The Great Commandment

[Randy Kluth]

Perfection is about striving to obey the Commandments. Stumbling is part of the process. You can't stumble when you carry the attitude that it's impossible to be perfect as God has commanded.

One of the main purposes of the Holy Spirit is to assist us to obey God's Commandments.

Those who discourage, and complain about, others keeping the Commandments will never come close to following Jesus properly. Being a Christian (follower of Christ) is a specific attitude and an active faith that we can, and should strive to, do what God expects of us.

If you love Jesus at all, you would rather fall just shy of the mark than to not even give an effort and to go around discouraging anybody else from trying at all. From my reading of Scripture, God sees those Christians as more wicked than those who don't even know a thing about Him.

We must sanctify ourselves from the negative attitudes of the world.

Speaking the truth from the apostles and from the Bible is *not* discouraging people from following the ways of Christ. It is doing what Jesus did, namely assuring us that God understands and places only a "light burden" on us. Why is saying that an attempt at discouraging people from living right?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I know we've all sinned. I'd like a chapter and verse that says we all sin every day.

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

These verses argue for a Sin Nature. And yet in the same letter John argues that we, as Christians, should live in the light, should love one another, and should do right just as Jesus did right.

The clear message is that despite our Sin Nature we can overcome by choosing to live in the light. So you have at least half the message. The other half not so much...

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see it like this: The Lord gave us two commandments from which hang all the others. All the others would be the Ten Commandments. Be aware that the Lord goes on to define those commandments (such looking lustfully at people, fornication, and homosexuality could be definitions of adultery).

I see the 10 Commandments as being a subset of the Law of Moses, which is now only valid as a witness to the life of Christ we must now live. To "be perfect" is to choose to live either by God's Law (during the time of that Covenant) or to live by Christ (in the New Covenant).

Choosing to live after Christ is, in Jesus' eyes, choosing to "be perfect." It is not, however, a denial that we still have a Sin Nature. It is clearly a choice to make to walk the right path, the one Jesus calls "perfect." It is a choice to be a follower of the one who is perfect, namely Christ. To "be perfect," therefore, is to be a follower of Christ.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

RC Sproul on how wicked we are.

 

[GEN2REV]

Speaking the truth from the apostles and from the Bible is *not* discouraging people from following the ways of Christ. It is doing what Jesus did, namely assuring us that God understands and places only a "light burden" on us. Why is saying that, an attempt at discouraging people from living right?

Well, here's the verse from Jesus' mouth:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

And here is your comment:

I can't figure out why people think it's possible to be perfect? Only Jesus was perfect. That indicates every one else is imperfect. Only legalists demand perfection

Hmmmm....

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, here's the verse from Jesus' mouth:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

And here is your comment:


Hmmmm....

Hum away, but you're not making a statement at all. Jesus said to be perfect, and he died for sinners. There is no contradiction in that.

Obviously, we are not called upon to choose to live in sin. We are called upon to live in Christ, who is perfect. To "be perfect," then, means to become a follower of Christ, and not a follower of sin.

The problem is, some ultra-sanctification buffs for some reason conclude that Jesus meant that we should "be sinless." It is one think to choose to live in the righteousness of Christ, and another thing to try to be without a Sin Nature. Do you understand?

 

[GEN2REV]

Hum away, but you're not making a statement at all. Jesus said to be perfect, and he died for sinners. There is no contradiction in that.

Obviously, we are not called upon to choose to live in sin. We are called upon to live in Christ, who is perfect. To "be perfect," then, means to become a follower of Christ, and not a follower of sin.

The problem is, some ultra-sanctification buffs for some reason conclude that Jesus meant that we should "be sinless." It is one think to choose to live in the righteousness of Christ, and another thing to try to be without a Sin Nature. Do you understand?

Hmmm...

And how does that make you feel?

Use your words.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hmmm...

And how does that make you feel?

Use your words.

Make a comment, or don't say anything. It annoys me when you don't make a point, and act as if you've made one.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hmmm...

And how does that make you feel?

Use your words.

Let me just ask this of you, so that you make your position clear. Do you believe that
1) we should be perfect, and
2) that we have a Sin Nature?

 

[GEN2REV]

Let me just ask this of you, so that you make your position clear. Do you believe that
1) we should be perfect, and
2) that we have a Sin Nature?

Yes

 

[GEN2REV]

Obviously, we are not called upon to choose to live in sin. We are called upon to live in Christ, who is perfect. To "be perfect," then, means to become a follower of Christ, and not a follower of sin. The problem is, some ultra-sanctification buffs for some reason conclude that Jesus meant that we should "be sinless." It is one think to choose to live in the righteousness of Christ, and another thing to try to be without a Sin Nature. Do you understand?

I understand that you don't understand.

 

[GEN2REV]

Make a comment, or don't say anything. It annoys me when you don't make a point, and act as if you've made one.

The bottom line is this:

As long as you hold onto your OSAS/Eternal Security comfort blanket for dear life, we could go through a hundred pages of this back and forth and you still won't understand.

That's it. There's no getting through to you until you see that Christians can be lost. And the Bible is crystal clear on that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes

Then you shouldn't have dismissed my arguments without explanation, because those are the 2 positions upon which my argument rests.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I understand that you don't understand.

I do understand, but you dismiss what I say without saying anything. And that doesn't lend to any understanding at all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The bottom line is this:

As long as you hold onto your OSAS/Eternal Security comfort blanket for dear life, we could go through a hundred pages of this back and forth and you still won't understand.

That's it. There's no getting through to you until you see that Christians can be lost. And the Bible is crystal clear on that.

I wasn't arguing OSAS/Eternal Security at all. I was arguing against the idea that we can be sinless at any time before we are raised into immortal bodies. Boy have you moved the argument out into left field!

 

[Bob Estey]

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

These verses argue for a Sin Nature. And yet in the same letter John argues that we, as Christians, should live in the light, should love one another, and should do right just as Jesus did right.

The clear message is that despite our Sin Nature we can overcome by choosing to live in the light. So you have at least half the message. The other half not so much...

Like I said, we've all sinned. Where does it say everybody sins everyday?

 

[Bob Estey]

I see the 10 Commandments as being a subset of the Law of Moses, which is now only valid as a witness to the life of Christ we must now live. To "be perfect" is to choose to live either by God's Law (during the time of that Covenant) or to live by Christ (in the New Covenant).

Choosing to live after Christ is, in Jesus' eyes, choosing to "be perfect." It is not, however, a denial that we still have a Sin Nature. It is clearly a choice to make to walk the right path, the one Jesus calls "perfect." It is a choice to be a follower of the one who is perfect, namely Christ. To "be perfect," therefore, is to be a follower of Christ.

All I know is that when I sin, life gets sour, so I try not to sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Like I said, we've all sinned. Where does it say everybody sins everyday?

I think there is a semantics difficulty in the things we're saying. We're both agreed that Jesus wants us to be perfect by living in his righteousness. And we're both agreed that we have a Sin Nature? If so, the question becomes, How can one live in the perfection of Christ while still having a Sin Nature? What is the evidence of the Sin Nature while we are in obedience to Christ?

The fact is, we can do right in Christ, even as we feel a compulsion to turn to the right or to the left, towards our own desires or to temptations from without. This is just a fact of life. If we have the Sin Nature, as we both agree we do, then every moment of time we have that sin compulsion, and even the smallest amount of selfishness, even as we obey Christ and do right.

So the proof that you sin everyday isn't a matter of proposing that you commit some high crime every day. It is the evidence of selfishness in your life *at all times,* even as you choose to follow Christ ahead of your Sin Instincts, or Sin tendencies.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Explanation: The "Sin Inclination" is evidence that we have a Sin Nature, which inclines towards selfishness and autonomy, tempting us to act against the word of God. The fact it is there from birth or when we awake is indication that it is not a choice, but a "nature."

So this nature drives us in the wrong direction, and is something that we can choose to resist. In resisting our selfishness we show that this nature is always driving us to selfishness. And in driving us in that direction, we compulsively display that selfishness, if only in smaller ways.

All sin to God is bad--even the smallest selfishness. We cannot exorcise this from our life, but must resist it and overcome it.

Gen 4.6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

When we accept Christ, we not only resist our sin tendencies, but we also choose to embrace a new nature that naturally inclines towards righteousness. It is one thing to resist one sin at one time, and another thing to choose a nature that resists sin all the time.

I believe Salvation involves the latter, ie accepting through Christ a new nature that chooses to fight sin all the time, wanting always to do right. So the fact is, we do show evidence of selfishness throughout our lives because the Sin Nature is within us. And this causes us to display selfishness and autonomous separation from God's word if only in the slightest ways.

Nevertheless, all sin is wrong, and we must regularly confess our failures in relationships with God and others, because we are always going to disappoint them to some degree. We aren't all just martyrs! We have to admit that we are selfish and don't always respond properly. I hope this helps you understand my own position?

 

[GEN2REV]

I wasn't arguing OSAS/Eternal Security at all. I was arguing against the idea that we can be sinless at any time before we are raised into immortal bodies. Boy have you moved the argument out into left field!

I'm well aware and I wasn't changing the subject, I was actually going deeper to the underlying source of your misunderstanding.

Yes, I believe Jesus wants us to strive for perfection - just as He said. That's the reason He gave us His Spirit that He had primed by living a perfectly sinless life, obeying every one of the 10 Commandments.
John 15:10

Yes, I believe we have an enduring sin nature. That is why we need that Spirit to help us to obey God's Commandments. You have to understand that He changes our hearts when we are given the Holy Spirit; He actually places the desire to obey within our hearts and writes the Commandments on our hearts so there is no misunderstanding on our part - no excuse. Of course we still stumble, but as I have stated repeatedly, it is NOT a stumble if one is not even attempting to walk upright; it is then habitual sin - sin that has been accepted and embraced. Very, very different.

That brings us to OSAS/Eternal Security. You believe, as you stated, that perfection is simply the decision to come to Christ. Correct? That's almost exactly what you stated. And your implication there is that once somebody makes the decision to come to Christ, and be saved, that's it. They're saved. No more possibility whatsoever of being lost. In that view, there is no need to obey anything. No need to strive for anything. Do you see the contrast there?

What is there to even fight for if OSAS is true? What is the point in any of this discussion in this thread if OSAS is true? None.

And that is what SO many have been blinded, and fooled, into believing. It is absolutely false and it doesn't align with Scripture in the least.

ALL Christians are engaged in spiritual warfare until we take our final breath.

Period.