A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Keiw]

Peter teaches that the Father is God (1 Peter 1:3) and Jesus is God (2 Peter 1:1), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

You are dead wrong, again.

I know 100% i am correct and you listen to the religion that came out of Romes translating. There own encyclopedia says the apostles knew nothing of God being a trinity, So no not one them wrote in the bible about Jesus being God, since they never served a trinity. The Israelite religion served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God until this very day. That means Jesus was taught that God when he attended. As was Every bible writer. He never refuted that God, he taught it-John 4:22-24--John 20:17, Rev 3:12.

 

[Rich R]

Anyone who says Yahweh, is not one who is truly born again.

I've heard that before, but I'm thinking it might be wise to let Jesus sort out who's in and who's out.

I can say unequivocally that in my case you are very wrong. I say Yahweh all the time and yet I'm still born again, baptized in holy spirit, and I have a part (small as it may be) in the body of Christ.

God bless.

 

[Kermos]

Error. Peter teaches the Father is Jesus' God, he would not contradict himself. 1Peter 1:3

Whoa there Keiw. YOU LIED when you wrote:

They know the language better than any trinitarian does. Look up Ho Theos( The God)= only the Father is called that in the NT--Its in the second line at John 1:1, but plain Theos in the last line= a god small g=Fact.

You are deceived because you fail to believe Apostolic teaching that indicates Jesus is the God (2 Peter 1:1, tou Theou, tou is the direct object - in English "the").

Fact: the Apostle Peter wrote "tou Theou" (the God) referring to Jesus when Peter wrote "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.

Peter teaches that the Father is God (1 Peter 1:3) and Jesus is God (2 Peter 1:1), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

You remain dead wrong.

 

[Kermos]

He didn't say it, it's the conclusion of His statement. He is quoting the passage in Exodus. If by, Jesus is God, you mean He is deity, I agree. If you mean He is the one true God, then I disagree. He said the Father is the one true God.

Jesus does not stop at Exodus with His words recorded in John 8:58, but He goes back to Genesis by mentioning Abraham, and He goes back eternally because He establishes His existence as perpetual prior to Abraham.

Oh, so you claim there are two gods based upon that which you wrote in your quoted post.

You disagree with the Word of God because the Word of God states there is One True God (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

Nothing in that statement says Jesus existed in eternity past. It simply says He existed before Abraham. You're reading your beliefs into the passage.

You cannot identify a time prior to Jesus saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) in which Jesus did not exist, nor can anyone. According to the Christ, Jesus existed in eternity past.

You can make stuff up if you want to, but the passage is clear. The Father is never subject to the Son and the Son will be subject to the Father. It's crystal clear. Forcing your beliefs on the passage doesn't change what it says. As for Jesus words, "I and the Father are one", they speak of unity, not person. It's clear to anyone without an agenda that they are two different beings. One can be seen and one can't be. As I said, Jesus Himself said that the Father was the only true God. Thus He excluded Himself. You are arguing against Jesus. He said the Father is the only true God. Do you believe Him or your traditions?

You are blind to the fact that Paul wrote “He is excepted” (1 Corinthians 15:27) referring to Jesus.

Here is the full verse, "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him" (1 Corinthians 15:27).

You are subtracting that part of the 1 Cor 15:24-28 passage.

Jesus, truly God, is excepted!

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

You are arguing against Jesus Whose sayings I proclaim to you in this post.

You don't really worry about what the passages actually say, do you? Paul said that Jesus was the first born of all creation. Jesus Himself said that He came out of God. He didn't say He came out of Himself, He said He came out of God.

Jesus saying that He came from God means that He came from God.

It is wicked for you to try to force the concept that Jesus came from God means that Jesus IS NOT God into His mouth.

Jesus is called Immanuel which translated is God with us (Matthew 1:23); therefore, truly, Jesus is God with us!

I'm always amazed that people argue so vehemently for a doctrine that makes no sense, can't be found in Scripture, and doesn't appear in the church until the 5th century

Jesus is God for the Apostle Thomas confessed this Truth with "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Matthew confessed this Truth with Jesus is called "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

The scriptural Truth that Jesus is God IS NOT in your thoughts, so you are deceived - you are in a state of disbelief.

You obviously do NOT know history. For example, the Apostles Peter, Thomas, Paul, and Matthew all lived prior to the fifth century - and God had me proclaim the scripture thar reflects this Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

No John did not write that. The religion that came out of Rome mistranslated it to fit their false council teaching of God being a trinity.

The accurate translation of John's writing is "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1), and John's writing indicates that Jesus is God.

Your thoughts reject the Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

Jesus teaches he has a God like we do--John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- His followers believe him over errors.

Neither John 20:17 nor Revelation 3:12 contains "God like"; furthermore, the passages do not state that Jesus is not God.

Jesus is God for the Apostle Thomas confessed this Truth with "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Matthew confessed this Truth with Jesus is called "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

The scriptural Truth that Jesus is God IS NOT in your thoughts, so you are deceived - you are in a state of disbelief.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is a lot to address here Pinseeker, so I will break it up....

Christ Jesus Himself bears it out very clearly in John 14.

Perhaps you would like to highlight which verse(s) in John ch.14 support your assertion that Jesus is unequivocally claiming to be God. I cannot find a single mention of this. If you are going to only provide scripture that barely references your claim, I will ask you for categorical statements because these cannot be twisted to mean something else.

Well, actually, I was referring to the concept that a person cannot be separated from his/her word or breath ~ in the sense that you cannot really be separated from what you say or from your breath.

Can you please clarify what you mean here and add scriptural support to this assertion....”word or breath”? as if they mean the same thing...? Since when?

"Firstborn," in Paul's context, is regarding preeminence, and not merely "born before anyone else" ~ the very same context in which David is made firstborn, though he was born after all his brothers.

In Psalm 89 Yahweh refers to “David my servant” (v3, 20) and reviews the covenant for the kingdom that was made with him. In the midst of this is the statement: “I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.” (Psalm 89:20, 27) David was not a 'firstborn' son physically speaking, but prophetically likened to God's own "firstborn" who was said to inherit the throne of David.

And as you know, Jesus is the last Adam:

“'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit... The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven... As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the Man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven... Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven" (1 Corinthians 15:45-49).

Since Jesus had to be the equivalent of the first Adam in order to redeem the fallen human race...(i.e. he had to be a sinless human being in order for God’s law to be carried out) we have to understand what redemption meant in the Jewish understanding of the arrangement. The payment was an exact amount, no more and no less. God’s law was “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.”
Since no other human could offer a sinless life to pay the debt, Jesus had to come from heaven, (from outside the now sinful human race) in order to become that offering. He did not have to be God in order to pay that price.....all he needed to be was 'sinless'. (Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 2:9)

And, since God alone was said to be immortal, becoming a human (if he chose to do that) would not have changed anything.....no human can kill an immortal. Jesus had to be a 100% mortal human in order to pay the “ransom” demanded under God’s law....the exact equivalent of Adam.
If God himself had become a human, no other being in existence could have caused his death....and since the ransomer needed only to be sinless, why would the Creator himself need to become that sacrifice when his most trusted and “holy servant, Jesus” (Acts 4:27) agreed to offer his life for the human race that he had lovingly helped to create? (Colossians 1:15-17; Proverbs 8:30-31; Genesis 1:26)

If God had offered his own life, not only was it impossible for him to die, but the overpayment of the ransom would be the equivalent of paying trillions of times more than the ransom demanded...and that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No mere man is qualified to mediate between God and man except One Who is both God and man. The author of Hebrews is very clear about this fact.

Where does it say that in the scriptures? That is an assumption based on what?...faulty human reasoning.
1 Timothy 2:5-6....
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” (ESV)
The Mediator was a “man....Jesus Christ” and he was “between God and men”....there is ”one God” who is not the Mediator.

If Jesus was God, why don’t we need a mediator between him and us? Sin was the barrier between God and men, which is why a mediator was needed in the first place....so your reasoning is not only unscriptural...it is totally illogical.

Well, but Jesus has the ability, as God, to lay down His life on earth and then take it up again, which He said very clearly in John 10, when He says, "I lay down my life for the sheep... I lay down my life that I may take it up again... No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord... I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again... This charge I have received from my Father."

You are not noticing what these scriptures are actually saying.....

“I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again... This charge I have received from my Father.”

What do you think Jesus is saying here? Does God need to give himself authority to do anything?
If Jesus needs “authority” from his Father, then he is not God. (Matthew 28:18)

And to head off at least one of your objections, yes, He received that charge from His Father, just as He said, but He would not have received this charge if He, by His own accord, could not execute this charge. God alone gives life and has command over it, and Jesus is there saying He is God also, because He, fully God as He is, has command over His own earthly life.

Sorry, that is not what he said....and it was not Jesus who resurrected himself....it was his God and Father who raised him from the dead.

Peter spoke of King David who spoke prophetically about the Messiah.....
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.” (Acts 2:29-32 ESV) These eye “witnesses” were in no doubt as to who raised their Lord Jesus from the dead.

We can take a look at YHVH's covenant with Abram (soon to become Abraham) in Genesis 15. Normally, the two parties to the covenant being made would have both passed through the halves (front quarters on one side, hind quarters on the other) of the animals to ratify the covenant, both parties essentially saying, "If I don't keep my end of the covenant, this is what will happen to me; I will be cut in half." But as you know, YHVH put Abram into a deep sleep and then walked through the animal halves alone, and in effect saying:

"If I don't keep My end of this covenant, this is what will happen to Me," and, on behalf of Abram (and thus all his progeny), "If you don't keep your end of this covenant, this is what will happen to Me,"

YHVH, in the Person of Christ Jesus, did the latter.

Covenants were a binding legal agreement between parties, and Abram was not one to go back on his word....neither was the one who made the covenant with him. His descendants OTOH, were never as faithful as their forefather Abraham always proved to be. But Abram did not make a covenant with Jesus...it was with the God and Father of Jesus Christ who would be born as a human child in Abraham’s family line. Messiah was only ever expected to be a human.....Jesus was never once called Yahweh....and he was never said to be God incarnate, because no Jew would have entertained such a blasphemous thought.

Of course He did. It might behoove you not to stop at John 17:3 and read on to John 17:5, where He prays with absolute confidence for the Father to "glorify (Him; Jesus) in (His; the Father's) own presence with the glory that (He, Jesus) had with (Him; the Father) before the world existed."

OK, how about we read on even further...?
“5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. 6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.” (John 17:5-8 ESV)
Did God send himself and then give credit to his other 'self' in heaven for everything he taught?

And, what is “glory”? Can those who are not God have “glory”?

In the OT Scriptures, the word most often translated “glory” is ka·vohdhʹ, which basically has the sense of “heaviness”...used elsewhere to indicate other “heavy” things.....like 1 Samuel 4:18 where the related adjective ka·vedhʹ is rendered “heavy” and is used to describe Eli as “old and heavy”....not a "glorious" description is it?

So from other scripture we can see that “glory” may refer to anything that makes a person or a thing seem weighty or impressive, such as material wealth, (Psalm 49:16) position, or reputation. (Genesis 45:13) The Greek equivalent of ka·vohdhʹ is doʹxa, which originally meant “opinion ; reputation,” but in the Christian Greek Scriptures came to mean “glory.” So from this you can see how important it is to understand the original language words and how they applied in the time they were written, rather than how they came to be understood or interpreted later.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And here also, Jesus's high priestly prayer, as we refer to it, is confirming to us that Jesus pre-existed everything... He was not "born" ~ except only to the extent that He submitted Himself to being born of a woman, to take on the form of man for our sake, as Paul says in Philippians 2. As John has said previously, "All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made... In Him was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:3-4)

Again you are not reading the words but what you imagine that they are saying......
Let's take Philippians 2 as an example....verses 5-11 are often used to support the trinity but the opposite is true...

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Jesus was "existing in God's form"...what form does God have?
According to John 4:24..."God is a spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”...so if 'God is a spirit' and the angels are spirits, (Hebrews 1:14) then logically Jesus in his pre-human form, was also a "spirit". After his earthly mission, Jesus returned to heaven as a "spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Jesus did 'NOT consider equality with his God something to be grasped'......IOW he did NOT want people to consider him as his Father's equal.....and never once did he teach such a thing. He always gave his Father the credit for all that he said and did, and he deferred to his Father's will and teachings, saying that none of the things he taught were from himself. (John 7:16)

Taking on the form of a "servant" on earth, (Acts 4:27) he was careful to do the will of his Father, rather than his own. (Matthew 26:39) How can one equal part of God have a different will to his other self?
He became "obedient to the point of death"....to whom was he obedient? Obviously to his God and Father. Does one part of God obey his equal other self?

God highly exalted Jesus.....if he was God, how is that possible? No one has a higher position that "the Most High" (Psalm 83:18) and he was given a name that is above every name.....again, how is that possible when his name is already above every other name?

Everyone has to confess that "Jesus is Lord" (not God).....to whose glory? Not his own, but all glory going to the Father.

John 1:3-4 agrees with Colossians 1:15-17.....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

The pre-human Jesus was the agent of creation, but not the Creator. When it says that creation came "through him and for him", it means that God gave his son the privilege of being the one who was working at his Father's side in the creative process. (Genesis 1:26)

Proverbs 8:30-31 confirms that God was not alone in creating all things.
"The Lord created me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. . . . .
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind."

So, I will beg to differ on many of your points as the scriptures themselves tell the story......if you are reading them without the trinitarian lens.

 

[Kermos]

I know 100% i am correct and you listen to the religion that came out of Romes translating. There own encyclopedia says the apostles knew nothing of God being a trinity, So no not one them wrote in the bible about Jesus being God, since they never served a trinity. The Israelite religion served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God until this very day. That means Jesus was taught that God when he attended. As was Every bible writer. He never refuted that God, he taught it-John 4:22-24--John 20:17, Rev 3:12.

You make an appeal to some commentary (an encyclopedia) that is NOT the Word of God, so you engage in foolishness.

Israel served YHWH, the One True God, and this God made self-reference with "Us" in Genesis 1:26, and the word "Us" is a plurality in One True God.

It seems that you appeal to the Jews, again, yet I explained to you previously that the Jews missed the Christ's coming, so they are an unreliable source, yet you persist in esteeming the Jews as authoritative in your heart, so you engage in foolishness.

The John 4:22-24, John 20:17, and Revelation 3:12 passages do not state that Jesus is not God.

Jesus is God for the Apostle Thomas confessed this Truth with "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Matthew confessed this Truth with Jesus is called "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Peter confessed this Truth with "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1, "God" is "tou Theou" in Greek), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Jesus is God for the Apostle Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

The scriptural Truth that Jesus is God IS NOT your thoughts, so you are deceived - your 100% claim to true knowledge is certainly in error because you deny the Word of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And God said, Let there be Light. And God saw the Light that it was good.

Of course the light is "good"....every living thing needs light to survive. It was the sun creating the light for planet earth in the beginning....it makes things grow.
If we had no light from the sun, how could God use it metaphorically?

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is the source of all light....both in the physical sense and in the spiritual sense as well.

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

This is proving that Jesus isn't God....he balked at being called "good" because he said only "one" is "good" in the superlative sense....and it wasn't him...it was his Father.

And God saw the Light that it was good.

I believe you are overthinking something very simple.....no need to make it complicated.
When each of the creative "days" were concluded, God saw that everything was "good"....but at the end of all creation he said everything was "very good".

"Good is "ṭôḇ"......"Very" here is "mᵊ'ōḏ" which means "exceedingly, much".....so God was exceedingly pleased with creation as a whole.....
So again not to read too much into one simple word as if all else hinges on it. Sometimes the truth is just that simple.

Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Light also has various meanings and even describes the activities of satan whilst he pretends to be "an angel of light" to deceive people. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) The light in him is not from God.....

Light shining in a dark place is an illuminator.....light overpowers darkness. Its a very descriptive element in our material world. Just one of the crucial creation elements that are vital to life.

 

[Ziggy]

Of course the light is "good"....every living thing needs light to survive. It was the sun creating the light for planet earth in the beginning....it makes things grow.
If we had no light from the sun, how could God use it metaphorically?


God is the source of all light....both in the physical sense and in the spiritual sense as well.

This is proving that Jesus isn't God....he balked at being called "good" because he said only "one" is "good" in the superlative sense....and it wasn't him...it was his Father.


I believe you are overthinking something very simple.....no need to make it complicated.
When each of the creative "days" were concluded, God saw that everything was "good"....but at the end of all creation he said everything was "very good".

"Good is "ṭôḇ"......"Very" here is "mᵊ'ōḏ" which means "exceedingly, much".....so God was exceedingly pleased with creation as a whole.....
So again not to read too much into one simple word as if all else hinges on it. Sometimes the truth is just that simple.

Light also has various meanings and even describes the activities of satan whilst he pretends to be "an angel of light" to deceive people. (2 Corinthians 11:13-15) The light in him is not from God.....

Light shining in a dark place is an illuminator.....light overpowers darkness. Its a very descriptive element in our material world. Just one of the crucial creation elements that are vital to life.

Love you Aunty Jane,
But I'm solid in my belief and there is no shaking this tree.

God Bless You
Hugs

 

[Brakelite]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

You are saying that all non -trinitarians don't believe Jesus is God?

 

[Ziggy]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

What is a Bondservant and who are the masters?
There is no escaping the controversy of law vs no law. No matter how you try it all comes back to the law.

according to the flesh.. we are speaking of the law. What does the law say concerning Bondservants and masters?

Lev 25:38 I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, and to be your God.
Lev 25:39 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:
Lev 25:40 But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile:
Lev 25:41 And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.
Lev 25:42 For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
Lev 25:43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.
Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

I'm thinking of the conversation with Jesus and Peter concerning who pays tribute.
Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

Mar 9:33
tribute 'Gr. didrachma, in value fifteen pence.' Exo 30:13; Exo 38:26; This tribute seems to have been the half shekel which every male among the Jews paid yearly for the support of the temple, and which was continued by them, wherever dispersed, till after the time of Vespasian.

We live in a different world today. A lot of the rules I don't necessarily understand concerning the laws that Israel received.
But what I see from these passages is, God allowed "gentiles" to be brought into the fold through bondsmanship.
They were to serve their "masters" Israel, and also become partakers of their inheritance.
Israel was to be God's ambassadors on earth. Bringing the truth and the knowledge of God to the world.

Regardless if they failed in this mission and the baton was then given to others to carry, the fundamental rules of God's Kingdom never ended.

God set some in the church to lead the people in the truth and knowledge of God's Kingdom and how it operates.
When the Gentiles began joining the church, they too were brought in through a means of bondmanship.
We became partakers of the promise. But not through the law, but rather through faith in God.

We read the Bible. The Bible was written by Jews. We trust the Bible is the Truth. We trust the Bible is the Word of God.
We submit ourselves to this written word as it were unto God himself.
We submit ourselves to the words written by Israel to become partakers of the inheritance of the Lord.

We submit ourselves to the Lord through the written word of men, of Israel, who were to be the lights in an ever darkening world.
Now, there is neither Jew nor Greek as we are all under the same instructions.
These instructions Paul gives us throughout all his letters are the new and improved laws that were given to Israel at Mt. Sinai.
The laws given at Mt. Sinai were superficial and revolved around the way the physical world turned.
The instructions Paul gives in his letters revolve around the heart and the spiritual way the world turns.

The only thing that changed in the law was the application from flesh to spirit.
And a lot of things that were in the law that led to Christ were needed no more.

The "masters" are supposed to be the shepherds that lead the "sheep" Jews and the "goats" Gentiles to the Lord.
It is the role of the "master's" to lead the goats into the sheep herd, where they also become partakers of the inheritance and the promises of God.
These "master's" would be the Apostles and their letters written in the Bible.

When you believe and obey the Bible, you are believing and obeying those who wrote the Bible, as if God himself put pen to paper and wrote to us himself.

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Lev 25:42 For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
Lev 25:43 Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.

This "rigour" I believe is addressed in Colossians Chapter 3,

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col3:11 Where thereis neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Dan 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

That's how I see it.
Hugs

 

[Kermos]

@Keiw and @Butch5 (and @Aunty Jane, the Truth is herein)

You exalt your unscriptural interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, that King Jesus Christ's reign in the Kingdom of God has an end, above the proclamation of apostles, prophets, angels, heavenly voices, and the Word of God.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• The angel Gabriel declares that Jesus Christ reigns without end in the Kingdom of God "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” (Luke 1:32-33).
• God declares the Son's throne endures forever with "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.'" (Hebrews 1:8)
• Heavenly voices declare that Christ Reigns in the Kingdom of God forever and ever with "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'" (Revelation 11:15)
• Daniel declares that Christ's Dominion is an everlasting Dominion with "And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away, and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:14)
• Peter declares the eternal Kingdom of God of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ with "for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:11)
• Paul wrote “He is excepted” (1 Corinthians 15:27) referring to Jesus, and Paul wrote this inside the 1 Cor 15:24-28 passage. Here is the full verse, "For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him" (1 Corinthians 15:27). Somehow, according to Paul, the Son is in subjection (1 Corinthians 15:28) while at the same time the Son is NOT in subjection because the Son is excepted (1 Corinthians 15:27), and this is because Jesus is God.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

"I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

Your writings are in opposition to the Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

This is proving that Jesus isn't God....he balked at being called "good" because he said only "one" is "good" in the superlative sense....and it wasn't him...it was his Father.

In effect, Aunty Jane, your declaration to @Ziggy conveys that Jesus said "Why do you call Me good? I am not good. No one is good except God alone", so see that you add something like "I am not good" to scripture.

In fact, Jesus says "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), so Lord Jesus includes Himself in being good for citizens of the Kingdom of God proclaim that Jesus is good under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.

Notice, He does not exclude Himself from being good, but you wickedly convey that sinless Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21) is not good, yet being sinless is good!

 

[keithr]

Peter teaches that the Father is God (1 Peter 1:3) and Jesus is God (2 Peter 1:1),

1 Peter 1:3 (KJV):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Peter is clearly stating that God is Jesus' God, and that God is Jesus father.

2 Peter 1:1 (KJV)

(1) Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:​

Peter is here talking of the righteousness of God, and also of the righteousness of Jesus. He is not saying that Jesus is our 'God and saviour' (that would be contradicting himself). Many modern translation incorrectly translate it with a Trinity bias, but other translations translate it more clearly and precisely, e.g.:

MKJV:

(1) ... the righteousness of our God and our Savior Jesus Christ,​

WEY:

(1) ... the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.​

ASV:

(1) ... the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:​

Webster:

(1) ... the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:​

Peter makes a similar statement in the very next verse:

2 Peter 1:2 [KJV]:

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,​

moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Peter stated who he thought Jesus was, Matthew 16:16 [KJV]:

(16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.​

 

[PinSeeker]

Again you are not reading the words but what you imagine that they are saying......
Let's take Philippians 2 as an example...

Yes, I was referring to Philippians 2 previously. Yes, I know the Watchtower twisting of Philippians 2:5-11 very, very well. All the misunderstandings:

• ...Christ's not counting equality with God a thing to be grasped, which means not that He "didn't have it" or that He "couldn't get it," as JWs suppose, but that He laid it aside for a time for man's sake.
• ...Christ's emptying Himself of His deity, which means not that He "purged Himself of it" or "didn't have it" at any point in time but that He humbled Himself (which the text actually says) and thus did not use His position as God to exalt Himself for the time that He lived His earthly life... for man's sake. He did show His deity many time, raising folks like Jairus's daughter and Lazarus from the dead, stilling the wind and the waves, demonstrating His omnipotence, restoring sight to the blind, forgiving sins, and on and on.
• ... Christ's being in the form of God and of man at the same time, which means not that His relation to God was somehow different than His relation to man, that He was only "like" God but fully man; but the relation is exactly the same to both, and in the Greek, the word translated to the English as 'form' is 'morphe,' which means 'wholly of.' So ~ but ~ He was (and is) wholly of God, and was (and is) wholly of man.

(Acts 4:27) he was careful to do the will of his Father, rather than his own. (Matthew 26:39) How can one equal part of God have a different will to his other self?

Having emptied Himself of His deity (though still possessing it), He was tempted in every way we men/women are; as man, He was tempted to sin, but remained sinless (Hebrews 4:15).

He became "obedient to the point of death"....to whom was he obedient? Obviously to his God and Father.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. Yes, as man, having humbled Himself and emptied Himself of His deity (though still possessing it), His God. But yes, the Father.

Does one part of God obey his equal other self?

Well, in the case of the Son obeying the Father, yes. Yet again, He emptied Himself of His deity (though still possessing it), and in the form of man, obeyed the Father.

God highly exalted Jesus.....if he was God, how is that possible?

You're just being obstinate, I think. I mean I know you don't mean to be, but it is what it is. So, because, yet again... Well, see above.

No one has a higher position that "the Most High" (Psalm 83:18) and he was given a name that is above every name.....again, how is that possible when his name is already above every other name?

See above. And below.

Everyone has to confess that "Jesus is Lord" (not God).....to whose glory? Not his own, but all glory going to the Father.

Not just His own, but to the triune Jehovah. Again, in John 17:5, Jesus prays to God the Father to glorify (Him) ~ Jesus ~ in (His) ~ the Father's ~ own presence with the glory that (He) ~ Jesus ~ had with (Him) ~ the Father ~ before the world existed, and He prays this knowing that the Father will do this. With this in mind, you would do well to remember that Isaiah, in his relating to us God's own words (which is the function of a prophet), quotes Jehovah saying, "I am the LORD..." (Jehovah) "...that is My name; My glory I give to no other..." (Isaiah 42:8) So why would Jesus pray to the Father for something (His glory) that He would give to, or share with, no other? That's really a rhetorical question, of course; the answer is because He and the Father are one, as He Himself said in John 10.

John 1:3-4 agrees with Colossians 1:15-17...

Sure it does. But not in the way you suppose, because among other things, you have a wrong understanding of His being the firstborn of all creation ~ not woodenly that "Christ was born before anything else was created or born," but that He is preeminent over, even King over, all creation, which is the rightful position of God and no other. Yes, all things have been created through Him and for Him, and He is before ~ pre-existing ~ all things, Paul says in Colossians 1. And Paul says the same thing in Romans 11 ~ and here of Jehovah, so the Father and His Christ (and the Holy Spirit, so the triune Jehovah) ~ that "from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.... To him be glory forever."

The pre-human Jesus was the agent of creation, but not the Creator. When it says that creation came "through him and for him", it means that God gave his son the privilege of being the one who was working at his Father's side in the creative process. (Genesis 1:26)

So, another rhetorical question, but what was Jesus in His "pre-human" state? Anyway though, at least you acknowledge that Jesus was there at the time of creation... Along with the Holy Spirit...

So, I will beg to differ on many of your points...

Sure you will. It matters not. It is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Whoa there Keiw. YOU LIED when you wrote:

You are deceived because you fail to believe Apostolic teaching that indicates Jesus is the God (2 Peter 1:1, tou Theou, tou is the direct object - in English "the").

Fact: the Apostle Peter wrote "tou Theou" (the God) referring to Jesus when Peter wrote "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.

Peter teaches that the Father is God (1 Peter 1:3) and Jesus is God (2 Peter 1:1), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

You remain dead wrong.

As I'm sure you know, we can't ignore any verses in the Bible. We must include all of them. Furthermore there can be no contradictions in God's word, the scriptures. I don't want to say Jesus is God or not. I'm just saying some verses seem to say yes while others say no. Remember, we can't just ignore any of them. All must fit.

If 2 Peter 1:1 is saying Jesus is God, what do we do with the following verses?

1 Cor 8:6,

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
​

If there were a "God the Son" mentioned in the Bible (of course there isn't such a phrase to be found), he still wouldn't be the one God.

​

John 20:17, Romans 15:6, 2 Corinthians 1:3, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:17, 1 Peter 1:3, Revelation 1:6, and Revelation 3:12 all speak of the God and Father of Jesus. If Jesus is God, who is this God and Father? Maybe we should be following the God of God? Wouldn't the God of God be more powerful than God?

I know, it sounds ridiculous, but how else are we going to handle these verses? It would be much easier to just say Jesus had a God and a Father (just like the scriptures declare) and therefore he couldn't be that God or Father.

We also have John 4:28, John 8:40, Acts 2:22, Acts 17:31, Romans 5:15, and 1 Timothy 2:5 all explicitly calling Jesus a man. There are no verses that explicitly call him God. That must be contrasted with the Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 which say God (Yahweh) is not a man. Surely that must carry some weight.

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.​

When you are tempted, do you have a sense of being 100% God along with 100% man? I don't think so. If he were God, Jesus' temptations would be nothing at all like our temptations. That being the case, wouldn't God be lying to us here in Hebrews 4:15 if He says Jesus was tempted just like us?

Heb 5:2,

Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.​

God compassed about with infirmity like the rest of us?

Luke 22:42, John 5:30, and John 6:38 all indicate that Jesus had a different will than God. Is God confused about what He wants? Heaven forbid!

1 Cor 11:3,

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
​

Which God is the head of God? Again, maybe we should be following the God who is the head of God. You'd think that God is more powerful.

Matt 28:18,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

Who gave God His power? Again, I would think we ought to find out and follow that God. He's obviously more powerful than the one who authored the scriptures.

Acts 2:36,

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
​

Which God made God both Lord and Christ? Christ means "the anointed one." Who anointed God?

As a final thought, I'd like to point out that Jesus is called the Son of God some 50 times as opposed to being called God the Son 0 times. Is there any other realm of existence where a son can be his own father?

I will readily admit there are some verses that can be taken to say Jesus is God. I trust you will just as readily admit all of the verses I've quoted would preclude Jesus from being God. We must either make all verses say Jesus is God or that he is not God. We can't have it both ways if we want to preserve the integrity of God's wonderful matchless word.

Regarding 2 Peter 1:1, I find it noteworthy that in his first epistle, Peter mentions the God and Father of Jesus.

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
​

If Jesus is God, then God has a God and a father? Is Peter confused? I am! Who wouldn't be, at least if we stick with the usual meaning of words and basic grammar? Perhaps the confusion could be cleared up if we looked at some of the variations in the ancient texts of 2 Peter 1:1. I think it just might.

I'm willing to go over verses one by one with you. You give me a verse that you think says Jesus is God and I'll do my best to explain why it doesn't say that at all. Then I'll give you a verse I think precludes Jesus from being God (I've already given you a bunch, but there are many more) and you explain why I'm wrong. I would only want to do that if we can remain respectful to each other. I believe you are a beloved child of God (born again) and I know I am so we are both sons of God and I for one wouldn't want to call dirty that which God has completely cleansed. So what do you think brother?

With Love in Him...Rich