Jesus is Michael

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ReChoired

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Thank you, I will...but you must have had some thoughts regarding the scriptures I posted.....care to at least share?

The scriptures do not lie. How can Jesus be God if he needed angels to help him?

Even when he returns as judge, it is with the Angelic forces. (Matthew 25:31-32)
Sure I can answer from scripture, even with the question I had asked earlier.

Side note, Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB] equates Jesus Christ as the JEHOVAH God, the Son, who changes not, the same, even the same yesterday, to day and for ever, the very Helper and Comforter.

Hebrews 1:10 KJB - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Hebrews 1:11 KJB - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Side note:

The “And ...” [Hebrews 1:10 KJB] continues the expression of “But unto the Son he saith ...” [Hebrews 1:8 KJB], which means that Paul, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit Himself [Matthew 22:43; Mark 12:36; Acts 1:16; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is still citing the Old Testament passages, specifically those of David, in reference to the Father speaking to and about His Son, Jesus Christ:

Compare:

Psalms 102:12 KJB - But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

Side note, “... O LORD ...” [Psalms 102:12 KJB] is direct reference to JEHOVAH the Son, see Psalms 102:1,12,15,16,19,21,22 KJB:

Psalms 102:12 (102:13) HOT [read from Right to Left] -
ואתה יהוה לעולם תשׁב וזכרך לדר ודר׃

Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100], notice how it translates the Hebrew JEHOVAH into the Greek “κύριε”, “kurie” or English “LORD”, which is used to identify Jesus Christ throughout the New Testament.

Psalms 102:12 (101:13) LXX* - σὺ δέ, κύριε, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα μένεις, καὶ τὸ μνημόσυνόν σου εἰς γενεὰν καὶ γενεάν.

Consider carefully the importance of these texts, in what they are teaching, in that no one can say that Jesus is JEHOVAH [the Son], the “Lord”, but by the Holy Ghost, for a person of the 'Watch Tower', or 'Arian', or 'Unitarian', etc., may say that 'Jesus is lord', but they will not acknowledge Him as the LORD, JEHOVAH [the Son] – Deity – Eternal, I AM, Almighty God, etc, and nor do they keep the Ten Commandments [John 14:15; Exodus 20:6; 1 John 2:4, 3:4 KJB] and therefore they need to read John 8:24,58; Acts 5:32 KJB very seriously and prayerfully:

1 Corinthians 12:3 KJB - Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:3 GNT - διὸ γνωρίζω ὑμῖν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐν Πνεύματι Θεοῦ λαλῶν λέγει ἀνάθεμα ᾿Ιησοῦν, καὶ οὐδεὶς δύναται εἰπεῖν Κύριον ᾿Ιησοῦν εἰ μὴ ἐν Πνεύματι ἁγίῳ.

Philippians 2:11 KJB - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:11 GNT - καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι Κύριος ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν Θεοῦ πατρός.

Even as it is written:

Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 45:22 KJB - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 45:23 KJB - I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Jeremiah 31:3 KJB - The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

John 12:32 KJB - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Psalms 102:24 KJB - I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

Psalms 102:25 KJB - Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Psalms 102:26 KJB - They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Compare:

Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

John 8:24 KJB - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Romans 10:13 KJB -For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Side note: see also Genesis 4:26, 12:8, 26:25; Psalms 116:4,13,17; Zephaniah 3:9 KJB

Acts 19:5 KJB - When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:2 KJB - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Paul, directly citing the Old Testament, in the context of the words JEHOVAH God, “... I am with thee ...”, are spoken by “... Jesus Christ the same ...”
 
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ReChoired

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Revelation 12:7-8 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Michael the archangel is in this verse contending with Satan who is the dragon. Satan and his angels fight Michael and his angels.

If this were Jesus fighting, there wouldn’t be a battle at all. Why? Jesus is all powerful and ALL MIGHTY!!!
Look up the word "war". It is the koine Greek [G4171] "πόλεμος" (polemos) which begins as a confrontation of words, argumentations, debating points.

Lucifer claimed something about God's character (Psalms 51:4 KJB) through his deception, lies (John 8:44; tail; Isaiah 9:15 KJB).

If you carefully compare Daniel 10-12; Zechariah 3; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12 it is mostly about a "war" (Daniel 9:26 KJB), a great controversy, of words and ideas. Lucifer claimed several things, one of which was about God's character (as in Genesis 3, etc), and another of which was that he (Lucifer) had a better system (way) to rule (his own personal judgment apart from God's law) than God's way (Law). Lucifer's plan was self-righteousness (self-law) in the place of (anti) God's righteousness (Psalms 119:172).

The last 6K+ years, demonstrated in Lucifer's six 'days' to work, in Revelation 17, show the fullness (7) of his modes of government (all failures). The tree grew from the bad seed, as allowed by God, so that all the unfallen universe could see in demonstration that Lucifer's government was a failure in practicality. The Cross demonstrated that Lucifer was a murderer at heart, for that event brought out what Lucifer was hiding behind by words, which the unfallen universe could not fully discern until it was witnessed. Once the fruit is born, and seen, then the tree of evil could be cut down from the roots.

It is not a contest of physical strength so much (though Lucifer always tries that after words fail), as of ideas, words about character and government's. Jesus came to show both about His Father, and that both were always good and selfless, in reality actual love in demonstration.
 
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kcnalp

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Mat 10:25 - It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Totally evasive! No where in the NT does it say Michael is our Savior, ONLY Jesus! You have a different savior who can't save you from your sins.
 
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Davy

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If Lord Jesus were the Archangel Michael, then it would mean our Salvation in Christ Jesus is doomed. Why? Simply because no angel can save us, only God can. It is that simple.

Furthermore, the simple matter that Apostle John said in 1 John 2 confirms that those who do not believe that Jesus Christ is God are liars and antichrists.

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV


John is 'indirectly' declaring the requirement to believe that Jesus is GOD. How? By requiring belief that Jesus of Nazareth is The CHRIST.

Maybe some read or hear that term Christ so often they don't really think about its meaning. When speaking in relation to God's Word, it means God's Promised Savior, of which He said there is no other Saviour but Him (Hosea 13:4). So to say, "The Christ", means to say GOD The Saviour.

And since when did GOD create Himself as an angel? And when was God Himself ever created? That is the anti-Scriptural argument one presents by claiming Jesus is Archangel Michael, since Michael was created.
 

Heart2Soul

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Let us( YHWH and his master worker) create man in our image.
The speaker at Proverbs 8 is the one YHWH sent to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal. His master worker. No other deserves that title but the one whom God created all other things through. It says grew especially fond of me, And the speaker advises all listen to him. It also shows God created him. Which goes along with Collosians 1:15-- The firstborn of all creation--The term all creation proves he was the first creation.
Daniel 12:1--Michael stands up for the sons of Daniel( Israel) He did that as a man named Jesus but they rejected him. Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel( 1Thess 4:16) it is his voice. In Revelation Michael rides the white horse( war in heaven) that ride continues and it shows Jesus on that horse coming to earth leading Gods armies. The ride does not stop until this-1Corinthians 15:24-28-- Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself.--- God does not have a God--God is in subjection to no one.
JESUS IS MICHAEL. God sent his best.

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- proving Jesus is not YHWH.
How can people believe that Jesus is Michael...Jesus who was born of a virgin and is the ONLY begotten SON OF GOD.....who was in the beginning (the Word, and the Word was with us and the Word became flesh). Nowhere does scripture say Michael is the Word, is the Word with us, and is the Word made flesh.
 

Heart2Soul

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Let us( YHWH and his master worker) create man in our image.
The speaker at Proverbs 8 is the one YHWH sent to earth and was named Jesus as a mortal. His master worker. No other deserves that title but the one whom God created all other things through. It says grew especially fond of me, And the speaker advises all listen to him. It also shows God created him. Which goes along with Collosians 1:15-- The firstborn of all creation--The term all creation proves he was the first creation.
Daniel 12:1--Michael stands up for the sons of Daniel( Israel) He did that as a man named Jesus but they rejected him. Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel( 1Thess 4:16) it is his voice. In Revelation Michael rides the white horse( war in heaven) that ride continues and it shows Jesus on that horse coming to earth leading Gods armies. The ride does not stop until this-1Corinthians 15:24-28-- Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father and subjects himself.--- God does not have a God--God is in subjection to no one.
JESUS IS MICHAEL. God sent his best.

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- proving Jesus is not YHWH.
Another thing to consider...Michael wrestled with Satan over the body of Moses...then he finally said..."The Lord rebuke you"...why would he say that if he was the Lord?
Somebody has taught you some extremely false information and to demote Jesus to that of an angel is blasphemy in my opinion.
 

Davy

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Another thing to consider...Michael wrestled with Satan over the body of Moses...then he finally said..."The Lord rebuke you"...why would he say that if he was the Lord?
Somebody has taught you some extremely false information and to demote Jesus to that of an angel is blasphemy in my opinion.

Yeah, and his name was Charles Taze Russel who started the JW cult, or so-called "Bible Student" movement.
 
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quietthinker

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Jesus is Michael
Maybe Crocodile Dundee would call him Mick? I do remember him saying something about them being mates!
 
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Keiw

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How can people believe that Jesus is Michael...Jesus who was born of a virgin and is the ONLY begotten SON OF GOD.....who was in the beginning (the Word, and the Word was with us and the Word became flesh). Nowhere does scripture say Michael is the Word, is the Word with us, and is the Word made flesh.

Daniel 12:1--it is Michael who stands up. 1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel--its his voice-- Both are listed as riders of the white horse in revelation. It is the same ride. And that is when Jesus comes back to earth.
The bible is clear-God sent a being to the earth--it was Michael.
 

Keiw

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Another thing to consider...Michael wrestled with Satan over the body of Moses...then he finally said..."The Lord rebuke you"...why would he say that if he was the Lord?
Somebody has taught you some extremely false information and to demote Jesus to that of an angel is blasphemy in my opinion.

Actually he said-YHWH(Jehovah) rebuke you. Men added the word LORD in the OT and removed Gods name. They had no right. Michael defeated satan in the war of heaven, he could defeat him anytime. But only when it was Gods will for the time to be. It wasnt time yet back then.
 

Heart2Soul

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Actually he said-YHWH(Jehovah) rebuke you. Men added the word LORD in the OT and removed Gods name. They had no right. Michael defeated satan in the war of heaven, he could defeat him anytime. But only when it was Gods will for the time to be. It wasnt time yet back then.
I humbly disagree with you based on these scriptures....which clearly separates angels and Jesus.
Heb 1 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
² has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
³ who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
⁴ having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
⁵ For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
⁶ But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
⁷ And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
⁹ You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
¹⁰ And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
¹¹ They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
¹² Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."
¹³ But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
¹⁴ Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
 

Keiw

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I humbly disagree with you based on these scriptures....which clearly separates angels and Jesus.
Heb 1 (NKJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
² has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
³ who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
⁴ having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
⁵ For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
⁶ But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
⁷ And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
⁸ But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
⁹ You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
¹⁰ And: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
¹¹ They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;
¹² Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."
¹³ But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool"?
¹⁴ Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?


The correct translation of Proskenaue for Jesus is obesiance to a king. The real meaning of the word means to bow and kiss the feet. trinity translators put worship in their translations= error.

The one greater than Jesus makes his enemies his footstool.
Archangel is better than the other angels.
 

post

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Actually he said-YHWH(Jehovah) rebuke you. Men added the word LORD in the OT and removed Gods name. They had no right. Michael defeated satan in the war of heaven, he could defeat him anytime. But only when it was Gods will for the time to be. It wasnt time yet back then.

The Greek does not say YHVH. YHWH is not found in the NT at all.
the word 'Jehovah' is found nowhere in Scripture at all, it is a German spelling for a guess at the tetragrammaton, Yahweh. In German 'j' is a 'y' sound.

It is pure speculation on your part to say the texts are all corrupted. If you proceed in such a way you can completely imagine your own god because you replace anything in the Bible you don't like with what you personally think it ought to say. That is wickedness.


The Greek says Kurios, which is Lord, which is what Christ is called, because Jesus Christ is I AM.
 

Keiw

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The Greek does not say YHVH. YHWH is not found in the NT at all.
the word 'Jehovah' is found nowhere in Scripture at all, it is a German spelling for a guess at the tetragrammaton, Yahweh. In German 'j' is a 'y' sound.

It is pure speculation on your part to say the texts are all corrupted. If you proceed in such a way you can completely imagine your own god because you replace anything in the Bible you don't like with what you personally think it ought to say. That is wickedness.


The Greek says Kurios, which is Lord, which is what Christ is called, because Jesus Christ is I AM.

Actually in the 300,s Jerome said the name does belong in the NT. He was correct. God wants his name known and used, as does Jesus-John 17:6,26- just not in vain.
There is no i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. I will be what i will be is the correct translating of that passage. The Hebrews understand theirlanguage better than any trinitarian. Always best to check the facts. After all, eternal life is on the line.
 

post

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Actually in the 300,s Jerome said the name does belong in the NT. He was correct.

lol?

qui apparui Abraham, Isaac et Jacob in Deo omnipotente: et nomen meum Adonai non indicavi eis.
(Exodus 6:3, Jerome's Vulgate)​

Jerome uses 'Adonai' for YHWH here -- and more commonly, Dominus:

Dixitque iterum Deus ad Moysen: Haec dices filiis Israel: Dominus Deus patrum vestrorum, Deus Abraham, Deus Isaac et Deus Jacob, misit me ad vos: hoc nomen mihi est in aeternum, et hoc memoriale meum in generationem et generationem.
(Exodus 3:15)​

guess what Jerome also does --

Et nemo potest dicere, Dominus Jesus, nisi in Spiritu Sancto.
(1 Corinthians 12:3)​

he calls Christ Dominus
as do i -- but do you? who do you say that HE IS ?
 

Keiw

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lol?

qui apparui Abraham, Isaac et Jacob in Deo omnipotente: et nomen meum Adonai non indicavi eis.
(Exodus 6:3, Jerome's Vulgate)​

Jerome uses 'Adonai' for YHWH here -- and more commonly, Dominus:

Dixitque iterum Deus ad Moysen: Haec dices filiis Israel: Dominus Deus patrum vestrorum, Deus Abraham, Deus Isaac et Deus Jacob, misit me ad vos: hoc nomen mihi est in aeternum, et hoc memoriale meum in generationem et generationem.
(Exodus 3:15)​

guess what Jerome also does --

Et nemo potest dicere, Dominus Jesus, nisi in Spiritu Sancto.
(1 Corinthians 12:3)​

he calls Christ Dominus
as do i -- but do you? who do you say that HE IS ?


Because wicked men removed Gods name from the OT in nearly 6800 spots, they had no right to do so. Replaced it with GOD or LORD--That is where Adonai came from-YHWH belongs. He was just the Popes secretary. Obviously the Pope wouldnt allow the name to be there. But Jerome said it belongs in the NT.
 

post

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Because wicked men removed Gods name from the OT in nearly 6800 spots, they had no right to do so. Replaced it with GOD or LORD--That is where Adonai came from-YHWH belongs. He was just the Popes secretary. Obviously the Pope wouldnt allow the name to be there. But Jerome said it belongs in the NT.

*ahem*

ok i will repeat for you:

Jerome replaces YHWH with Dominus
and Jerome calls Jesus Christ this very same Dominus.

see previous post.
 

Keiw

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*ahem*

ok i will repeat for you:

Jerome replaces YHWH with Dominus
and Jerome calls Jesus Christ this very same Dominus.

see previous post.

In the OT it says clearly--The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- Jesus never got-LORD all capitols only YHWH did. But it does not belong there. YHWH said to my Lord is correct.
 

post

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In the OT it says clearly--The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- Jesus never got-LORD all capitols only YHWH did. But it does not belong there. YHWH said to my Lord is correct.

So now you think Jerome is wrong?
You are the one who said Jerome is correct.

But who do you say Christ is?
God clearly says He is God, Hebrews 1:8