A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

You're also one with God and Jesus, but you're still you.You're not God nor Jesus. Better find out exactly being "one" actually means. Maybe something along the lines of a well know figure of speech we all use and understand:

"The entire crowd acted as one..."

Surely the crowd was not literally one person. We all understand it means they were one in purpose and goals. Why could that not apply to John 10:30? That way it fits with 1 Corinthians 8:6 (and many other verses).

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

The scriptural non-existent "God the Son" would therefore be precluded from being the one God. John 10:10 needs to be in accord with 1 Corinthians 8:6. That was quite easy as long we understand what being "one" actually means, i.e. one in goals and purpose. Everything now fits with no contradiction.

Of course we could twist 1 Cor 8:6 to say that the Father is not the one God, that Jesus is also God, to make it fit with the John 10:30 supposedly saying Jesus is God. It's got to be one way or the other.

God bless

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God because of the indwelling Holy Spirit, thus God is One with God. We are the blessed beneficiaries of God's work in us.

SINCE Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

THEN Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

AND Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

In John 17:21, Jesus refers to Himself as truly Man, the Son of Man, so His reference to "one" with respect to people refers to born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8).

In John 10:30, Jesus refers to Himself as truly God, so His reference to "one" refers to God being inclusive of the person of the Father and the person of the Son.

When you write that Jesus is not God, then you deny Jesus by denying the following Apostolic teaching:

• Jesus is God for the Apostle Thomas confessed this Truth with "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
• Jesus is God for the Apostle Matthew confessed this Truth with Jesus is called "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).
• Jesus is God for the Apostle John confessed this Truth with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
• Jesus is God for the Apostle Peter confessed this Truth with "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1, "God" is "tou Theou" in Greek), moreover, Peter, who walked with Jesus, restates that which Jesus says "I and the father are One" (John 10:30).
• Jesus is God for the Apostle Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

Well you made a lot of good points, but too many to address all at once. Let's try one at a time.

John 20:28,

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Maybe this could be taken as saying Jesus is God. Let's investigate. Here's Strong's definition of "god:"

a god or deity. a supernatural, powerful entity (real or imagined).

Notice it does not say, "the" God or "the" supernatural, powerful entity. That's because, to the Ancient Near Eastern man (that's who got the scriptures, not Bill Gates last year in LA), the word "god" basically meant anyone with power and authority, including various men. So Jesus could be called a god. He of course was given that power and authority by God (John 5:26-27 - someone gave God His Power and authority? Interesting proposition to say the least).

So John 20:28 doesn't really say unequivocally that Jesus is God, specifically Yahweh, the name of that one true God. But let's say that it does mean that.

With "My Lord and my God", Thomas (John 20:28) exuberantly exclaims the glory of the risen Christ being Thomas' Lord and Thomas' God.

Notice that Thomas' exclamation is up close and personal.

Here's the thing, Rick R, the Apostle Thomas knew "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so Thomas exclaimed that Jesus is YHWH God.

The jesus-non-god-proponent-people have another god named jesus before YHWH God.

It seems to me that you are imposing that upon Thomas.

It is also apparent that you think the same way.

What then do we do with the many verses that declare Jesus had the same God and Father as ourselves (about 10 or so)? Here's one:

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

That sure seems to say Jesus has a God and a Father, specifically the same one as we have. That being the case, how can John 20:17 and John 20:28 fit together? One says "yea" and the other "nay." Which is it?

I showed how I believe John 20:28 doesn't necessarily say Jesus is God which would agree with 20:17. At least I tried. Perhaps now you could tell me why you think John 20:17 says that Jesus is God so as to make it agree with 20:28. If so, who is the God and Father of God?

I've asked the same question to countless Trinitarians over the years and have yet to get a clear answer. Maybe you could break the streak.

To be clear, I love all born again Christians, Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian alike. I'm not committing any brother or sister to eternal death. I can't wait to see all of them in the new earth that's coming...hopefully today! But I'll wait as long as it takes.

God bless.

The below addresses all your questions in the above portion of your post.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus truly God saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly Man as well as His capacity as truly God. We can use context to make the distinction.

When Jesus says "my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God" (John 20:17), then He speaks as truly Man, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

The Father is God, and God does not have a god.

The God the Father is One with the Son of God because the Word of God says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) this the person of the Father is God along with the person of Jesus being God - together in unity with the person of the Holy Spirit of God {YHWH is one eternal God, existing as three distinct and equal persons being Love (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned], Romans 1:7 [Father], John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14], John 15:26 [Spirit], 1 John 4:8 [Love])}.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Apparently, it is pointless trying to argue scripture with those who are thoroughly convinced that God is not who he says he is in his own word.

The nation of Israel knew nothing of this triune God and neither Jesus or his apostles ever once mentioned him.....so because the “weeds” of Jesus parable introduced this idea (only officially adopted into “church” doctrine over 300 years after Jesus was executed) at a time when no one had the power to fight against it, (while men were sleeping) this doctrine swept in despite 300 years of opposition from many within the church itself. It took a pagan Emperor to seal the fate of the church, who after centuries of absolute tyrannical power, gave birth to many rebel daughters, who all kept many of their mother’s false doctrines. The major doctrines of the “church” are based on all those false doctrines that Catholicism adopted from the pagans around them. Israel fell victim to this very thing, for which God punished them most severely. History is merely repeating.

Who created the trinity God? It was the Roman Catholic church.....it is not scriptural or logical and it was not taught in a single passage of scripture. It was craftily woven into ambiguous verses by the foretold apostate “church” which was under the complete control of the one who gave birth to that counterfeit.

It is a divider here as it is everywhere else.....but as can be plainly seen, no amount of arguing will give us a definitive answer. So because it is a divider of those who identify as “Christian”, only Christ himself will be the arbiter of this question of who God really is.....Those who choose the wrong "God" and thereby fail to "do the will of the Father", will lament their decision.

According to Matthew 7:21-23, Christ's decisive ruling will take “many” by surprise as they try to plead their case, but to no avail. His final words to them will be shocking....
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

"NEVER" means "not ever" so those who are in error have not had God or his Christ on side with them from their beginning.

May we be found on the right side of this question because changing the nature of God, by introducing a different deity with Yahweh’s name, and making him into three “gods” (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) who are all equal and co-eternal when there is no such God definitively spoken about in the Bible, means that some of us are going to hear a judgment that they are not expecting.

 

[Keiw]

You most certainly LIED because you contradict accurate scripture by your claim that nowhere in the NT is "the God" used in reference to Jesus, yet 2 Peter 1:1 contains "the God", "tou Theou" (Greek meaning "the God", but not represented precisely in the English), referring to Jesus when Peter wrote "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

LINK TO GREEK/ENGLISH INTERLINEAR

2 Peter 1:1 Interlinear: Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

There is PROOF that you LIED, so your thoughts are corrupt.

The translating of the greek you are using was done by catholicism. No originals remained when the protestants translated. They translated many errors in to fit false council teachings. That is fact. Your bibles are filled with contradictions as well teach 2 different gods.

 

[Keiw]

LINK TO GREEK/ENGLISH INTERLINEAR FOR JOHN 1:1

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The word "Theos" (God), the fourth word from the end of the verse is called an
Anarthrous noun.

1. An anarthrous theos (θεος) can actually refer to God.
2. Articled theos (ο θεος) does not always refer to God.
3. θεος in John 1:1c is qualitative, not indefinite.

From: John 1:1 Anarthrous Theos: The Big Lie of the NWT - Christian Topics

John's writing indicates that Jesus is God.

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

Your thoughts reject the Truth (John 14:6).

You can twist it any way you want, the fact remains-- Jesus is Gods son-not God.

 

[Keiw]

Your unscriptural assertion denies the Word of God.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that Jesus Christ was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

100% for sure the term- all creation is speaking about what occurred at the beginning.
The being God sent speaks at proverbs 8--Tells you he was created, God became especially fond of me. I came to be beside him( God) as his master worker(the one whom God created all other things through. Then he tells you ,you need to listen to him. There is no doubt this is the being sent and was named Jesus as a mortal.
In Psalm 82 that being speaks and asks God to judge the earth.
It is Michael who stood up for the sons of Daniel( Gods chosen) Daniel 12:1

 

[Keiw]

"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” Genesis 1:26)

The "Our image" and the "Our likeness" show that the "Us" is the One True God, YHWH, being the person of God the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of Holy Spirit of God. These persons comprise the "Us".

I showed you what it really means.

 

[Keiw]

"He will reign over the house of Jacob forever" (Luke 1:33).

Jesus' kingship is FOREVER.

You engage in deception again!

Then tell us all what it meant that Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself. Does God have a God?--You would have to teach that. Is God in subjection to anyone?

 

[Keiw]

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus truly God saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly Man as well as His capacity as truly God. We can use context to make the distinction.

The Son of Man has a God.

The Word of God is God.

The Word of God is Jesus (John 1:14).

You are deceived to think Jesus is not YHWH God.

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- proves he is not YHWH.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I posted. However, Stephen didn't go to Heaven. John, writing much later, said no man has ascended into Heaven except Jesus.

Try Reading it ! what did he say ? and what due they say ? Stephen was an Angel ! a messenger from God. He just gave the Key to what he said in Acts.
Oh and Saul seen it all and woke up ! snapped out of it ! This world of delusions and deceptions. so Saul became Paul !

But No ! Such idiots even nowadays reject what Stephen said in Acts ? remember what he said, it's all 100% totally true ! and anyone who rejects one word of what Stephen said is of Satan ! anyone who does not look down on the Star that is Man made ? remember that that so called Star is not of God at all ! and such is exposed by every worthy Christian and if one idolises that Star you are cursed.

The Jews were not serving God at all in fact ! as Stephen pointed it all out, they were totally lost ! and Stephen is totally correct as to God ! Paul came to understand that fact and came out from them. They were under delusions and deceptions, Religion never saved any ones Soul at all.

A big difference between the Religious and the Saved in fact. one knows God and the other is nothing but a dupe under a curse in fact and are of this world, they are owned by this world and that is Slaves for Satan.

 

[keithr]

@Rich R and @keithr

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".
...
JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

If you take Jesus at his word, then he says that he is not God, but he does claim to be God's son. Jesus doesn't refer to himself as "I am"; that expression is just part of a normal sentence. I don't find any evidence in the Bible of Jesus referring to himself by God's name YHVH nor by the "I am" from Exodus 3:14 - the Hebrew word hawyaw, which means 'to exist', 'to be', 'become', 'come to pass', 'happen'.

The "I am" expression, that you think is Jesus saying God's name, in John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") in Greek is ego eimi. The exact same Greek words are used in Matthew 22:32, which is quoting Exodus 3:6:

(32) I am [ego eimi] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

However, Exodus 3:6 is:
(6) Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

where "I am" is the Hebrew word anokiy, meaning just "I" - the "am" is not there but is just inserted by the translators to make it better English.

There are other occurrences of ego eimi where it is also translated as "I am" but clearly the person saying it is not God, e.g.:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Matthew 20:15
Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 1:18-19
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

John the Baptist:
John 1:27
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
Acts 13:25
And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Nobody thinks that the centurion, Zacharias, John the Baptist or Paul were God, yet they all used "ego eimi" in a sentence, so likewise there is no reason to suppose that Jesus was God just because he used the same expression. And this is all before we realise that they were not speaking in Greek, but most likely in Aramaic.

A better translation of John 8:58 would be "I have existed from before Abraham was born", or as the The Living Bible (see below) translates it, "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!".

The Living Bible is a paraphrase ("thought for thought" translation as opposed to a "word for word" translation) of the Old and New Testaments. Its purpose is to say as exactly as possible what the writers of the Scriptures meant, and to say it simply, expanding where necessary for a clear understanding by the modern reader.

 

[Kermos]

If you take Jesus at his word, then he says that he is not God, but he does claim to be God's son. Jesus doesn't refer to himself as "I am"; that expression is just part of a normal sentence. I don't find any evidence in the Bible of Jesus referring to himself by God's name YHVH nor by the "I am" from Exodus 3:14 - the Hebrew word hawyaw, which means 'to exist', 'to be', 'become', 'come to pass', 'happen'.

The "I am" expression, that you think is Jesus saying God's name, in John 8:58 ("Before Abraham was, I am") in Greek is ego eimi. The exact same Greek words are used in Matthew 22:32, which is quoting Exodus 3:6:

(32) I am [ego eimi] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

However, Exodus 3:6 is:
(6) Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

where "I am" is the Hebrew word anokiy, meaning just "I" - the "am" is not there but is just inserted by the translators to make it better English.

There are other occurrences of ego eimi where it is also translated as "I am" but clearly the person saying it is not God, e.g.:

Matthew 8:9
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Matthew 20:15
Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Luke 1:18-19
And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

John the Baptist:
John 1:27
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
Acts 13:25
And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.

Acts 21:39
But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Nobody thinks that the centurion, Zacharias, John the Baptist or Paul were God, yet they all used "ego eimi" in a sentence, so likewise there is no reason to suppose that Jesus was God just because he used the same expression. And this is all before we realise that they were not speaking in Greek, but most likely in Aramaic.

A better translation of John 8:58 would be "I have existed from before Abraham was born", or as the The Living Bible (see below) translates it, "The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!".

The Living Bible is a paraphrase ("thought for thought" translation as opposed to a "word for word" translation) of the Old and New Testaments. Its purpose is to say as exactly as possible what the writers of the Scriptures meant, and to say it simply, expanding where necessary for a clear understanding by the modern reader.

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

According to your very own writing, you disbelieve that Jesus is "I AM". A person abiding in sin is deceived.

Your very first sentence is a lie - a deception of the devil (John 8:48), and the next paragraph is proof.

As clearly demonstrated in the scriptural post to which you replied, Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

We can't see the Father, because our carnal eyes are still glued to the flesh body of Jesus.
The Spirit within the man Jesus, is The Spirit of God sent to earth to declare himself through the body of flesh, named Emanuel,
meaning God with Us.
He walked among us, as he walked with Adam and Eve in the garden.
What did God look like when Adam heard his voice in the cool of the day?
If no man hath heard "his" voice, "speaking of the Father" , then who's voice did Adam hear walking in the garden?
Who's voice did Moses hear? Who's voice did the prophets hear?
My sheep hear my voice...

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

What is the Father's name?

Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be "WHAT NAME" ?

Break it down:

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

What is the mind of Christ Jesus?

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

One God, the Father.. and we IN him, One Lord Jesus Christ and we BY him.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Are we IN God the Father or are we IN Christ Jesus?
Can we be IN both at the same time?

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.
I and my Father are One.

So here is another question...
The fact that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
does this also in fact make Christ God?

In the beginning when God said...
Was it God speaking or Christ speaking?
Is Christ the spokesman of God?
Is Christ God's voice?

When the Lord spoke to the prophets, was it the Father or his Christ speaking?
If no man hath heard God's voice at any time, then it must have been Christ speaking.
Is God Christ?
If Christ means the anointed one, then Did God anoint himself?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

continued...

I suspect that you are fully aware of the answers to

continued...

 

[Kermos]

I have questions..
I have lots of questions.

Jesus said he did not come to judge...
Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.


Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.


Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Back to the beginning...
Is the Word of the Lord, God the Father?
Who created the heavens and the earth? In the beginning, God Said...
Is this God's Word?
And if this is God's Word, then what is higher than this?
What is more powerful or what has more authority than God's Word?

God's Word is his promise, his truth, his law..
But is God's Word, God?
And if Jesus is the Word of God made flesh and dwelt among us, is this indeed God walking among mankind?

I look at it like this:
God the Father, who is the Potter, took some dust from the earth, which is Mary, and formed a vessel which he called Jesus,
and poured himself, ie: His spirit, His Word, His Truth, His works, everything the Father is, he poured into this vessel he called Jesus.
This Jesus is a physical earthy being. The Body is not God for God is Spirit. But the body made in his own image, God calls his son.
Because that which is in this clay vessel is an exact replica of himself, the Father.

I and my Father are one.

I've wrestled with this a long time. I understand both sides of the argument.
I'm not here to argue.
I'm just sharing why I believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

You just have to weigh the evidence and find the balance.
God in the flesh did not come to judge but to save.
God in the spirit will come and judge us by the Word that was spoken through his son, which was God in the flesh.
Whether you want to say you will see God face to face or Jesus face to face, it is one and the same.

Just sharing
Hugs

your questions because you diligently quoted applicable scripture!

Nonetheless, it was a blessing to read your posts.

 

[keithr]

Lord Jesus says "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

If you believe that Jesus was referring to God's name, then Jesus was saying "unless you believe YHVH" - but I think we both know Jesus was not trying to say that!

WEB: (24) I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

The "he" may not be in the Greek, but a sensible translation into English should include it (as the KJV does). In context of the conversation he is having, Jesus is referring back to who he had told them he was, John 8:12 (WEB):

(12) Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”​

Jesus also said, John 8:17-18 (WEB):

(17) It’s also written in your law that the testimony of two people is valid.
(18) I am one who testifies about myself, and the Father who sent me testifies about me.”​

where he is clearly distinguishing himself from God, saying that Jesus and God makes two witnesses, not one.

According to your very own writing, you disbelieve that Jesus is "I AM". A person abiding in sin is deceived.

"Jesus is I am" doesn't make sense - it's just bad English, a bad translation due to the doctrinal bias of the translator.

Your very first sentence is a lie - a deception of the devil (John 8:48), and the next paragraph is proof.

John 8:48

(48) Then the Jews answered him, “Don’t we say well that you are a Samaritan, and have a demon?”​

The Jews falsely accused Jesus of being a Samaritan and having a demon. The following verse comes to mind :

Matthew 10:25

(25) It is enough for the disciple that he be like his teacher, and the servant like his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more those of his household!​

So are you claiming that Jesus did not claim to be the Son of God? He certainly never claimed to be God; he never even claimed to be equal with/to God, Philippians 2:6 (WEB):

(6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,​

As clearly demonstrated in the scriptural post to which you replied, Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Saying that you existed before somebody else was born does not mean that you have existed for eternity past. Verse 58 does not mention God's name. Take the verse in context:

(53) Are you greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The prophets died. Who do you make yourself out to be?”
(54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.
(55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.
(56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.”
(57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
(58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM. ”​

Jesus said that Abraham foresaw the coming of the Messiah and rejoiced in that knowledge. So the Jews accused Jesus of not being old enough to have met Abraham and know what he thought or said. Jesus replied saying that he was alive even before Abraham was born.

 

[PinSeeker]

If you believe that Jesus was referring to God's name...

Kermos doesn't believe, Keith, that Jesus was merely "referring to God's name," but, rather, he is stating ~ correctly ~ that Jesus was assigning that Name ~ "I AM" ~ to Himself, stating incontrovertibly that "I AM" is His name, as well as acknowledging certain characteristics about Himself that are only true of YHVH, the great I am, namely that He is eternal (of eternity past and eternity future) and unchanging (which the writer of Hebrews states, too, namely that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever).

The Jews falsely accused Jesus of being a Samaritan and having a demon...

At first, they did, for sure, but when He clarified Himself in John 8:58 (see immediately above), then they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy, for claiming to be YHVH. They knew exactly what He was saying/doing.

Jesus said that Abraham foresaw the coming of the Messiah and rejoiced in that knowledge.

Well not that he "foresaw" His coming, really, but that He believed that God was going to send a Savior. As you surely know, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Hebrews 11).

So the Jews accused Jesus of not being old enough to have met Abraham and know what he thought or said.

No, the Jews knew Jesus to be claiming He was YHVH, and... Yeah, again, see above.

Jesus replied saying that he was alive even before Abraham was born.

Nope. See above

The violence the Watchtower folks have inflicted (tried to, anyway) upon the Word of God is just astonishing. But ~ all glory and praise be to God ~ the grass withers, and the flower fades, but the Word of our God endures forever.

 

[Ziggy]

Then tell us all what it meant that Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself. Does God have a God?--You would have to teach that. Is God in subjection to anyone?

That's a good question.

What kingdom was Jesus handing back to God the Father?

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Fast forward to heaven...
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So many kingdoms..

When Peter tried to stall Jesus from going to Jerusalem, Jesus rebuked him and called him Satan, saying:
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

hmm..

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Again Peter tried to interfere when Judus and company came to take Jesus. Peter used his sword and cut off a man's ear.

So we know that Jesus' kingdom was not a part of this world.

What is a kingdom?
If we look at a kingdom as a sphere of authority or influence, what authority or influence did Jesus have on earth?
It was his 12 Apostles. Those that were no longer of the world, nevertheless still in it.
When did they sit at His table in His Kingdom?
On the night of Passover, when he put his life in the Father's hands.
When did Jesus give his Apostles kingdoms?
When he sent them out to gather the 12 tribes of Israel scattered around the region and the world.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I and my Father are One.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Then tell us all what it meant that Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself. Does God have a God?--You would have to teach that. Is God in subjection to anyone?

I believe when Jesus laid down his life, this is when his kingdom was handed back to the Father. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus subjected himself to death with the foreknowledge that death could not hold him.
When Jesus rose from the dead, the last enemy destroyed was death. He cast off the corruptible sin man and put on the incorruptable sinless man.
He shook off mortality and put on immortality, and as it was written, Death was swallowed up in victory.

Is God in subjection to anyone?
Yes,
Himself.

Hugs

 

[Kermos]

Apparently, it is pointless trying to argue scripture with those who are thoroughly convinced that God is not who he says he is in his own word.

The nation of Israel knew nothing of this triune God and neither Jesus or his apostles ever once mentioned him.....so because the “weeds” of Jesus parable introduced this idea (only officially adopted into “church” doctrine over 300 years after Jesus was executed) at a time when no one had the power to fight against it, (while men were sleeping) this doctrine swept in despite 300 years of opposition from many within the church itself. It took a pagan Emperor to seal the fate of the church, who after centuries of absolute tyrannical power, gave birth to many rebel daughters, who all kept many of their mother’s false doctrines. The major doctrines of the “church” are based on all those false doctrines that Catholicism adopted from the pagans around them. Israel fell victim to this very thing, for which God punished them most severely. History is merely repeating.

Who created the trinity God? It was the Roman Catholic church.....it is not scriptural or logical and it was not taught in a single passage of scripture. It was craftily woven into ambiguous verses by the foretold apostate “church” which was under the complete control of the one who gave birth to that counterfeit.

It is a divider here as it is everywhere else.....but as can be plainly seen, no amount of arguing will give us a definitive answer. So because it is a divider of those who identify as “Christian”, only Christ himself will be the arbiter of this question of who God really is.....Those who choose the wrong "God" and thereby fail to "do the will of the Father", will lament their decision.

According to Matthew 7:21-23, Christ's decisive ruling will take “many” by surprise as they try to plead their case, but to no avail. His final words to them will be shocking....
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

"NEVER" means "not ever" so those who are in error have not had God or his Christ on side with them from their beginning.

May we be found on the right side of this question because changing the nature of God, by introducing a different deity with Yahweh’s name, and making him into three “gods” (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) who are all equal and co-eternal when there is no such God definitively spoken about in the Bible, means that some of us are going to hear a judgment that they are not expecting.

Based on your first sentence, you prove that you disbelieve the Word of God which states "so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Rich R]

The below addresses all your questions in the above portion of your post.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Luke 1:34-35 says Jesus would be the Son of God. Read the end of verse 35 very carefully. The previous verses also say Jesus would be descended from David. David was a human. God did not descend from anybody let alone a human.

In general, Luke is saying that Jesus would born by the miracle of God implanting a sperm in Mary's womb. That would mean that, like Adam, Jesus started out perfect. Adam chocked but Jesus didn't. Jesus, also like Adam, had free will. He could have disobeyed God at any time, but he didn't. That's why it could be said he was tempted just like us and that he shared our infirmities. He was certainly not a "mere" man.

John 8:58 says nothing about God. It talks about Jesus and Abraham. There are many other people in the Bible who said the words, "I am." None of them are God either. John 8:58 must mean something else.

John 20:28. I already covered the meaning of the word "god" to the Ancient Near Easterner. I also showed how the scriptures (Corinthians) say there are many gods. Not all gods are Yahweh though. There's only one Yahweh.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus truly God saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) includes that the person of Jesus and the person of the Father are the One True God.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly Man as well as His capacity as truly God. We can use context to make the distinction.

When Jesus says "my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God" (John 20:17), then He speaks as truly Man, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

I don't see the phrases "he speaks as truly man" nor "God persons" in the scriptures. I wouldn't want to build a doctrine on them. The very idea of a god-man, though often found in Pagan literature, is never found once in the scriptures. It's a terrible phrase to apply to God's only begotten son.

Romans 8:29 says Jesus was the first born among many brothers. I don't see that saying Jesus is God. Read what's written and the book will make way more sense.

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the image of God. Jesus once asked whose image was on a coin. The answer was Caesar's image. The coin was not Caesar.

John 3:3-8 talks about being born again. Nothing there about Jesus being God. Just read it without introducing extraneous ideas.

The Father is God, and God does not have a god.

Precisely! That is why the son is not God. If the son were God and the son has a God, then by sheer logic God would have a God.

The God the Father is One with the Son of God because the Word of God says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) this the person of the Father is God along with the person of Jesus being God - together in unity with the person of the Holy Spirit of God {YHWH is one eternal God, existing as three distinct and equal persons being Love (Genesis 1:26 [plurality], Isaiah 48:16 [all three mentioned], Romans 1:7 [Father], John 8:58 [Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14], John 15:26 [Spirit], 1 John 4:8 [Love])}.

John 10:30 says Jesus and God are one. Later in John 17:11 & 17:21 it says we are one with God. Maybe being "one" doesn't mean the two things are actually somehow one thing. It'd be worth considering. Otherwise we have to say we are God also. Not something I'd care to say!

Genesis 1:26 does not mention Jesus nor the holy ghost. If it did say Jesus was God, it would create many problems with verses I've already mentioned. One part of God know things other parts don't know (Mark 13:32 specifically says the son does not know something the Father does know)? One part is good but the other isn't (Luke 18:19), though supposedly they are the same? have different wills (John 5:30, Luke 22:42)? How can these be made to agree with Jesus actually being God. Again, the only way to do that is to ignore them or twist words and grammar beyond anything recognizable as our God given common sense.

Who is the "us" in Genesis 1:26. Study the "heavenly host." I'd suggest you start with Luke 2:13. Hint: it has a lot to do with angels and other spirit beings God created. It's a really neat study. I think you'd get blessed.

Isaiah 48:16 mentioning three persons somehow makes them actually one person? Daniel 3:16 mentions Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Are they actually God?

Romans 1:7 specifically calls God our Father and Jesus our Lord. God is certainly our Father and Jesus is our Lord, but why does that make them the same person? Two people, a God and a Lord. To make them the same person would again require us to abandon the meaning of words and grammar. If we did that, we could probably make the Bible say God is a Martian.

John 15:26 does mention God, Jesus and the comforter. That makes them no more one person than Daniel makes Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego one person. When the Bible speaks of three people it is talking about three people, not one. It often talks about one, so God does know the difference. We should also. It's not that difficult.

In general, the trinity problem arises when we fail to read what's written without injecting outside ideas. Most of the trinity proof verses say nothing at all about a trinity. Too many read a verse that talks about three people and immediately make those three somehow actually one person. Too many read John 1:1 as, "In the beginning was Jesus. Jesus was with God and Jesus was God." Well, that's just not what God inspired John to write. God used the Greek word "logos" not "Jesus." Few take the time to understand what the word "logos" actually means. Suffice it to say that substituting mans words for words that God used is not the best idea out there.

I was Trinitarian at one time and now I'm not. I've seen it from both sides. Though I supposedly believed the trinity (gotta fit in you know) it never made one iota of sense to me. It can't make sense to anyone. God designed our brains in such a way that it couldn't make any sense. When I finally learned and believed the simple truth that there is only one God and that He sent His only begotten son to save me, the Bible made way more sense and the story went from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor. Of course I love seeing other Christians experience the same realization, but some do and some don't. Doesn't change my love and willingness to serve all my brothers and sisters in Christ. That includes you my brother!

God bless

 

[Kermos]

The translating of the greek you are using was done by catholicism. No originals remained when the protestants translated. They translated many errors in to fit false council teachings. That is fact. Your bibles are filled with contradictions as well teach 2 different gods.

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the following is Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.