t the case, but with men, it tends to be that way.

 

[No Pre-TB]

If I were to insert into that timeline when I understand the rapture to occur, it would be after the fifth seal is opened, and before the 7th seal is opened, and possibly at the time of that earthquake during the 7th seal, which I also think is the same earthquake in Ezekiel 38. And that the fire and brimstone that destorys the Gog/Magog invaders is the same as in the 1st trumpet.

Before the pandemic shut down our church, that was how we conducted our Bible studies, we'd discuss all the different aspects of people's interpretations, no time limits, no schedule, just, where is the Holy Spirit leading us. I miss that so!

I agree, it's hard to do a deep discussion on a forum. That's why I threw together that timeline, to give you a better idea of how I see things.

I find, though, that the real issue in understanding prophecy has more to do with soteriology and ecclesiology than eschatology. Or, that is, you need to have the same ecclesiology as someone else, or you won't be in agreement on eschatology.

I try to be consise, succinct, and not post those walls of text, I agree, that makes it worse. He said as he continues to type . . .

Much love!

Not to argue or set you up for failure, but in all sincerity, why do you think the resurrection will happen at or near the 7th seal? What verses speak to you that it is at that moment?

 

[ewq1938]

Not to argue or set you up for failure, but in all sincerity, why do you think the resurrection will happen at or near the 7th seal? What verses speak to you that it is at that moment?

He wrongly thinks the second coming happens when that seal is opened.

 

[Davy]

He wrongly thinks the second coming happens when that seal is opened.

We are actually being shown Jesus' coming on the 6th Seal, and also the time of His Wrath upon the wicked. So in reality, the 2nd coming is with the 6th Seal.

Why not with the 7th Seal? If we pay attention, we should notice that a time of silence of half an hour happens prior... to description of the 7 trumpets. That time of silence acts like a 'Selah' like the Pslams, as a rest and order to ponder (think).

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

The only time of that "great day of His wrath" is on the final day of this world when Jesus returns on the 7th Vial.

Another event there that marks that as the final day when Jesus returns is their saying, "hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne". We know that Lord Jesus is not sitting upon that throne, but that The Father is. Jesus ascended to the Right Hand of The Father's throne expecting. This means those who say that are SEEING The Father sitting upon His Throne in Heaven at that point. It means the Heavenly is opened up for all to see at that point.

Thus the 7th Seal acts as a time marker for the absolute end, thus the silence being a divider from the trumpets, because the 7th Trumpet also represents this same 'end' on the 6th Seal.

 

[ewq1938]

We are actually being shown Jesus' coming on the 6th Seal, and also the time of His Wrath upon the wicked. So in reality, the 2nd coming is with the 6th Seal.

Nope. John was just shown visions of the future trumpet events in each seal. The second coming happens long after the 6th seal is opened. He returns at the 7th trump. All seals are opened before any of the angels get their trumps:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

[Enoch111]

...but with men, it tends to be that way.

So women are automatically excluded. What a relief since the female of the species is more deadly than the male!

 

[No Pre-TB]

So women are automatically excluded. What a relief since the female of the species is more deadly than the male!

When I said “men”, it was generally meant “mankind”. I wasn’t referring to a specific sex. Just as someone refers to a car as a “she”, isn’t insisting the car’s sex is female. Christians shouldn’t try to bait Christians. If you were unsure, a better way to ask is, “what did you mean when you said” such and such.

 

[Davy]

Nope. John was just shown visions of the future trumpet events in each seal. The second coming happens long after the 6th seal is opened. He returns at the 7th trump. All seals are opened before any of the angels get their trumps:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Most of Christ's Revelation was shown to Apostle John by vision, so that idea cannot be used to try and move the timing of the events shown by what is to happen... in those events.

And within that 6th Seal event, we are shown the time of Christ's coming with the event of His cup of WRATH being poured out. We are even shown how those wicked will then see The Father on His Throne in Heaven! So cannot mistake what timing that is. Do you remember John said this...

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

That is what the 6th Seal (latter part) is showing the wicked are doing, wailing because of His coming.

What Christ's Revelation actually reveals is that His coming is on the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial (777). And Satan as the false-Messiah will come on the 6th Seal (1st part), 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666). That is grasped by understanding the event types on each Sign.

 

[No Pre-TB]

We are actually being shown Jesus' coming on the 6th Seal, and also the time of His Wrath upon the wicked. So in reality, the 2nd coming is with the 6th Seal.

Why not with the 7th Seal? If we pay attention, we should notice that a time of silence of half an hour happens prior... to description of the 7 trumpets. That time of silence acts like a 'Selah' like the Pslams, as a rest and order to ponder (think).

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

The only time of that "great day of His wrath" is on the final day of this world when Jesus returns on the 7th Vial.

Another event there that marks that as the final day when Jesus returns is their saying, "hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne". We know that Lord Jesus is not sitting upon that throne, but that The Father is. Jesus ascended to the Right Hand of The Father's throne expecting. This means those who say that are SEEING The Father sitting upon His Throne in Heaven at that point. It means the Heavenly is opened up for all to see at that point.

Thus the 7th Seal acts as a time marker for the absolute end, thus the silence being a divider from the trumpets, because the 7th Trumpet also represents this same 'end' on the 6th Seal.

First, Who is “we”?
Secondly, when Christ returns, he sits on his throne (Matthew 25:31) when the kingdoms of earth becomes his. (Revelation 11:15) That is the 7th Trumpet. I find it extremely difficult to say that of the 7th seal.

The silence you mentioned also describes a few things. Previously, we’d hear the words of the other seals when opened, “come and see”. Here, we don’t see this. Also, the words appear as thunder. Thunder is heard all throughout the land by all. Many OT scriptures use thunder as a description of laws, commands etc. Yet in this silence, there is no thunder. No one can hear what comes next, it comes silently as a surprise to those not carefully watching.

Zephaniah 1:7 and Zechariah 2:13 describe it as the Lord rises and there is silence because of his majesty on the day of his judgment. He is awakened and is about to bring forth changes. This is perhaps related to Isaiah 26:20-21 His children are protected while in the world, because they are children of the light; whereas those in darkness are met with changes that they cannot process because understanding spiritual things requires living by the spirit.