A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

100% for sure the term- all creation is speaking about what occurred at the beginning.
The being God sent speaks at proverbs 8--Tells you he was created, God became especially fond of me. I came to be beside him( God) as his master worker(the one whom God created all other things through. Then he tells you ,you need to listen to him. There is no doubt this is the being sent and was named Jesus as a mortal.
In Psalm 82 that being speaks and asks God to judge the earth.
It is Michael who stood up for the sons of Daniel( Gods chosen) Daniel 12:1

100% for sure, "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

You are 100% wrong that Jesus was created.

Neither Proverbs 8 nor Psalm 82 nor Daniel 12:1 indicate that Jesus is part of creation. You cannot provide a quote of any of those passages stating that Jesus is part of the creation at the time of Adam nor prior to Adam. You take Colossians 1:15 out of context, and you make evil assertions against Jesus based on your thoughts.

The prior post that God had me make to you shows how Jesus represents Himself as truly God at his discretion and truly Man at his discretion.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that Jesus Christ was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Rich R]

• 
  
  • Colossians 1:15 does not state that Jesus Christ was created.

You're right my friend! Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus was created. The word "created," though used elsewhere (meaning God knows that word), is not used in this verse.

Col 1:15,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
​

firstborn - comes from two Greek words: proto = first & tikto = to produce, to bring forth.

Who produced and brought forth God? I think God just was, is and will be. Nobody produced God.

This is probably not the best verse to use in trying to prove Jesus is God. It pretty much says just the opposite. God always was, but Jesus was born. Hard to make them the same person with that in mind.

 

[Kermos]

You're right my friend! Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus was created. The word "created," though used elsewhere (meaning God knows that word), is not used in this verse.

Col 1:15,

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

firstborn - comes from two Greek words: proto = first & tikto = to produce, to bring forth.

Who produced and brought forth God? I think God just was, is and will be. Nobody produced God.

This is probably not the best verse to use in trying to prove Jesus is God. It pretty much says just the opposite. God always was, but Jesus was born. Hard to make them the same person with that in mind.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

Rick R, see, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Context, my friend, context.

@Keiw, it would be nice if you read this post as well.

 

[Rich R]

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

Rick R, see, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Context, my friend, context.

@Keiw, it would be nice if you read this post as well.

Yes, Colossians is talking about the new creation of Christ in us, the body of Christ. It is not talking about the creation of Genesis 1. Good point.

I'm not sure who said Jesus was created, but it wasn't me for sure. As you said, he was the firstborn which does not mean created. Two different things.

Col 1:16,

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
​

The first "by" is the Greek word "en" which basically means all things were created in him. Many translations say "in" instead of "by" and they are more correct. A close study of the Greek word "en" will reveal that it means all things were created with Jesus as the focal point. Jesus was the focal point of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1.

The second "by" is the Greek word "dia" which literally means "through." It indicates agency. Jesus was God's agent here upon earth. Check out how the Hebrews understood agency. To them a man's agent was basically identical to the man who sent him. Whatever the agent did or said was considered to be what the one who sent him said or did. I'm not making this up.

The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowsky, G. Wigoder, 1986, p. 15.

“Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Craig S. Keener on John 5:30.

“Jesus is thus a faithful shaliach, or agent; Jewish law taught that the man’s agent was as a man himself (backed by his full authority), to the extent that the agent faithfully represented him.
​

The idea that Jesus was God's agent should be used instead of Jesus being God. The sender was God and the agent He sent was Jesus. When you consider the meaning of agency, it is easy to understand Jesus' statement, "He who has seen me has seen the Father." The Jews would have had no trouble understanding that. Jesus was God's agent, the image of God, the one who ALWAYS did God's will, but none of that makes him God.

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
​

This verse screams "agency." An agent and his sender would undoubtedly have different wills, but a true agent will ignore his own and carry out that of his sender. This is a beautiful example of Jesus being true to his Father despite his own wishes. Jesus' will was not to die. He asked God if that cup could be passed up (three time actually) but he said that he'd ignore his own will and follow that of his sender, God (Luke 22:42). What a guy! Hero of heroes! I'm sure glad he made that decision!

And then when I think he did it by his free will to save a moron like me, WOW! What can you say about that? There are no words for that much love.

Would it be a big deal if God obeyed Himself all the time? I wouldn't think so. Would it be a big deal if a man who was tempted just like me and suffered the same infirmities as me obeyed God? Incredible fete!

Would it be a big deal if God believed Himself that He'd raise Himself from the dead? Again, I wouldn't think so. But what about a man tempted like me and shared my infirmities believing God would raise him from the dead? Now that's really amazing!

Jesus is not a "mere" man. In truth, no man is a "mere" man.

Ps 8:5,

For thou hast made him (man) a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
​

"Angels" is the Hebrew word "elohiym." Amazing as it may seem, all men were created just a little below a god. Remember I said the Bible talks about many gods? Well man was made just below the other gods. Not too bad, eh?

God put man in charge of the earth in Genesis 1:28. That truth has profound implications in our discussion. Why? Man got us into trouble and it would take a man to get us out of trouble. God couldn't just take back the dominion, come down to earth right away, wave some kind of magical wand and make things right again. God was NOT in charge of the world then, nor is He in charge now. He will be, but not yet. When He is in charge the world will be a much better place. We're waiting for Jesus to return and set up the millennial kingdom where righteousness rules, not man's depravity. Something to look forward to for sure!

God bless

 

[Kermos]

You can twist it any way you want, the fact remains-- Jesus is Gods son-not God.

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

LINK TO GREEK/ENGLISH INTERLINEAR FOR JOHN 1:1

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The word "Theos" (God), the fourth word from the end of the verse is called an
Anarthrous noun.

1. An anarthrous theos (θεος) can actually refer to God.
2. Articled theos (ο θεος) does not always refer to God.
3. θεος in John 1:1c is qualitative, not indefinite.

From: John 1:1 Anarthrous Theos: The Big Lie of the NWT - Christian Topics

John's writing indicates that Jesus is God.

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

Your thoughts reject the Truth (John 14:6).

 

[Kermos]

I showed you what it really means.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The "Us" refers to "God", so the "Us" is "God". The "Us" is exclusively the One True God.

The word "God" in Hebrew is "Elohim", and Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Thus the plurality of "Us" match precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

You disbelieve in Who Jesus says Jesus is:

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

Then tell us all what it meant that Jesus hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself. Does God have a God?--You would have to teach that. Is God in subjection to anyone?

God does not have a god, and your claim about teaching that God has a god are your thoughts, not mine nor God's.

In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Paul appears to be saying that the Son of Man will stop reigning, but the Son of God will continue reigning - but do not quote me on this.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

Now, you explain why God's messenger named Gabriel is wrong according to you when Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

 

[Keiw]

That's a good question.

What kingdom was Jesus handing back to God the Father?

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Fast forward to heaven...
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Luk 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So many kingdoms..

When Peter tried to stall Jesus from going to Jerusalem, Jesus rebuked him and called him Satan, saying:
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

hmm..

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Again Peter tried to interfere when Judus and company came to take Jesus. Peter used his sword and cut off a man's ear.

So we know that Jesus' kingdom was not a part of this world.

What is a kingdom?
If we look at a kingdom as a sphere of authority or influence, what authority or influence did Jesus have on earth?
It was his 12 Apostles. Those that were no longer of the world, nevertheless still in it.
When did they sit at His table in His Kingdom?
On the night of Passover, when he put his life in the Father's hands.
When did Jesus give his Apostles kingdoms?
When he sent them out to gather the 12 tribes of Israel scattered around the region and the world.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I and my Father are One.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.



I believe when Jesus laid down his life, this is when his kingdom was handed back to the Father. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Jesus subjected himself to death with the foreknowledge that death could not hold him.
When Jesus rose from the dead, the last enemy destroyed was death. He cast off the corruptible sin man and put on the incorruptable sinless man.
He shook off mortality and put on immortality, and as it was written, Death was swallowed up in victory.

Is God in subjection to anyone?
Yes,
Himself.

Hugs

There is only one kingdom. If you listen to Jesus--Lords prayer Thy( Father) kingdom come. It belongs to the Father. It will come to the earth=Gods kingdom rule. Itwasnt no part of this world back then. He received his crown here at Rev 6.= 1914

 

[Keiw]

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the following is Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

The New world translation corrected the errors after many men studied and information became more abundant. Otherwise this couldnt be a truth-Daniel 12:4. No one else made corrections.

 

[Keiw]

100% for sure, "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

You are 100% wrong that Jesus was created.

Neither Proverbs 8 nor Psalm 82 nor Daniel 12:1 indicate that Jesus is part of creation. You cannot provide a quote of any of those passages stating that Jesus is part of the creation at the time of Adam nor prior to Adam. You take Colossians 1:15 out of context, and you make evil assertions against Jesus based on your thoughts.

The prior post that God had me make to you shows how Jesus represents Himself as truly God at his discretion and truly Man at his discretion.

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• 
  
  
  • Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
  • Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
    • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
    • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
    Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.
    • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God.
    • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of truly Man.
  • Colossians 1:15 does not state that Jesus Christ was created.
  • Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

Creation occurred at the beginning not at a crucifixion.
The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus)-- proves he is not YHWH.

 

[Keiw]

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

Rick R, see, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

Context, my friend, context.

@Keiw, it would be nice if you read this post as well.

I did read it. You are wrong.
Created through him and for him, by the one who is greater than him=YHWH-the only true God.

 

[Keiw]

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

LINK TO GREEK/ENGLISH INTERLINEAR FOR JOHN 1:1

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The word "Theos" (God), the fourth word from the end of the verse is called an
Anarthrous noun.

1. An anarthrous theos (θεος) can actually refer to God.
2. Articled theos (ο θεος) does not always refer to God.
3. θεος in John 1:1c is qualitative, not indefinite.

From: John 1:1 Anarthrous Theos: The Big Lie of the NWT - Christian Topics

John's writing indicates that Jesus is God.

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

Your thoughts reject the Truth (John 14:6).

A already told you god small g is not calling that one God. But in plain english your second line at John 1:1 reads--And God was with God--that is more than 1 God.

 

[Keiw]

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The "Us" refers to "God", so the "Us" is "God". The "Us" is exclusively the One True God.

The word "God" in Hebrew is "Elohim", and Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Thus the plurality of "Us" match precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

You disbelieve in Who Jesus says Jesus is:

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

No the us = YHWH and his master worker--Theone whom he created all other things through. The Hebrew rule is Elohim is never plural for the true God, that is fact.

 

[Keiw]

God does not have a god, and your claim about teaching that God has a god are your thoughts, not mine nor God's.

In 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, Paul appears to be saying that the Son of Man will stop reigning, but the Son of God will continue reigning - but do not quote me on this.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

Now, you explain why God's messenger named Gabriel is wrong according to you when Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Michael is Chief over all angels, thus ruler over all mortals as well. But He hands the kingdom back to his God and Father and subjects himself. That is not what God does. God is king of eternity, not in subjection to any ever.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

You can twist it any way you want, the fact remains-- Jesus is Gods son-not God.

There is no twisting:

John's writing indicates that Jesus is God.

You have two gods because you claim Jesus is another god.

Absolutely! Religion claiming they serve God by "following Jesus,"
and that "Jesus is a god," is disobedience to God:

Exo 20:2 "I AM The LORD thy God, which have brought
thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo_20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods Before ME."​

Deu 5:6 "I AM The LORD thy God, which brought thee
out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before ME."
​

In addition, it is Very Dangerous to ignore God's:

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures That "JESUS Is God!"

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Based on your first sentence, you prove that you disbelieve the Word of God which states "so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

And there you have it.....no amount of scripture will convince a person who cannot acknowledge the clear scriptural evidence. It’s a certain kind of blindness.....but not unexpected.

We will let Jesus tell us HIS truth when he brings down his judgment.....shall we? Then we will all know.

 

[Ziggy]

God setting the captives free from Egypt is an allegory of Jesus setting man free from sin.

Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Are there 2 gospels?
One for God and one for Christ?

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Take a moment to rest your weary minds.
Give Praise to the Lord!
Amen
Hugs
Happy St. Patrick's Day

 

[PinSeeker]

And there you have it.....no amount of scripture will convince a person who cannot acknowledge the clear scriptural evidence. It’s a certain kind of blindness.....but not unexpected.

Right back at you, AJ... every word.

We will let Jesus tell us HIS truth when he brings down his judgment.....shall we? Then we will all know.

Well, now that would be contrary to Jesus's own mandate, His commission ~ which of course He couldn't issue with any real credibility if He were just a mere man and not God in the flesh ~ wouldn't it? Yes, quite contrary...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Kermos]

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- proves he is not YHWH.

Lord Jesus says "The Lord said to my Lord" (Matthew 22:44) thus proving that God is internally self communicative just like in Genesis 1:26.

Jesus, truly God, expressed His equality with God.

Your deception is exposed again.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos doesn't believe, Keith, that Jesus was merely "referring to God's name," but, rather, he is stating ~ correctly ~ that Jesus was assigning that Name ~ "I AM" ~ to Himself, stating incontrovertibly that "I AM" is His name, as well as acknowledging certain characteristics about Himself that are only true of YHVH, the great I am, namely that He is eternal (of eternity past and eternity future) and unchanging (which the writer of Hebrews states, too, namely that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever).


At first, they did, for sure, but when He clarified Himself in John 8:58 (see immediately above), then they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy, for claiming to be YHVH. They knew exactly what He was saying/doing.


Well not that he "foresaw" His coming, really, but that He believed that God was going to send a Savior. As you surely know, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Hebrews 11).


No, the Jews knew Jesus to be claiming He was YHVH, and... Yeah, again, see above.


Nope. See above

The violence the Watchtower have inflicted (tried to, anyway) upon the Word of God is just astonishing. But ~ all glory and praise be to God ~ the grass withers, and the flower fades, but the Word of our God endures forever.

Magnificently written to @keithr, PinSeeker, and graciously written at that.