A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[David in NJ]

And Jesus replied, John 8:25 (WEB), "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning". And what had he been saying? Had he said "I am God" or "I am YHWH"? No. He had been saying that he was the Son of God. John the baptist testified that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1:34); demons said he was the Son of God (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, Luke 4:41); Satan said Jesus was the Son of God (Matthew 4:3,6); even the centurion at the cross recognised that Jesus was the Son of God (Mark 15:39). Jesus clearly claimed it too, e.g. Luke 22:70 (WEB):

(70) They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.”​

and John 10:36 (WEB):

(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
​

Peter confirmed it, and Jesus said that he was blessed because he believed it, Matthew 16:16-17 (WEB):

(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

John declared it, John 20:31 (WEB):

(31) but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.​

Paul taught it, Acts 9:20 (WEB):

(20) Immediately in the synagogues he proclaimed the Christ, that he is the Son of God.​

Hebrews 4:14 (WEB):

(14) Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let’s hold tightly to our confession.​

Yes. Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God YHWH, who YHWH anointed to be mankind's saviour and to be king over YHWH's kingdom, the Messiah that was promised to the Israelites.

keithr, the Beginning is Genesis - this is what and where the LORD is speaking of to the Jews and jw's and lds, and it goes right over their heads.

Don't be one of them.

 

[David in NJ]

And Jesus replied, John 8:25 (WEB), "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning". And what had he been saying? Had he said "I am God" or "I am YHWH"? No. He had been saying that he was the Son of God. John the baptist testified that Jesus was the Son of God (John 1:34); demons said he was the Son of God (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, Luke 4:41); Satan said Jesus was the Son of God (Matthew 4:3,6); even the centurion at the cross recognised that Jesus was the Son of God (Mark 15:39). Jesus clearly claimed it too, e.g. Luke 22:70 (WEB):

(70) They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.”​

and John 10:36 (WEB):

(36) do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’
​

Peter confirmed it, and Jesus said that he was blessed because he believed it, Matthew 16:16-17 (WEB):

(16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
(17) Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.​

John declared it, John 20:31 (WEB):

(31) but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.​

Paul taught it, Acts 9:20 (WEB):

(20) Immediately in the synagogues he proclaimed the Christ, that he is the Son of God.​

Hebrews 4:14 (WEB):

(14) Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let’s hold tightly to our confession.​

Yes. Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God YHWH, who YHWH anointed to be mankind's saviour and to be king over YHWH's kingdom, the Messiah that was promised to the Israelites.

NO, Jesus is not the only begotten Son of YHWH.

JESUS is the only begotten SON of the FATHER.

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” “I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf.
But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe.
My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.
No one can snatch them out of My hand.
My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and the Father are one.”

And concerning Peter declaring: "You are Messiah the Son of the Living Elohim"
Peter spoke this by the unction of the Holy Spirit who revealed it to him = Peter was not reading from the New Testament Bible like you or i.

 

[jaybird]

Jesus answered, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

So if David calls Him ‘Lord,’ how can He be David’s son?”
No one was able to answer a word, and from that day on no one dared to question Him any further.

what does that have to do with the Jews not believing in the trinity?

 

[David in NJ]

what does that have to do with the Jews not believing in the trinity?

lol - what does john lennon have to do with Christ?

 

[Rich R]

If a name is nothing more then a name the you are still dead in sins and tresspasses.

Then all the OT folks with "el" as part of their name are God? I'm thinking not. Better find out exactly what a name meant to the Ancient Near East.

 

[Rich R]

My apologies for not being clear. I was referring to those who call others (including you) wicked and fools. I replied to you because I am not going to respond to either of them again. That left a wrong impression. Actually I have been very impressed by your restraint and kindness.

Well, after I wrote my post it occurred to me that you may have been talking about the other folks. I wish we could delete posts or I would have deleted that one. Plus it's hard to keep track of who's who sometimes. There's a guy named David in NJ who I think is the one who called us fools. Maybe I got you mixed up with him. Thanks for the note!

In general, I find it interesting that while most Trinitarians are quick to condemn non_Trinitarians to eternal suffering, you seldom see it going the other way. Not that one child of God is better than another. It just seems Trinitarians have very little tolerance. I suppose 2,000 year of tradition is not easy to shake off. We'll all figure it out when Jesus returns!

 

[David in NJ]

Then all the OT folks with "el" as part of their name are God? I'm thinking not. Better find out exactly what a name meant to the Ancient Near East.

Good Afternoon Richard.

The LORD "knew us before we were in our mothers womb." = Do you believe this to be true?

 

[Rich R]

As recorded in John 17:21, when Jesus says "that they also may be one in us", then Jesus linguistically distinguishes between the children of God and God being the person of the Father with the person of the Son with the person of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says "they also may be one" is the children of God.

Jesus says "us" is God.

Jesus used the word "in", not "with", but truly the word "in".

The word "in" represents containment; on the other hand, the word "with" represents inclusion.

You desperately try to change the Word of God into that they also may be one with us", so you are making yourself out to be greater then the Word of God!

But, as you noted, the accurate translation from Greek uses the word "in".

Truly, the Word of God says "that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21); therefore the children of God is distinguished as a group from the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) being the person of the Father with the person of the Son with the person of the Holy Spirit.

We are children of God are in God. We are not God. We are in God. Thus says the Son.

Rich R, you misspelled God's Name, YHWH.

Names are very important, particularly with respect to spiritual matters.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Geez...I thought you would have believed everything I said by now. I just don't understand why you don't....just kidding!

 

[David in NJ]

Well, after I wrote my post it occurred to me that you may have been talking about the other folks. I wish we could delete posts or I would have deleted that one. Plus it's hard to keep track of who's who sometimes. There's a guy named David in NJ who I think is the one who called us fools. Maybe I got you mixed up with him. Thanks for the note!

In general, I find it interesting that while most Trinitarians are quick to condemn non_Trinitarians to eternal suffering, you seldom see it going the other way. Not that one child of God is better than another. It just seems Trinitarians have very little tolerance. I suppose 2,000 year of tradition is not easy to shake off. We'll all figure it out when Jesus returns!

No, DavidinNJ did not call you or others "fools"

i did PM post to the member who said that, and stated that i was not comfortable with that and he explained to me his reasoning, which has ground to stand on.

i did state that the Apostle John, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth, this:'In the beginning.... the Word was God"
Therefore for anyone to corrupt the scripture and change that to "the Word was a god" = fool/foolish
Making a declaration that places "a god" before The God is the act of unbelief and sin just as the LORD/YHWH has spoken: Isaiah ch43

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.

 

[Rich R]

Good Afternoon Richard.

The LORD "knew us before we were in our mothers womb." = Do you believe this to be true?

Yes.

No, DavidinNJ did not call you or others "fools"

i did PM post to the member who said that, and stated that i was not comfortable with that and he explained to me his reasoning, which has ground to stand on.

i did state that the Apostle John, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth, this:'In the beginning.... the Word was God"
Therefore for anyone to corrupt the scripture and change that to "the Word was a god" = fool/foolish
Making a declaration that places "a god" before The God is the act of unbelief and sin just as the LORD/YHWH has spoken: Isaiah ch43

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.

Sorry for the confusion. You seem to be a nice enough guy with a sincere belief in the scriptures. Wish there were more like you.

I don't like the translation, "...the word was a god" either. While it grammatically possible, I think the intended meaning is more along the lines of, "...the word was godly" which is also grammatically correct. It also fits with the overall context of scripture and John's Gospel which he wrote to assure us that Jesus was the Christ and the son of God.

I'm curious, have you studied how the Jews who lived when John wrote understood the logos? It is a term first used by the Greeks around 500 BC. Here's a blurb from Britannica:

logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. logos | Definition, History, & Facts
​

The logos is a plan or the reason behind what someone says about something. It's really simple. God had a plan to redeem mankind and that plan was in His mind from the beginning.

I don't recall the specifics, but I do remember reading that some church father or another began to personify the word logos when it was never meant to be personified. From there it was a quick leap to say it was the person of Jesus. Still, original readers, the early church, would have understood it as a plan or thought process and not a person. In John 1:14 the plan became a reality as Jesus was born and followed the plan to the last jot and tittle. The logos was not Jesus until John 1:14. Prior to that it was a plan in God's mind.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes.

Sorry for the confusion. You seem to be a nice enough guy with a sincere belief in the scriptures. Wish there were more like you.

I don't like the translation, "...the word was a god" either. While it grammatically possible, I think the intended meaning is more along the lines of, "...the word was godly" which is also grammatically correct. It also fits with the overall context of scripture and John's Gospel which he wrote to assure us that Jesus was the Christ and the son of God.

I'm curious, have you studied how the Jews who lived when John wrote understood the logos? It is a term first used by the Greeks around 500 BC. Here's a blurb from Britannica:

logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. logos | Definition, History, & Facts
​

The logos is a plan or the reason behind what someone says about something. It's really simple. God had a plan to redeem mankind and that plan was in His mind from the beginning.

I don't recall the specifics, but I do remember reading that some church father or another began to personify the word logos when it was never meant to be personified. From there it was a quick leap to say it was the person of Jesus. Still, original readers, the early church, would have understood it as a plan or thought process and not a person. In John 1:14 the plan became a reality as Jesus was born and followed the plan to the last jot and tittle. The logos was not Jesus until John 1:14. Prior to that it was a plan in God's mind.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

You said: "The logos was not Jesus until John 1:14. Prior to that it was a plan in God's mind."

This does not agree with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle John, Genesis(Torah/Moses), Prophet Isaiah and Revelation.

There are two ways to approach Scripture #1 with your mind/intellect or #2 heart/mind submission unto Christ

 

[David in NJ]

Yes.

Sorry for the confusion. You seem to be a nice enough guy with a sincere belief in the scriptures. Wish there were more like you.

I don't like the translation, "...the word was a god" either. While it grammatically possible, I think the intended meaning is more along the lines of, "...the word was godly" which is also grammatically correct. It also fits with the overall context of scripture and John's Gospel which he wrote to assure us that Jesus was the Christ and the son of God.

I'm curious, have you studied how the Jews who lived when John wrote understood the logos? It is a term first used by the Greeks around 500 BC. Here's a blurb from Britannica:

logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. logos | Definition, History, & Facts
​

The logos is a plan or the reason behind what someone says about something. It's really simple. God had a plan to redeem mankind and that plan was in His mind from the beginning.

I don't recall the specifics, but I do remember reading that some church father or another began to personify the word logos when it was never meant to be personified. From there it was a quick leap to say it was the person of Jesus. Still, original readers, the early church, would have understood it as a plan or thought process and not a person. In John 1:14 the plan became a reality as Jesus was born and followed the plan to the last jot and tittle. The logos was not Jesus until John 1:14. Prior to that it was a plan in God's mind.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us = the glory of the only begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth.

It is clear that the Father did not create the Word.
Based on the TRUTH - How did the Word create Himself if HE never existed???

 

[Pierac]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created...........
John 1:1-3 ...........the Word was God..................Through Him all things were made and nothing made that has been made.

There you have it - right from the beginning................and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Yep... There you have it.... In the beginning God created... The difference is You claim Jesus... I claim the God of Jesus!

Grab your ankles again! Time for another spiritual spanking!!!

How many times do I need to teach you God has no beginning... Thus we are talking about what God has brought in to time that you and I experience!

So... What does Jesus have to say on this topic???

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he (God) who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Remember Jesus has a God…"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:3).
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, (1Co 8:6)

Jesus really trying to teach you something.... Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word (ῥῆμα/ rhēma) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Please note that the word used here is not Logos as it is used in John 1 but rhēma .

David, Jesus has a God... when will you believe him when He teaches so....

Joh 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John is trying to tell you something Jesus taught .... Something... BIG you don't see...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

WHAT GOD David.... The one in Gen 1:1!

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

You can let go of your ankles now... This VERY Simple lesson is complete! Again, do you have permission from your pastor to post on such matters?
Paul

 

[Pierac]

Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us = the glory of the only begotten of the Father full of Grace and Truth.

It is clear that the Father did not create the Word.
Based on the TRUTH - How did the Word create Himself if HE never existed???

Part 2 of your childish post....

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

Grab your ankles again....
This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.

Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

David Learn to read scripture as it was written and not adding your BIAS into the scripture!! Hope this helps you start to see... that you have no idea what your talking about!!!
Paul

 

[Rich R]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

You said: "The logos was not Jesus until John 1:14. Prior to that it was a plan in God's mind."

This does not agree with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle John, Genesis(Torah/Moses), Prophet Isaiah and Revelation.

There are two ways to approach Scripture #1 with your mind/intellect or #2 heart/mind submission unto Christ

There is actually a 3rd way to approach the scriptures: using our God given mind/intellect along with God's gift of holy spirit which is given at the moment we are born again. Paul told Timothy to study the scriptures (2 Tim 2:15). The word "study" is Greek "spoudazo" which means to be diligent and to put effort into something. It's not just a matter of waiting around until the Holy Spirit (God) suddenly drops ideas into our minds. Our minds are the only way we can learn but we have to use them the way God intended. I'm sorry, but our minds are just not wired to accept a son being the same person as his father.

 

[Rich R]

Part 2 of your childish post....

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

Grab your ankles again....
This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.

Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

David Learn to read scripture as it was written and not adding your BIAS into the scripture!! Hope this helps you start to see... that you have no idea what your talking about!!!
Paul

All good points, but 2,000 years of tradition is awfully hard to overcome. I think that only about 2% of Christians understand that Jesus is the son of God and not God the son. That alone shows how powerful the tradition is. I mean, what could be more simple than Jesus being God's son? Plus there's the verses you mentioned, and many others that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God. Then there's the half dozen verses that explicitly call Jesus a man (Acts 2:22 for example) versus the 0 times he's called God.

 

[Pierac]

You just proved Jesus is Yahweh in your post - thank you

The LORD is my chosen portion and my cup;
You have made my lot secure. The lines of my boundary have fallen in pleasant places;
surely my inheritance is delightful. I will bless the LORD who counsels me;
even at night my conscience instructs me. I have set the LORD always before me.
Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell securely. For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence,
with eternal pleasures at Your right hand.
Psalm16:5

keithr, have you been paying attention???

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever!
Revelation 1:17-18

“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Revelation 22:12-13

David... Really???
I am the Alpha and the Omega.

This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.
Examples:
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6 "Who (Jesus)has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
John 20:17"But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.
It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.
Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever." Remember God has no beginning thus there is no first with God!!! and GOD cannot die so there is no I once was dead.... David!!!

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

How do you come up with this non-biblical crap???
Paul

 

[marks]

"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever." Remember God has no beginning thus there is no first with God!!! and GOD cannot die so there is no I once was dead.... David!!!

I think you are not using the Biblical meaning of death being separation. Physical death is when the soul/spirit is separated from the body.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

There is actually a 3rd way to approach the scriptures: using our God given mind/intellect along with God's gift of holy spirit which is given at the moment we are born again. Paul told Timothy to study the scriptures (2 Tim 2:15). The word "study" is Greek "spoudazo" which means to be diligent and to put effort into something. It's not just a matter of waiting around until the Holy Spirit (God) suddenly drops ideas into our minds. Out minds are the only way we can learn but we have to use them the way God intended. I'm sorry, but our minds are just not wired to accept a son being the same person as his father.

YES - AGREE - and the Holy Spirit will not tell TWO Tales of Truth.

The Evidence of TRUTH is being submitted unto the TRUTH.
The evidence of error is changing the Truth to fit/agree with a falsehood.

In the beginning ELOHIM(Plural/Gods) created............Let Us make man in Our Image according to our likeness = Plural x3

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
It is clear that the Father did not create the Word.
Based on the TRUTH - How did the Word create Himself if HE never existed???

 

[David in NJ]

Part 2 of your childish post....

Observe in Colossians 1 that "all things" created are not “the heavens and the earth” as per Genesis 1:1, but rather “all things in the heavens and [up]on the earth." These things are defined as "thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities." Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to restructure the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church.

Grab your ankles again....
This is the thought as we soon shall see in Hebrews 1 where the Angels are told to worship the Son. It is also the thought that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 3:21-22 where, after “the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who he is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him, " it is the new Messianic order that God has brought in through Christ the Son that is under discussion. Just before his ascension into heaven at the father's right hand of power, Jesus declares that "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matt.28:18). His resurrection has Jesus a new status, "far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come" (Eph.1:21).

All of this is to reiterate that this hymn of praise concerns the new order of things that now exist since the resurrection of the Son. An eschatological shift of the ages has begun with Christ’s exaltation to the Father's right hand. God has "put all things in subjection under his [the resurrected Christ’s] feet" (Eph. 1-22). Paul repeats this thought in the next chapter of Colossians: "and he is the head over [or of] all rule and authority" (Col 2:10). In the words we looked at in Philippians 2, God has rewarded Jesus’ obedient death on the cross by highly exalting him, and bestowing on him "the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:8-10).

It is highly significant that in verse 18 Jesus attains to a supreme position, meaning that it he did not have it already. Thus he cannot have preexisted as God. If he did his final status would be more of a demotion than the promotion described by Paul.

If Jesus was God in the flesh then it is impossible to be a man. He would have been something entirely else. Not a man. This is why Jesus has to learn wisdom, Luke 2:40, Luke 2:52. God is all knowing. He does not need to learn anything. Paul tells us Jesus is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, and something else.

Heb 5:6 "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek." 5 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.

It is an insult to say that God learned obedience! Jesus learned obedience because he was a man, a man like you and me not a hybrid. Most fail to understand the concept of Agency. When you kiss the Agent of the one sent, you are actually kissing the one whom the Agent represents. When you worship Jesus you are actually worshiping the One who sent Him. Thus Jesus comments

NASB Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

David Learn to read scripture as it was written and not adding your BIAS into the scripture!! Hope this helps you start to see... that you have no idea what your talking about!!!
Paul

You corrupt scripture for your own pleasure.
The Holy Spirit exposes your false doctrine of twisting scripture.

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, with a golden sash around His chest
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

This is your fate: Revelation 22:18-19
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.