A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Keiw]

There is no twisting:

Absolutely! Religion claiming they serve God by "following Jesus,"
and that "Jesus is a god," is disobedience to God:

Exo 20:2 "I AM The LORD thy God, which have brought
thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo_20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods Before ME."​

Deu 5:6 "I AM The LORD thy God, which brought thee
out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before ME."
​

In addition, it is Very Dangerous to ignore God's:

500 Plain And Clear Scriptures That "JESUS Is God!"

GRACE And Peace...

LORD in the ot = YHWH(Jehovah) not Jesus.

 

[Keiw]

Lord Jesus says "The Lord said to my Lord" (Matthew 22:44) thus proving that God is internally self communicative just like in Genesis 1:26.

Jesus, truly God, expressed His equality with God.

Your deception is exposed again.

He said--The Father is greater than i)--no equality.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr

Confusion about Jesus mentioned near the word "creation" in Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 abounds, but this compilation clarifies the matter scripturally and Spiritually. First, here are the passages.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14).

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15),

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).
• Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:
  • "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).
  • "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).
  Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.
  • In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.
  • Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
  • In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).
• Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.
• Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.
• Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

He tells you he was created at Proverbs 8-- you dont know him.

 

[Rich R]

The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus) -- proves he is not YHWH.

It's not possible to prove a negative, so I'll try to prove the positive, i.e. that calling Jesus Lord does not of necessity make him God.

1Cor 8:5,

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and - lords),
​

So we see there are more lords than the Lord Jesus Christ. That means that calling someone Lord does not automatically make that person God. We have to investigate further.

There are two words in the OT that are translated as "Lord," adoni and adonai. There's just one letter difference, the 'a', but it has profound implications. The word "adoni" is always used of human rulers. It is never applied to God. In contrast, "Adonai" (sometimes written "Adonay") always refers to God and never to humans.

It's not an easy study, but aren't we supposed to be workman of God's word as it says in 2 Timothy 2:15? Sure we are, so sometimes we have to roll up our sleeves and dig into it.

Here's some stuff from Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1):

Why is the Messiah called adoni (my lord) and never adonai (my Lord God)?

“Adonai and Adoni are variations of Masoretic pointing to distinguish divine reference from human.”

Adonai is referred to God but Adoni to human superiors.

Adoni — ref. to men: my lord, my master [see Ps. 110:1]
Adonai — ref. to God…Lord (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, under adon [= lord]).

“The form ADONI (‘my lord’), a royal title (I Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI (‘my Lord’) used of Yahweh.” “ADONAI — the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adonai [with short vowel] = my lords” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).

“Lord in the OT is used to translate ADONAI when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word…has a suffix [with special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction…between divine and human appellative” (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, “Lord,” Vol. 3, p. 137).​

​

“Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the OT…Adoni [is] addressed to human beings (Gen. 44:7, Num. 32:25, II Kings 2:19 [etc.]). We have to assume that the word adonai received its special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e., adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as adonai, [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [with short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from human lords” (Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, p. 531).

“The lengthening of the ā on Adonai [the Lord God] may be traced to the concern of the Masoretes to mark the word as sacred by a small external sign” (Theological Dictionary of the OT, “Adon,” p. 63 and Theological Dictionary of the NT, III, 1060ff. n.109).

“The form ‘to my lord,’ l’adoni, is never used in the OT as a divine reference…the generally accepted fact that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine references (adonai) from human references (adoni)” (Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the OT, p. 22) (Herbert Bateman, “Psalm 110:1 and the NT,” Bibliothecra Sacra, Oct.-Dec., 1992, p. 438).​

Perhaps Psalm 110:1 is not such a good verse to prove the trinity. Actually the Bible itself is not a good book to prove the trinity. Have you noticed that none of the words used to prove the trinity are not actually the Bible? They are all introduced from other sources, mostly from Pagan sources. The words "trinity," "same essence," "homoousios," "100% God and 100% man," "the man part," "three persons in one," are simply not found in the scriptures. I don't understand why that doesn't sound an alarm to every student of God's word. Sure seems like it ought to have some bearing on the matter. At least to me.

While there are no verses that directly call Jesus God, there are many that call him a man.

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
​

In contrast to these 6 verses that plainly state Jesus is a man, you will search in vain for such a clear statement that Jesus is God or a god-man. I'm sorry, but I didn't write the book. I'm just pointing it out.

Then you are going have to answer to the question of who is the God of God. If Jesus is God and the scriptures declare Jesus had a God, then we must say God has a God.

Verses that say Jesus had a God: (How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?)

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus and us share the same God).​

Rom 15:6,

that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

2 Cor 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;​

2 Cor 11:31.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

Eph 1:17,

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Rev 1:6 (ERV),

and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

Rev 3:12,

He that overcometh, I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. (Four times in one little verse!)
​

Unless we throw out a bunch of verses, we must conclude Jesus had a God. You might notice Jesus also has the same Father as you and I. So we all have the God of God as our Father? The logic quickly degenerates into nonsense if we go that route, but there is no problem is we simply accept that Jesus is the Son of God (used about 50 times) and not "God the Son" (used 0 times). Should we accept that Jesus in not the same as Yahweh all the problems dissolve and all verses are in complete agreement. Otherwise, we end up with many glaring contradictions.

I will readily admit there are some verses that could be taken as a trinity. But then what do we do with the many clear verses that would definitely preclude a trinity? You can't ignore them. I've come t the conclusion that the many clear verses greatly outweigh the few unclear verses, that Jesus is, as the scriptures themselves declare, the Son of God. If we say a son can be His own Father, what's to stop us from saying God is Martian? Once we abandon the normal usage of simple words like "father" and "son" the sky is the limit!

God bless you!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

LORD in the ot = YHWH(Jehovah) not Jesus.

Correction:

Gen 19:24 "Then The LORD (Jehovah, The SON) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire From The LORD (Jehovah, The Father) out of heaven"
+
500 Plain And Clear Scriptures For The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[PinSeeker]

He tells you he was created at Proverbs 8...

Oh, my. Nope.

Wisdom and understanding are being poetically personified in Proverbs 8, Keiw. And, clearly the personification of this very desirable thing is as a woman. This is clearly evident at the opening of the chapter:

"Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud..."

And God was never, ever without wisdom, even from eternity past.

With that said, Jesus is wisdom personified: He Himself says that He is the truth (as well as the way and the life). And the clear implication here is that Jesus is eternal, from eternity past to eternity future.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keiw]

It's not possible to prove a negative, so I'll try to prove the positive, i.e. that calling Jesus Lord does not of necessity make him God.

1Cor 8:5,

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and - lords),
​

So we see there are more lords than the Lord Jesus Christ. That means that calling someone Lord does not automatically make that person God. We have to investigate further.

There are two words in the OT that are translated as "Lord," adoni and adonai. There's just one letter difference, the 'a', but it has profound implications. The word "adoni" is always used of human rulers. It is never applied to God. In contrast, "Adonai" (sometimes written "Adonay") always refers to God and never to humans.

It's not an easy study, but aren't we supposed to be workman of God's word as it says in 2 Timothy 2:15? Sure we are, so sometimes we have to roll up our sleeves and dig into it.

Here's some stuff from Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1):

Why is the Messiah called adoni (my lord) and never adonai (my Lord God)?

“Adonai and Adoni are variations of Masoretic pointing to distinguish divine reference from human.”

Adonai is referred to God but Adoni to human superiors.

Adoni — ref. to men: my lord, my master [see Ps. 110:1]
Adonai — ref. to God…Lord (Brown, Driver, Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, under adon [= lord]).

“The form ADONI (‘my lord’), a royal title (I Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title ADONAI (‘my Lord’) used of Yahweh.” “ADONAI — the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adonai [with short vowel] = my lords” (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, “Lord,” p. 157).

“Lord in the OT is used to translate ADONAI when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word…has a suffix [with special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction…between divine and human appellative” (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, “Lord,” Vol. 3, p. 137).​

​

“Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the OT…Adoni [is] addressed to human beings (Gen. 44:7, Num. 32:25, II Kings 2:19 [etc.]). We have to assume that the word adonai received its special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e., adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as adonai, [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [with short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from human lords” (Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, p. 531).

“The lengthening of the ā on Adonai [the Lord God] may be traced to the concern of the Masoretes to mark the word as sacred by a small external sign” (Theological Dictionary of the OT, “Adon,” p. 63 and Theological Dictionary of the NT, III, 1060ff. n.109).

“The form ‘to my lord,’ l’adoni, is never used in the OT as a divine reference…the generally accepted fact that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine references (adonai) from human references (adoni)” (Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the OT, p. 22) (Herbert Bateman, “Psalm 110:1 and the NT,” Bibliothecra Sacra, Oct.-Dec., 1992, p. 438).​

Perhaps Psalm 110:1 is not such a good verse to prove the trinity. Actually the Bible itself is not a good book to prove the trinity. Have you noticed that none of the words used to prove the trinity are not actually the Bible? They are all introduced from other sources, mostly from Pagan sources. The words "trinity," "same essence," "homoousios," "100% God and 100% man," "the man part," "three persons in one," are simply not found in the scriptures. I don't understand why that doesn't sound an alarm to every student of God's word. Sure seems like it ought to have some bearing on the matter. At least to me.

While there are no verses that directly call Jesus God, there are many that call him a man.

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
​

In contrast to these 6 verses that plainly state Jesus is a man, you will search in vain for such a clear statement that Jesus is God or a god-man. I'm sorry, but I didn't write the book. I'm just pointing it out.

Then you are going have to answer to the question of who is the God of God. If Jesus is God and the scriptures declare Jesus had a God, then we must say God has a God.

Verses that say Jesus had a God: (How can Jesus “be God” and “have a God” at the same time?)

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus and us share the same God).​

Rom 15:6,

that with one accord ye may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

2 Cor 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;​

2 Cor 11:31.

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.​

Eph 1:17,

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Rev 1:6 (ERV),

and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.​

Rev 3:12,

He that overcometh, I (Jesus) will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. (Four times in one little verse!)
​

Unless we throw out a bunch of verses, we must conclude Jesus had a God. You might notice Jesus also has the same Father as you and I. So we all have the God of God as our Father? The logic quickly degenerates into nonsense if we go that route, but there is no problem is we simply accept that Jesus is the Son of God (used about 50 times) and not "God the Son" (used 0 times). Should we accept that Jesus in not the same as Yahweh all the problems dissolve and all verses are in complete agreement. Otherwise, we end up with many glaring contradictions.

I will readily admit there are some verses that could be taken as a trinity. But then what do we do with the many clear verses that would definitely preclude a trinity? You can't ignore them. I've come t the conclusion that the many clear verses greatly outweigh the few unclear verses, that Jesus is, as the scriptures themselves declare, the Son of God. If we say a son can be His own Father, what's to stop us from saying God is Martian? Once we abandon the normal usage of simple words like "father" and "son" the sky is the limit!

God bless you!

There are mistranslated verses to fit false council teachings in every trinity translation. Those translations contradict themselves.
The Word-LORD-all capitols does not belong in the NT-YHWH( Jehovah) belongs at every spot-GOD or LORD all capitols is. That is where much confusion arises in some.

 

[Keiw]

Correction:

Gen 19:24 "Then The LORD (Jehovah, The SON) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire From The LORD (Jehovah, The Father) out of heaven"
+
500 Plain And Clear Scriptures For The SON, JESUS CHRIST Is Almighty God!

GRACE And Peace...

YHWH(Jehovah) is mentioned 2 x in that passage. Jesus is not mentioned.

 

[Keiw]

Oh, my. Nope.

Wisdom and understanding are being poetically personified in Proverbs 8, Keiw. And, clearly the personification of this very desirable thing is as a woman. This is clearly evident at the opening of the chapter:

"Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud..."

And God was never, ever without wisdom, even from eternity past.

With that said, Jesus is wisdom personified: He Himself says that He is the truth (as well as the way and the life). And the clear implication here is that Jesus is eternal, from eternity past to eternity future.

Grace and peace to you.

Prov 8:22--produced me as the beginning of his way( creation)25: i was brought forth as with labor pains( created direct) 30: then i came to be beside him as his master worker( created all other things through this being) i came to be the one he grew especially fond of.34: Happy is the man that is listening to me--0 doubt this is the being sent by God, named Jesus as a mortal-1Cor 1:30--Jesus became wisdom.

 

[Rich R]

There are mistranslated verses to fit false council teachings in every trinity translation. Those translations contradict themselves.
The Word-LORD-all capitols does not belong in the NT-YHWH( Jehovah) belongs at every spot-GOD or LORD all capitols is. That is where much confusion arises in some.

Yes on YHWH. That is indeed the name of the one true God. And you are right about it being a bit confusing if we read most English translations. That's why I had to get into the Greek. Anyone proficient in Greek would have to agree with me. That's just how it is. Greek was probably the most precise language ever. Like I said, it might take a bit of work to get to the meat of things, but we are supposedly workmen who rightly divide the Word (2 Tim 2:15).

I'm sorry, I didn't write the Bible, I'm just point out what it says. I'm not even "translating" anything. All the verses I quoted just say what they say.

I don't think I'd be far off in saying you didn't really dig into what I wrote. I say that because it is just too much to digest in one sitting. I know it took me many hours of study, comparing verse to verse, to arrive at my conclusion in the matter. Of course, you could just say from the git-go that it's all lies, but you really wouldn't know without spending some time in serious study and honest introspection.

But everyone is right in their own eyes, so maybe I'm missing something. Which verse do you think I'm mis-translating? What would be the correct translation?

God bless.

 

[Kermos]

Luke 1:34-35 says Jesus would be the Son of God. Read the end of verse 35 very carefully.

The passages cited in the next paragraph must be taken as a cohesive whole.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Luke recorded that Gabriel said to Mary "The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

The passage indicates God's powerful overshadowing as the cause of Mary carrying Jesus; therefore, the Son of God advents from God, and the Son of God's advent must not be confused with the Son of Man's lineage.

The previous verses also say Jesus would be descended from David. David was a human. God did not descend from anybody let alone a human.

In general, Luke is saying that Jesus would born by the miracle of God implanting a sperm in Mary's womb. That would mean that, like Adam, Jesus started out perfect. Adam chocked but Jesus didn't. Jesus, also like Adam, had free will. He could have disobeyed God at any time, but he didn't. That's why it could be said he was tempted just like us and that he shared our infirmities. He was certainly not a "mere" man.

Again, the passages cited in the next paragraph must be taken as a cohesive whole.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Jesus was born by the virgin Mary, and Mary is in the lineage of David (Matthew 1:6, Matthew 1:16); therefore, the Son of Man's lineage includes David, and the Son of Man's lineage must not be confused with the Son of God's advent.

John 8:58 says nothing about God. It talks about Jesus and Abraham. There are many other people in the Bible who said the words, "I am." None of them are God either. John 8:58 must mean something else.

Since the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

By this we know that Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 includes God, after all, the Son of God advents from God (Luke 1:35).

See that two cited passages in "Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God" are scripture with scripture.

John 20:28. I already covered the meaning of the word "god" to the Ancient Near Easterner. I also showed how the scriptures (Corinthians) say there are many gods. Not all gods are Yahweh though. There's only one Yahweh.

Your words convey that you think that there are multiple gods - YHWH God being one and Jesus being the second.

The "Ancient Near Easterner" meaning of god to be any god other than YHWH does not impact the Apostle Thomas' use of the word God which Thomas used in "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28) because Thomas knew "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so Thomas exclaimed that Jesus is YHWH God.

Any other use of the word god by Thomas would have been a flagrant violation of the Word of God recorded in Exodus 20:3 directly to the very Word of God Himself (John 1:14).

See that three cited passages in "Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God" are scripture with scripture.

I don't see the phrases "he speaks as truly man" nor "God persons" in the scriptures. I wouldn't want to build a doctrine on them. The very idea of a god-man, though often found in Pagan literature, is never found once in the scriptures. It's a terrible phrase to apply to God's only begotten son.

Each of these passages of scripture specifically mention each person of God, such as proper noun or pronoun, Genesis 1:26 (plurality of persons in the One True God), Isaiah 48:16 (all three persons in the One True God mentioned), Romans 1:7 (person of the Father), John 8:58 (person of the Son, referring back to Exodus 3:14), and John 15:26 (person of the Holy Spirit).

I use person here to mean personification, existence, a word for humans to interface.

The Word of God reveals that YHWH God is the person of the Father and the person of the Word and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:29 says Jesus was the first born among many brothers. I don't see that saying Jesus is God. Read what's written and the book will make way more sense.

Romans 8:29 says that Jesus is the firstborn among many brothers, so the Son of Man is the firstborn among brothers who are born of God persons in the Assembly of God.

I don't recall writing that Romans 8:29 indicates that Jesus is God.

Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the image of God. Jesus once asked whose image was on a coin. The answer was Caesar's image. The coin was not Caesar.

In Colossians 1:15, Paul refers to Jesus in the Christ's capacity as the Son of Man, so Paul's phrase of "image of the invisible God" matches with "Son of Man".

See post #361 in this thread for the scriptural exposition of Colossians 1:15.

John 3:3-8 talks about being born again. Nothing there about Jesus being God. Just read it without introducing extraneous ideas.

All the citations in the parentheses, Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, and John 3:3-8, are supplied as scripture for the preceding statement.

In fact, the entire paragraph that cited these passages was about Jesus as the Son of Man, not as Son of God.

Precisely! That is why the son is not God. If the son were God and the son has a God, then by sheer logic God would have a God.

Let me clarify this for you based on scripture already provided.

The Father is God, and God does not have a god. The Son of God is God, and God does not have a god. The Holy Spirit is God, and God does not have a god. The Son of Man has a God, and this God is God the Father. Tne person of God the Father and the person of the Son of God and the person of the Holy Spirit are the One True God, that is, YHWH God.

John 10:30 says Jesus and God are one. Later in John 17:11 & 17:21 it says we are one with God. Maybe being "one" doesn't mean the two things are actually somehow one thing. It'd be worth considering. Otherwise we have to say we are God also. Not something I'd care to say!

The context of Jesus' words "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) is in Jesus' capacity as the Son of God, that is, YHWH God (see John 8:58 as well); on the other hand, (1) the verse "Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are" (John 17:11) is Jesus speaking about unity among many brothers to be one in the Assembly of God (Romans 8:29), (2) the clause "that they may all be one" (John 17:21) is Jesus speaking about unity among many brothers to be one in the Assembly of God (Romans 8:29), and (3) the passage "even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us" (John 17:21) is Jesus indicating unity yet Jesus does not mention the word "one" specifically with respect to the brothers and God.

Genesis 1:26 does not mention Jesus nor the holy ghost.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The "Us" refers to "God", so the "Us" is "God". The "Us" is exclusively the One True God.

The word "God" in Hebrew is "Elohim", and Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Thus the plurality of "Us" match precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

continued to post #373

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #372

If it did say Jesus was God, it would create many problems with verses I've already mentioned.

Truly the problem of saying that Jesus is not God causes tremendous contradictions within the scripture as aptly presented.

One part of God know things other parts don't know (Mark 13:32 specifically says the son does not know something the Father does know)?

Jesus in His capacity as truly Man does not know (Mark 13:32), yet Jesus in His capacity as truly God does know all things (John 16:30).

One part is good but the other isn't (Luke 18:19), though supposedly they are the same?

In effect, Rick R, you convey that Jesus said "Why do you call Me good? I am not good. No one is good except God alone", so see that you add something like "I am not good" to scripture.

In fact, Jesus says "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 10:18), so Lord Jesus includes Himself because He is truly God, the Son of God.

Lord Jesus includes Himself in being good for we citizens of the Kingdom of God proclaim that King Jesus is good under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.

Notice, Jesus does not exclude Himself from being good, but you convey that sinless Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:21) is not good, yet being sinless is good!

have different wills (John 5:30, Luke 22:42)?

The person of the Father is not the person of the Son; nonetheless, the person of the Father and the person of the Son are One True God (John 10:30).

How can these be made to agree with Jesus actually being God. Again, the only way to do that is to ignore them or twist words and grammar beyond anything recognizable as our God given common sense.

It's not common sense that leads to understanding scripture.

God's indwelling Holy Spirit causes us believers to understand scripture (2 Peter 1:20-21).

Who is the "us" in Genesis 1:26. Study the "heavenly host." I'd suggest you start with Luke 2:13. Hint: it has a lot to do with angels and other spirit beings God created. It's a really neat study. I think you'd get blessed.

Your words convey that you think that YHWH God is a created angel.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" (Genesis 1:26).

The "Us" refers to "God", so the "Us" is "God". The "Us" is exclusively the One True God.

The word "God" in Hebrew is "Elohim", and Elohim represents God in plurality, that is, One Being called God in multiple persons.

Thus the plurality of "Us" match precisely with the plurality of "Elohim" ("God"); therefore, the "Us" is representative of the person of the Father and the person of the Word of God and the person of the Holy Spirit of God.

There are NO created creatures in "Elohim" nor the "Us" in Genesis 1:26.

Isaiah 48:16 mentioning three persons somehow makes them actually one person?

Three persons are mentioned in the Word of God in Isaiah 48:16, and these three persons are One God, not one person as you strangely promote, but One True God - YHWH God.

Daniel 3:16 mentions Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Are they actually God?

Your spurious question does not deserve an answer.

Romans 1:7 specifically calls God our Father and Jesus our Lord. God is certainly our Father and Jesus is our Lord, but why does that make them the same person? Two people, a God and a Lord. To make them the same person would again require us to abandon the meaning of words and grammar. If we did that, we could probably make the Bible say God is a Martian.

God is Being, and God is the person of the Father and the person of the Son and the person of the Spirit. Scripture references are above.

One God being three persons, but not one person being three persons.

John 15:26 does mention God, Jesus and the comforter. That makes them no more one person than Daniel makes Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego one person. When the Bible speaks of three people it is talking about three people, not one. It often talks about one, so God does know the difference. We should also. It's not that difficult.

You keep promoting the idea of one person being three persons. Your promoted idea does not match scripture nor that which God has me here proclaiming. Scripture reveals One God being three persons.

God is Being, and God is the person of the Father and the person of the Son and the person of the Spirit. Scripture references are above.

In general, the trinity problem arises when we fail to read what's written without injecting outside ideas. Most of the trinity proof verses say nothing at all about a trinity. Too many read a verse that talks about three people and immediately make those three somehow actually one person. Too many read John 1:1 as, "In the beginning was Jesus. Jesus was with God and Jesus was God." Well, that's just not what God inspired John to write. God used the Greek word "logos" not "Jesus." Few take the time to understand what the word "logos" actually means. Suffice it to say that substituting mans words for words that God used is not the best idea out there.

The deathly dangerous idea that Jesus is not God is based on humanistic perspectives, not the Word of God.

For example, in John 1:1 the Apostle used the Greek word "Logos" that translates to English as the word "Word", so the verse reads:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The Apostle continues the passage revealing that Jesus is the Word:

"the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

Not only that, but the Apostle reveals that the Word created all things, so the Word Himself it's not among created things:

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3).

Furthermore, the clause "the Word was God" (John 1:1) indicates Jesus deity as YHWH God; otherwise, the clause results in at least two gods, with one being YHWH God and another God being Jesus.

Not only is that is a violation of "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3),

But that is a denial of the Word of God "I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no god" (Isaiah 45:5).

I was Trinitarian at one time and now I'm not. I've seen it from both sides. Though I supposedly believed the trinity (gotta fit in you know) it never made one iota of sense to me. It can't make sense to anyone. God designed our brains in such a way that it couldn't make any sense. When I finally learned and believed the simple truth that there is only one God and that He sent His only begotten son to save me, the Bible made way more sense and the story went from a grainy black and white to a most brilliant technicolor. Of course I love seeing other Christians experience the same realization, but some do and some don't. Doesn't change my love and willingness to serve all my brothers and sisters in Christ. That includes you my brother!

God bless

One God is three persons. Such a marvelous mystery! After the mystery is blessedly revealed by the Spirit of God, then by God's grace the revelation endures in the born of God person for God's glory.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here are some specific scriptural instances that prove your error:

• Paul explained the firstborn in relation to the born of God persons (John 3:3-8) in this passage related to Colossians 1:15 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).

Who are Christ's "brothers"? They are the same ones whom God calls his "sons"....so can Jesus be both 'Father' and 'brother' to the same persons?
In the illustration of the "sheep and the goats", Jesus refers to those who are his "brothers" as well as to those who support them....there are two separate groups who are both Christians, but Christ's "brothers" are his "elect".....those who support his brothers in their trials, worship the same God and serve the same "Lord".....
1 Corinthians 1:2...
" To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours".
There are two different groups of Christians.....one group "elected" to heaven ("saints"), and the others supporting them here on earth.

So how is Jesus "firstborn" among them? He was the first human to a die a mortal death and be raised as a spirit. Just like his "brothers" who were "baptized into his death" were to rise in the same way...."born again" in a new spirit body as a "new creation".

Jesus is the beginning of creation (Revelation 3:14) and the firstborn of creation in that:

• "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3), SO THE SON OF GOD, JESUS, BEGINS THE CREATION AND COMPLETES THE CREATION (REVELATION 3:14).

• "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15), SO THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, IS THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE BORN OF GOD PERSONS (JOHN 3:3-8).

Since Jesus as "the Word" was "with God" "in the beginning"...what is this the "beginning" of?
An immortal and infinite God has no beginning or end.
As "the only begotten son of God" the very fact that he is...
1) a "son"...and
2) a "firstborn" and "only begotten" can mean only one thing......the Father as his 'begetter' had to have existed first in order to bring him into existence. Revelation 3:14 acknowledges this fact.....this is Jesus himself declaring that he is "the firstborn of all creation"......the very first and only direct creation of his God and Father. The son then had the privilege of constructing all things, which were made "through him and for him". That makes absolutely no sense if Jesus is God. Did he make creation 'through himself and for himself'.....?

As has already been shown to you many times....Proverbs 8:22-26; 30-31....is "wisdom personified" which is readily acknowledged by scholars as referring to the pre-human Jesus....(1 Corinthians 1:24, 30)
If this is speaking about actual wisdom, then being "brought forth" or "born" cannot apply, since God has always been wise.....it is not something acquired but something he always had.

“The Lord created me as the firstborn of his ways,
before the oldest of his works.
23 I was established in the earliest times,
at the beginning, before the earth.
24 I was brought forth when there were no ocean depths,
when there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 when he had not yet made the earth and the fields
or the mass of the world’s soil. . . . .

30 then I was beside him as a master craftsman,
and I was his delight day after day,
exulting in his presence continually,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of men."

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

There is not a single passage of scripture where it says Jesus was half man and half God. Jesus was mortal which allowed him to die the same death as Adam. That was the redemption price....a sinless mortal life for a sinless mortal life.
If Jesus was the immortal God, then not only was he NOT the equivalent of Adam.....but death for him was not possible.....so Jesus can only be one or the other....he cannot logically or scripturally, be both man and God.

• In Revelation 3:14 we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of truly God, Almight Creator of Heaven and Earth.

• Since Jesus can say one sentence with multiple meanings; therefore, in Revelation 3:14, also, we find Christ referring to Himself in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the Beginning of the resurrection among many brothers born of God for He says to the self same assembly "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21). Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).

Nice tap dancing. Just because Jesus sits on his Father's throne means nothing more than it did to say that of King Solomon and his father David who were also said to 'sit on God's throne' as rulers of God's people.

Jesus is the appointed King of God's Kingdom.....his coronation was foretold in Daniel 7:13-14.
"I continued watching in the night visions, and I saw One like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was escorted before Him.
14 He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom;
so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away,
and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed."

Jesus would receive authority from his God and Father to rule the whole earth, but not until Daniel's prophesies were fulfilled in this "time of the end".
If Jesus was God, why does he need authority from his Father? (Matthew 28:18)

In Colossians 1:15 we find Paul referring to Christ in His capacity of the Son of Man - He is the firstborn after the crucifixion among many brothers born of God. Jesus is the leader among the Assembly of God (God's Ecclesia).

Just read what it says....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"......no spin required.

Colossians 1:15 does not state that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was created.

But Revelation 3:14 does.
"the ho Beginning archē of ho God’ s theos creation ktisis."
Again....no spin required.

Revelation 3:14 does not state that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was created.

He is the "beginning" not the "beginner" of God's creation. The only roadblock to believing what is clearly stated in the Bible is the doctrine of the trinity which was not even in existence when John wrote his Revelation.

How did God deliver the Revelation to John? It came from God to Jesus who in turn presented it to John by an angel. The chain of command is clear....if Jesus was God why did his other equal self need to give the Revelation to Jesus to give to John? Where is the equality? (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58)

You have been shown so many times that John 8:58 has no connection whatsoever to Exodus 3:14-15. Jesus said "I am" so many times without ever claiming to be God. You accuse others of not telling the truth.....but you yourself cling to things that are not true.

so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He is YHWH God for there is NO other (Isaiah 45:5).

"I am [יְהֹוָה֙] and there is no other; besides Me there is no God:"
And there you have it....as the Shema says....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד"
There is only "one YHWH"...not three. None of the OT prophets ever believed that the Messiah was going to be God incarnate.
None of Jesus' apostles believed that Jesus was anything other that what he said he was....."God's son". To them there was "one God, the Father". (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

There is more scripture that destroys the trinity than supports it.....but we don't expect those tangled up in the 'weeds' to be able to see what is clearly written.......(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

 

[Kermos]

Yes, Colossians is talking about the new creation of Christ in us, the body of Christ. It is not talking about the creation of Genesis 1. Good point.

I'm not sure who said Jesus was created, but it wasn't me for sure. As you said, he was the firstborn which does not mean created. Two different things.

Col 1:16,

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The first "by" is the Greek word "en" which basically means all things were created in him. Many translations say "in" instead of "by" and they are more correct. A close study of the Greek word "en" will reveal that it means all things were created with Jesus as the focal point. Jesus was the focal point of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1.

The second "by" is the Greek word "dia" which literally means "through." It indicates agency. Jesus was God's agent here upon earth. Check out how the Hebrews understood agency. To them a man's agent was basically identical to the man who sent him. Whatever the agent did or said was considered to be what the one who sent him said or did. I'm not making this up.

The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowsky, G. Wigoder, 1986, p. 15.

“Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Craig S. Keener on John 5:30.

“Jesus is thus a faithful shaliach, or agent; Jewish law taught that the man’s agent was as a man himself (backed by his full authority), to the extent that the agent faithfully represented him.

The idea that Jesus was God's agent should be used instead of Jesus being God. The sender was God and the agent He sent was Jesus. When you consider the meaning of agency, it is easy to understand Jesus' statement, "He who has seen me has seen the Father." The Jews would have had no trouble understanding that. Jesus was God's agent, the image of God, the one who ALWAYS did God's will, but none of that makes him God.

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

This verse screams "agency." An agent and his sender would undoubtedly have different wills, but a true agent will ignore his own and carry out that of his sender. This is a beautiful example of Jesus being true to his Father despite his own wishes. Jesus' will was not to die. He asked God if that cup could be passed up (three time actually) but he said that he'd ignore his own will and follow that of his sender, God (Luke 22:42). What a guy! Hero of heroes! I'm sure glad he made that decision!

And then when I think he did it by his free will to save a moron like me, WOW! What can you say about that? There are no words for that much love.

Would it be a big deal if God obeyed Himself all the time? I wouldn't think so. Would it be a big deal if a man who was tempted just like me and suffered the same infirmities as me obeyed God? Incredible fete!

Would it be a big deal if God believed Himself that He'd raise Himself from the dead? Again, I wouldn't think so. But what about a man tempted like me and shared my infirmities believing God would raise him from the dead? Now that's really amazing!

Jesus is not a "mere" man. In truth, no man is a "mere" man.

Ps 8:5,

For thou hast made him (man) a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

"Angels" is the Hebrew word "elohiym." Amazing as it may seem, all men were created just a little below a god. Remember I said the Bible talks about many gods? Well man was made just below the other gods. Not too bad, eh?

God put man in charge of the earth in Genesis 1:28. That truth has profound implications in our discussion. Why? Man got us into trouble and it would take a man to get us out of trouble. God couldn't just take back the dominion, come down to earth right away, wave some kind of magical wand and make things right again. God was NOT in charge of the world then, nor is He in charge now. He will be, but not yet. When He is in charge the world will be a much better place. We're waiting for Jesus to return and set up the millennial kingdom where righteousness rules, not man's depravity. Something to look forward to for sure!

God bless

In the recent post #372, God had me meticulously address a multitude of your reservations to a more comprehensive post of your's.

The similarity of the concepts you present between your current post and your prior post means that the ground has already been covered that demonstrates your concept about Jesus diverge dramatically from the Word of God.

For example, you wrote of agency in your post, and the concept of agency has been covered previously and in this post below, see the explanation about the Son of Man.

The divergence includes your opposition to the scriptural fact that Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

Another scriptural fact from which you diverge is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

The New world translation corrected the errors after many men studied and information became more abundant. Otherwise this couldnt be a truth-Daniel 12:4. No one else made corrections.

The people in the Watchtower Society design, develop, and promote deceptions that lead themselves and other people astray from the Truth (John 14:6).

Such people alter scripture, and they claim their humanistic writings are required for salvation and for knowledge.

It is written of such people "evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Truth (John 14:6) according to the Word of God is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

 

[Kermos]

Creation occurred at the beginning not at a crucifixion.
The LORD( YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus)-- proves he is not YHWH.

You are breaching the context of the word "creation" in Colossians 1:15.

The phrase "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 refers to all the born by the Spirit of God persons after the crucifixion of Christ, He being the "Firstborn of all creation".

The context is clear as we look at other verses in Colossians 1 - please take note of the word "increasing".

"which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as in you also since the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth" (Colossians 1:6).

"so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13-14).

See, the context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

Subsequent to Colossians 1:15, we find "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 indicate that Jesus is Creator, and it is revealed that God is Creator (see Genesis 1 to Genesis 3).

The clause "all things have been created through Him and for Him" in Colossians 1:16 indicates that Jesus was not created because of the phrase "all things" forces the fact that Jesus cannot be a part of the "all things" created - He is separate from the "all things" group thus uncreated.

The phrase "all things" in Colossians 1:16 includes all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

As is typical of Watchtower Society personnel, you add to scripture and you subtract from scripture.

 

[Kermos]

I did read it. You are wrong.
Created through him and for him, by the one who is greater than him=YHWH-the only true God.

Clearly you do not understand the English language sufficiently, in order to understand the concept of context.

The context of "all creation" in Colossians 1:15 is the Assembly of God - "He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15).

In context, the "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 refers to the Firstborn of all the born by the Spirit of God persons.

The context is not the creation around the time of Adam or prior to Adam as verse 15 is approached in Colossians 1.

The context up until verse 15 of Colossians 1 is the creation and increasing of the citizenry of the Kingdom of God, even of the building up of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Kermos]

There is only one kingdom. If you listen to Jesus--Lords prayer Thy( Father) kingdom come. It belongs to the Father. It will come to the earth=Gods kingdom rule. Itwasnt no part of this world back then. He received his crown here at Rev 6.= 1914

Revelation 6 does not state that Jesus received His crown in 1914 AD, so you and your Watchtower Society cohort add to the prophecy recorded by John the Apostle:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).