I am not a "trinitarian", and never said "God" was "trinitarian", and do not teach that heresy of Romanism. I translated the text as it is simply given in Hebrew and koine Greek. I even gave you the translation from several Jewish websites (as you yourself noted, who are not 'trinitarian'). What is your excuse for them? I even provided parallel texts which translate similarly as Psalms 45:6, that even the WTS/JW translate similarly. Why the sudden alteration here in Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8?
Jesus is Michael
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Well, apparently Jesus needed the assistance of the angels because he is not Almighty....who told you that he was?
When Jesus was arrested, Peter drew his sword to protect his master....what was Jesus’ response? After telling Peter to put away his weapon, Jesus said....
“Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?”
When Jesus was in agony in the garden Luke 22:41-43..
“41 And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw away, and he bent his knees and began to pray, 42 saying: “Father, if you want to, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” 43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.”
If Jesus was both God and man, why was this necessary?
The only reason why Jesus cannot be Michael in the minds of trinitarians is because they believe that Jesus is God. Jesus never once said he was God or even equal with his Father.
Even in heaven, the Father remains the God of Jesus. (Revelation 3:12)
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No, Jesus needed "assistance" (as in Garden of Gethsemane) of angels (as Gabriel), because He had laid aside (Philippians 2:6-8; Luke 2:52 KJB) utilizing His Almighty (Genesis 17:1 and context KJB) power; and as a human (spirit is willing but the flesh of mankind is weak), relied upon the Father, by the Holy Ghost, as we must. Jesus could not use anything that we do not have access to. After His victory it was given back by command of the Father, that He could utilize His almighty power (Matthew 28:18 KJB), for what do you think, "all power" in Heaven and Earth means?
Nonsense. I showed historically it is the other way round, and that it is the WTS/JW that cling to Romanism in part, by making of Michael a creature as Romanism does.
Michael The Archangel [X2] - Appendix 2 - The Short Historical List Of Those Who Taught Jesus Is Michael : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Michael The Archangel [11] - Messengers Of The LORD & The Reformation & Etc : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
No, you are in error! Already, the very first sentence in the Bible reads: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is the plural Hebrew word "Elohiym" if translated in Hebrew it should read thus: "In the beginning Gods [they] created [singular] the heaven and the earth."
This means there were more than one God involved in creation!
In Hebrew there are three numbers:
1) Singular means one.
2) Duo/dual means two.
3) Plural means three or more.
In English we only have two numbers:
1) Singular means one.
2) Plural means two or more.
The nation of Israel were monotheistic Jews that is they serve only one God. However, the Apostles recognize the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as God also.
2 Corinthians 13:14 reads:
" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all." Amen
To God Be The Glory
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Why is it not both? That He (Jesus) is God (by nature, eternal Deity), and has His God (Father, also eternal Deity in nature)? I think you misunderstand the word "God" in English, in koine Greek and in Hebrew.
The WTS/JW's 'Bible' is actually a compilation of Catholic manuscripts, codices (like Codex Aleph (Sinaiticus), and Codex B (Vaticanus), A - Alexandrinus, etc), etc. among other things.
Every Hebrew scholar and Jewish person will tell you-Elohim=never plural for the true God--They know the language better than any trinitarian.
They certainly have no explanation of why when Jesus returns he comes with the voice of the archangel-1Thess 4:16--Do they think he borrows it? It is his voice.
Son has the Father, thus God (Son), has a God (Father), fact.
Hebrews 1:9 KJB - Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
God is truth and Hebrew and Jewish scholars ARE NOT!
I beg to differ. Hebrew and Jewish scholars DOES NOT know more than the trinitarians.
Genesis 1:26-27 reads:
26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...
27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Note in verse 26 the pronoun is plural but in verse 27 the pronoun is singular.
Why is this so?
No the Hebrew and Jewish scholars are way behind the trinitarians as concerning the Trinity [although the word Trinity is not found in Holy Writ]. BECAUSE they believe that there are three different persons that subsists in the Godhead. As written in 2 Corinthians 13:14.
To God Be The Glory
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You don’t think native Hebrew speakers can translate their own language better that those who are not native speakers? Really?
They also have what is called "the plural of majesty"...the Royal “We”, which would also explain the plural stated there.
Good question. Another line of reasoning is knowing that God had assistance because he gave the privilege of fabricating creation to his son. They were not co-creators but the Father created all things through the agency of his firstborn son. (Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:2; Proverbs 8:30-31)
First of all, there is no such word as "godhead" in the Bible. Trinitarians made that up.
"God the Father...."God the Son"...and "God the Holy Spirit".....are three gods. Squeezing them all into one head doesn't make polytheism into monotheism.
No Jew would ever have accepted that Jesus was God, for the simple reason that it is blasphemy and a breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) Satan had to wait over three hundred years to pull that one off. The trinity was not accepted into official "church" doctrine until the 4th century. If Jesus did not teach it...it isn't true.
2 Corinthians 13:14....
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” (NASB)
Like Jesus' words in Matthew 28:19, recognizing the role that each of these played in a person’s spiritual journey to baptism is not proclaiming a trinity. These scriptures do not say that all three are God.....do they? Trinitarians fill in the blanks with what they want the scripture to say......it says nothing of the sort.
The Father and his Son are two separate entities.....one is "the only true God" who "sent" the other on a mission. (John 17:3) The holy spirit is not a person.
The apostle were in no doubt as to who was their God and who was their "Lord" (master) in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."
There is no trinity in the Bible....even as you pointed out....the church who introduced it says so.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Thank you, I will...but you must have had some thoughts regarding the scriptures I posted.....care to at least share?
The scriptures do not lie. How can Jesus be God if he needed angels to help him?
Even when he returns as judge, it is with the Angelic forces. (Matthew 25:31-32)
No, that is historical revisionism. You made it up. Doesn't exist in Hebrew. The Royal "we" was under the auspices of English royalty, and others, who, by the way, were 'trinitarian' (not that I am), and they used it to refer to plurality of persons, themselves (as King, Queen, etc) and ruling with God above them, since most were either Protestant or Catholic. The royal "we" never referred to just a singular person.
Modern Hebrew translators, be consistent with the OT texts in the light of Christianity and the NT texts? No. They are tremendously biased, and it can be shown even in several places in scripture where they (Rabbis, etc) purposefully obscure texts to justify their rebellion to JEHOVAH.
For instance: Isaiah 7:14:
Isaiah 7:14 (Mechon-Mamre) Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. - Isaiah 7 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre
Isaiah 7:14 (Sefaria) Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel.g - Isaiah 7:14
However, from Genesis 3:15 ("her seed"), it requires a virgin woman, not merely a "young woman". Even a notation on BlueLetterBible states:
""There is no instance where it can be proved that 'almâ designates a young woman who is not a virgin. The fact of virginity is obvious in Gen 24:43 where 'almâ is used of one who was being sought as a bride for Isaac." (R. Laird Harris, et al. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, p. 672.)" - H5959 - ʿalmâ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)
As for instance, in Exodus 2:8, Moses, sister, was a little girl, a virgin.
In Song of Solomon the "virgins" are in contrast to Queens and Concubines.
The word is supposed to stem from 'elem', which means 'virgin youth, or young boys', not sexually active (not reached puberty).
Sure I can answer from scripture, even with the question I had asked earlier.
Jesus said, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20 KJB), but what does the Bible say elsewhere who that is with us?
The God with us?
Psalms 46:7 KJB - The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Psalms 46:11 KJB - The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Isaiah 7:14 KJB - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23 KJB - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
“... The LORD of Hosts ...”, this “... God of Jacob ...”, even the “... God with us ...”:
Genesis 26:24 KJB - And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.
Genesis 28:15 KJB - And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Genesis 31:3 KJB - And the LORD said unto Jacob, Return unto the land of thy fathers, and to thy kindred; and I will be with thee.
Genesis 46:4 KJB - I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again: and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.
Exodus 3:12 KJB - And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Compare, “... I have sent thee ...”:
Matthew 10:16 KJB - Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Matthew 23:34 KJB - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Luke 10:3 KJB - Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
John 20:21 KJB - Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Philippians 2:19 KJB - But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.
Deuteronomy 31:6 KJB - Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Joshua 1:5 KJB - There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
1 Kings 8:57 KJB - The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:
1 Chronicles 28:20 KJB - And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
The New Testament usage of this:
Matthew 28:20 KJB - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Acts 18:10 KJB - For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
The very context that the Apostle Paul, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, quotes from the OT and to whom he directly equates it with:
Hebrews 13:5 KJB - Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Hebrews 13:6 KJB - So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Compare:
Psalms 30:10 KJB - Hear, O LORD, and have mercy upon me: LORD, be thou my helper.
Psalms 54:4 KJB - Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.
Matthew 15:25 KJB - Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Hebrews 13:7 KJB - Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
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